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The key thing was Cameron and Osbourne had promised to maintain the same level of spending on public services in 2008; so there was cross party support at the time. Only after Nov 2008, did it become a 'Labour' issue.
But no… let’s slag them off, voice our support of Iran, and ignore the enormous elephant in the room
Support of Iran?
Wow.
Lets go headlong into War then - so Brexit won't matter...
We’re polling at 19% and sinking. What should we do?
Let’s slag off the only members of our party who’ve actually achieved anything!
Brilliant! I’ll get straight on it! The next election is in the bag!
Right... that’s that sorted. If anyone needs me, I’ll be on the allotment....
This made me laugh...
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2g66YnD ]LibDems[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr
We’re polling at 19% and sinking. What should we do?
The polling is all over the shop. It's likely to move in and out of favour all of the time and depending on who does the polling.
A few weeks before the Brexit party reared they're ugly heads - Labour had pulled a decent lead.
And I suspect under a G.E matters would move back to stuff like the NHS and Policing which would swing the vote back.
Are you a member? (not as in a cock for clarity)
Be a member of the present Labour Party? are you serious? People are leaving in droves. I’d rather join the local Morris dancing troupe. They’ve more political credibility
I would join them actually, but so far they’ve singularly failed to release a press release slagging off the previous occupant of the club treasurers position for making the sticks too short and thus causing the great Cotswold Morris Ring debacle of 2007. As soon as they start addressing that great injustice then I’m in!
When did that happen?
In the OP:
Blair favoured deregulation of the banking industry – leading to one of the worst crashes in modern history. While spending on public services was higher, his legacy will ultimately be the austerity that followed his failure to stand up to big finance.
They're claiming the crash was due to Labour's deregulation, the crash lead to austerity.
The gold sale cost us about £2bn spread over 3 years
<Sigh> You obviously predicted a massive terrorist atrocity and invested heavily in gold at the time GB was selling? If you didn't how the hell could GB? It only cost us £2bn in hindsight, it wasn't known at the time.
corporation tax cuts brought in by Osborne (during “austerity” remember) which will cost £6bn per year by 2020.
It's a global market and countries all over the world are cutting corporation taxes. Loathe it or hate it if you don't have competitive tax rates companies move to places that do. In the industrial estate I work on three low profile medium sized firms have moved their head quarters abroad (Belgium I think) specifically because they get a better tax deal abroad. That's three firms that now pay zero UK corporation tax. You don't need to be a massive company to shift your HQ abroad. Move 3 or four employees and minibus a few directors to a few board meetings in the new country. It really is that simple. Setting tax in general is about finding the sweet spot on the laffer curve.
Can't really see how you can say it's cost 6bn because you don't know how much would have been raised if it hadn't happened. Could just as easily have saved £6bn if failing to do it had driven £12bn worth of corporation tax away, we'll never know.
It’s pathetic! Which is why the Labour Party are presently polling at 19%. Not a problem Blair ever had to deal with. The treacherous electable bastard
I think it's charming that you speak so approvingly of a man with so much blood on his hands.
I think it’s charming that you speak so approvingly of a man with so much blood on his hands.
You can argue Labour were responsible for the Uk's involvement in Iraq but they were *not* responsible for the 2007/2008 global Crash. It's not about approval or disapproval, that's just what happened.
You can argue Labour were responsible for the Uk’s involvement in Iraq but they were *not* responsible for the 2007/2008 global Crash. It’s not about approval or disapproval, that’s just what happened
I mostly agree, and think the Brown/ Darling response was the right one. Nevertheless, Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation.
As for Blair, I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war. Presumably a few hundred thousand dead brown people is ok because of the minimum wage.
So by your logic, anyone who thinks Blair and Brown were infinitely preferable to another 13 years of Tory hegemony is a warmongering racist?
How’s your revision going for your A Levels? Getting close now.
We could well be living in a socialist utopia by the time you get your results
I mostly agree, and think the Brown/ Darling response was the right one. Nevertheless, Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation.
As for Blair, I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war. Presumably a few hundred thousand dead brown people is ok because of the minimum wage.
Well there will be an election before long and you can continue to punish them for the war and for the mood of deregulation they encouraged. That's the nice thing about democracy **** up and you can be out of government for 11 years, perhaps even 16.
It's interesting that binners characterises Corbyn's supporters as juvenile while the man himself is characterized as senile. Ageism is prejudice, and says much.
Like what..?
Well there will be an election before long and you can continue to punish them for the war and for the mood of deregulation they encouraged
I've no idea what you're talking about: I voted Labour in the last election and will do so next time, because whatever you think of Corbyn, Iraq was absolutely nothing to do with him.
Finger on the pulse of the burning issues of 2019...
Like what..?
Amongst other things, that you're a blowhard who chooses to discriminate on the basis of age, because you're unable to make an argument without referring to people's innate personal characteristics. I strongly suspect that if you were doing the same on the basis of skin colour, you'd be shown the door.
Finger on the pulse of the burning issues of 2019…
You'd know all about those in your middle class enclave. Now, don't you have people to discriminate against?
I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war.
I voted Labour in the last election and will do so next time, because whatever you think of Corbyn, Iraq was absolutely nothing to do with him.
I think you've answered your own question. 😀
I think you’ve answered your own question. 😀
You think that it's a stretch to not blame Corbyn for Iraq? The man who was prominently protesting against it? Err, ok.
You’d know all about those in your middle class enclave
Sick burn is sick.
He’s also not even partly responsible for the inherent problems caused by the Treaty of Versailles or the assignation of archduke Franz Ferdinand
He’s getting my vote!
"Thank you for your vote, comrade"
the assignation of archduke Frank Ferdinand
Secret appointments? I must've missed that bit in history lessons.
You think that it’s a stretch to not blame Corbyn for Iraq? The man who was prominently protesting against it? Err, ok.
I think the gymnastics you're performing to continue to vote Labour are pretty clear. You're shifting the responsibility from the party to one individual within the party as though the cabinet, MPs & party had zero responsibility for the decision and then convincing yourself that because the leader's changed the entire party no longer has any responsibility for Iraq. You're probably also telling yourself that people were mislead in spite of Robin Cook and Claire Short telling everyone *exactly* how it was in plain language. Somehow I think you don't go through those gymnastics when a party you don't like changes leader!
But we digress. This thread is about Labour's tweet about being to blame for the 2007/2008 Global Crash. (Which I'd guess you'd agree with up to a point, hence "Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation".) I'm saying whether that's true or not it's probably not something Labour should be shouting from the roof tops when an election could happen literally any time in the next 2 years.
Labour’s tweet
Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.
I think the gymnastics you’re performing to continue to vote Labour are pretty clear. You’re shifting the responsibility from the party to one individual within the party as though the cabinet, MPs & party had zero responsibility for the decision and then convincing yourself that because the leader’s changed the entire party no longer has any responsibility for Iraq.
So, in summary, you're telling us that Corbyn bears responsibility for Iraq because he's leader of the Labour party. If that's what you wish to believe, crack on.
Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.
Totally. 😀
In no way is it a totally transparent deflection technique to desperately try to stop people thinking that your staggeringly shit!
More abuse... it's a shame that you're so unpleasant.
Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.
If you're struggling, think of them as a sort of Labour equivalent to the ERG.
So, in summary, you’re telling us that Corbyn bears responsibility for Iraq because he’s leader of the Labour party. If that’s what you wish to believe, crack on.
Nope, if I was telling you that I'd have written it rather than writing something different. I'm saying that your post is a good example of the kind of mental gymnastics you mentioned. You've convinced yourself that Labour stopped being responsible for Iraq because they changed leader.
Trump was opposed to the Iraq War. The Republican party is still responsible for it even though Bush is gone and Trump has taken over.
Anyway I think we've explored this enough. It's miles off topic so I'll let you have the last word.
Anyway… IRAQ
😀
If taking the blame for the 2007/2008 global crash and austerity isn't a surefire vote winner, bringing up Iraq ought to hoover up votes like a Dyson on steroids...
You’ve convinced yourself that Labour stopped being responsible for Iraq because they changed leader.
No, I said that Corbyn was not responsible. Please don't create strawmen to support your flimsy argument.
And still the obsession with Corbyn, Blair, Brown et al continues. It reminds me of the take that vs east 17 teenage culture wars. Madness!
Although to be honest I’m a big fan of John McDonnell. He’s quite the comedian in real life, and an extremely sincere, open minded, pragmatic and adept politician. It’s a shame he doesn’t feel his health is up to the labour leadership.
You might need to remember that the Tories we’re constantly pushing for even more deregulation of financial services at the time. And which country started the rot?
The real issue in the UK is the cowtowing to the City and their short term view on what might, or might not be, best for the country as a whole.
Sssssshhhhhh.... the whole slaggging off Blair thing relies on you being wilfully blind to what the alternative was.
Because obviously the Tories would never have gone into Iraq and would have strictly regulated the banking industry
And they'd Have definitely done Sure Start, the minimum wage, built loads of schools and hospitals and loads more besides.
That’s why we hate Blair and Brown. We’d have been so much better off without them. The bastards! Standing in the way of the socialist revolution that Iain Duncan Smith wanted to usher in.
Anyway... I’ve got a sociology lecture to get to. If I get a B in this I can get in to study history and politics at Loughborough
outofbreath
Member
When did that happen?
In the OP:
Nope. Momentum are not the Labour party.
outofbreath
Member
It’s a global market and countries all over the world are cutting corporation taxes.
Ours was already at the low end of the highly developed nations even before Osborne decided to cut it, second lowest in the G8, lower than France, Germany, Spain, Italy, the USA, Russia... But apparently 19% was terrifyingly high as we were barely undercutting Afghanistan and Armenia. 17% is much more comfortable as it puts us on par with Lebanon.
binners
Subscriber
voice our support of Iran
I thought we'd reached peak Binners before but I was wrong. How you can call other people juvenile I don't know, with your constant hysterics, name calling and made up crap.
binners
Subscriber
Sssssshhhhhh…. the whole slaggging off Blair thing relies on you being wilfully blind to what the alternative was.
Margaret Beckett?
So, who’s to blame for the policy of austerity? It’s complicated.
Doesn't it have something to do with the party/government that implemented it?
Sssssshhhhhh…. the whole slaggging off Blair thing relies on you being wilfully blind to what the alternative was.
Ah, so that's your justification for killing brown people.
Anyway… I’ve got a sociology lecture to get to. If I get a B in this I can get in to study history and politics at Loughborough
Do they have any remedial courses on how to be less prejudiced?
So, who’s to blame for the policy of austerity? It’s complicated.
Only the tories can be blamed for austerity. Given a problem that we have too much debt there are various solutions. One is austerity which hits the less fortunate more along with downstream long term affects due to less policing., less care, less support etc,.
Another would have been to have taken measures to hit the well off more (higher VAT on luxury items, increased inheritance tax, wealth tax etc, etc,.)
As for how the situation happened you need to go back to Thatcher/Reagan to get to the root cause.
I'm glad there's a decent austerity thread.
Bet you it won't have the legs of the EU one.
And the vile Gove last night who claims he has a detailed plan how to deal with the poorest in society.
Basically - Soylent Green is set in 2022.
And he has a detailed plan on how to fix everything. So where is he hiding it? You going to do it with the market and lower taxes you madman?
And he wants to put Marxism and Jeremy Corbyn in the dustbin.
Sociopaths.
Only the tories can be blamed for austerity.
...so anyone claiming the crash and austerity were actually Labour's fault would be economically illiterate?
Blair favoured deregulation of the banking industry – leading to one of the worst crashes in modern history. While spending on public services was higher, his legacy will ultimately be the austerity that followed his failure to stand up to big finance.
voice our support of Iran
You do know don’t you that Corbyn was simply repeating what the french and German foreign ministers have said about the Iransituation?
You do know don’t you that Corbyn was simply repeating what the French and German foreign ministers have said about the Iran situation?
Do the French and German foreign ministers have a long history of taking paid work on Iranian state television too?
Therein lies the problem with Corbyn, Galloway and the rest of the simplistic, student-level, 'my enemies enemy is my friend' anti-American placard-waving persuasion. And it's interesting that he broke his usual deep cover to comment on that, but has no comment to make on the Tory leadership, Brexit, a second referendum, the economy, Love Island or anything else that's far more relevant to voters in this country. The ones outside the common room, anyway. He just can't help himself. Its been his default instinct for decades*.
Anyway... back on topic. Austerity is not an economic project. Never was. Never will be. It's a purely ideological one. To the Tories, the dismantling of the state is an article of faith. A religion. Ultimately they would like the state to consist of a selection of small offices of the state, with a minimal staff of bureaucrats that would essentially be there purely to hand out contracts to private companies to provide a basic level of purely essential services. This would allow for huge cuts to taxation for companies and the wealthy
That's why saying labour was responsible for it is a frankly ludicrous statement. Without the 13 years of Blair and Brown, the austerity project would have simply been going on for 13 years longer, with all the implications that would entail. It's that simple.
* Out of interest; if it wasn't the Iranians wot did it, who do you think did? Mossad? The CIA? The Judean Peoples Front?
That’s why saying labour was responsible for it is a frankly ludicrous statement.
Not forgetting the fact the claim is predicated on Labour being the cause of the 2007/2008 global crash which is not the case.