[Closed] KP shown the door

At the expense of Andy Flower though...... 🙁

Wwwhhhhaaaaaaat???

Ridiculous !!! 🙄

Right decision if you ask me, should have been shown the door earlier. If you were in the dressing room after the SA texting incident it would take a lot to trust him as a teammate ever again IMO.

If he'd been a club player after the texting incident he'd have been given a clip around the ear by someone and told to find a new club. I'm not sure why an international team setup should be any different.

As I said, it is a shame. But it is a shame he has been such a nobber for so long that he made it inevitable.

Bikebuoy. Sorry fella, but it's a free trip to Piers Morgan's private sauna for you. You can discuss your blind love of Kevin Pietersen with the great man himself, slapping each other's bare backs as you bond over your common (but misplaced) love!

Good decision - I reckon if the players were honest and brave enough - they would openly agree with it.

Team game needs team players. He has proved he can't be trusted.

Not a bad hitter of course.

The Ego has left the pavilion...

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It's going to appear that he is being scapegoated for the humiliation in Australia. The reality is that he should have been cut loose after he was caught texting his saffer mates in the other dressing room. A prize tosser of the highest order, a shit stirrer and egotist. An immensely talented batsman but a deeply flawed individual.

But....

If Pietersen's England career is over then Cook cannot continue as Captain.

Move on and rebuild, I'm sure we will find out what was going on in the next few months as the books come out

If Pietersen's England career is over then Cook cannot continue as Captain.

Why?

(I don't follow cricket that closely)

Its ironic that in the fall out and arse covering KP has been one of the few to keep relatively quiet. Considering he had a contract until the autumn and wasn't sacked, will be interesting to see what exactly he was supposed to have done to upset the apple cart in Australia and to have caused Giles and cook to change their mind about him.. Unless a compromise was reached. The Press will certainly be after more details. This reminds me a bit of gower being cut short 20 odd years ago.

May as well complete the clear out and get rid of cook the captain.

Two things about saying Cook has to go.........

Firstly, why? Surely this could prove to be a sign of real leadership.

Secondly, who could possibly take over?

Bell has never shown any desire to captain any side (and credit to him for being honest enough not to get pushed into it). Prior is now not 100% to be in the team on merit, plus keeper as captain does not have good precedents. Broad? No way!

Nope Cook stays.

Why?
(I don't follow cricket that closely)

2 reasons IMO.

Firstly, Cook has presided over a thrashing so severe and so complete that it's right that he should be scrutinised. His tactics were conservative at best, his field settings defensive and he clearly struggled to motivate and use his players to the best of their abilities. I could live with that if we'd ground out a draw or two, maybe a narrow win and still lost the series. But we just got thrashed in every game.

Secondly, he clearly cannot control one of his senior players.

Great batsman but the last tour has found him out. Time to step aside.

Edit: who replaces him? Why, one of the senior players of course! Ermm......

The real problem is that Strauss should still be captain. Oh, hang on a minute, back to KP again! 🙄

Cook is Hobson's choice.

Thing is, nobody could control Pietersen - it's not particularly on Cook. Cook's captaincy and tactics during the Ashes were pretty poor though: critics in particular can hold up his use of Panesar in the 4th Test, for example.

But a suitable replacement there is not. Prior's not guaranteed a place, and as above, while Stewart did a pretty good job of being wicket keeper/ batsman/ opener/ captain, it's a heck of a burden.
None of the current crop of bowlers really stand out as being able to manage the distraction of captaincy while bowling, either. Which leaves, erm... Joe Root? I guess the only 'obvious' choice would be Broad, but as above, not ideal.

Probably the biggest real question is will Trott return, the calming grown up influence on the team was probably the most missed this winter.

What about Ian Bell for captain IF Cook goes? Just a thought - he is a fixture in the team.

Why not Broad? He's got a pair which puts him ahead of Cook IMO!

KP clearly is an arse, but he is also by far England's best batsman.
I would expect the captain and coach to be able to manage him for the good of the team. I'm sure they could find 11 bloody nice blokes to pick, but I'd rather we got back to winning ways.

Bell does not want, and never has wanted to captain any team, county or country.

Credit is due to him for being true to himself in this regard.

So Cook it is. Unless we find a Graeme Smith who can come in and captain from the off. Trouble is, for every Graeme Smith there is a Lee Germon (look it up if you don't recognise the name).

"It is about man-management – however disruptive a player is, you can still try to manage most players. But history tells you with Kevin he hasn't really got a foot to stand on – whether it be back in Natal or Hampshire or Nottinghamshire, or Peter Moores or Andrew Strauss or Alastair Cook or Andy Flower, wherever he has been he has been a problem.

From Nasser Hussain (never described as an 'easy' individual to manage either), but then his 'issues' were always caused by a burning desire to win, not seek glory for himself.

This was inevitable, it is a shame it wasn't done a year and a half ago so we would be eighteen months further down the rebuilding process by now........

KP clearly is an arse, but he is also by far England's best batsman.
I would expect the captain and coach to be able to manage him for the good of the team. I'm sure they could find 11 bloody nice blokes to pick, but I'd rather we got back to winning ways.

He is one of the older members of the team and would probably be on his way out over the next year or so anyway, there will be new exciting batsmen to follow who if managed right will not be utter arseholes. No one player is bigger than the team and no individual in indispensable. Basic rules of management.

As with any form of improvement activity it's easiest to see the need when you are at rock bottom, picking a team to move forward based on potential & form rather than record would be a start. Forming a team ethos based on the team not the individual.
[img] [/img]
The contrast of watching this lad come off in Perth having tried to win the unwinable test and looking like he had let the entire team down was a refreshing sight this winter.

So is Captain Cook that more difficult to replace than KP the player?

At least mike has highlighted one, sorry, the only positive from this test winter. 😕

Graeme Swann was saying the other week that he's been as good as gold since he came back. I know I'd rather sit and watch a game if Pietersen is coming in to bat.

How many hours 'till zokes wakes up?

"Whanau"

there are plenty of batsmen, there are very few captains.

It was pointed out by the TMS crew a while back that with the way international cricket works these days (ie a full time job) all the good players go from being promising for their counties/states and then get sucked into the machine and plonked in a team. A chunk of those players would have ended up captaining their sides over a few years and learning how to do it. So now you get a heap of players in the international setup who havn't done much leadership.

The aussies have identified this and their current solution (sure it is going in in England) is to identify players who could be captains and send them through leadership training and try and teach what they would have learned on the field. Still no substitute for the real thing but it helps.

In the short term dropping Cook down the order (there is now a vacancy) may help him to recover some form and take some pressure off him to open and allow him to captain a bit better.

Edit#

I know I'd rather sit and watch a game if Pietersen is coming in to bat.

Hmmmmmm.

Zokes will have to wake up, pull back his KP branded duvet, have a shave in his KP branded (full-length obviously) mirror and decide on a response. 🙂

it's nearly 9am in South Australia he should be around soon....

On a lighter note I watched a great T20 last night - England weren't involved

Will need a bit of TLC, so go easy guys! Could be in a state of shock and grieving.

I'd give more than a penny for Andrew Strauss's thoughts right now.

I imagine it would be a sigh, a shake of the head and thinking (but not saying or texting or tweeting, note) "I told you so".

I get the feeling that there is a lot more going on that no-one is talking about - elephant in the room for me is the IPL, kev's probably told them 'right I'm going to india to play for the entire tournament' and the response has been 'see ya, or rather, not'

I would bet that if you look at his age, the schedule for the next few years then you start to think that his replacement is becoming a priority, and the best way to find someone to take it on is to make the spot permanently available without the previous holder hanging around

Also be aware anyone who is thinking of joining the pro-KP camp, you'll be agreeing with Piers Morgan

Couldn't give a toss. I'd be agreeing with Michael Vaughn also (who happened to say it first), whose opinion on the English cricket team (and for that matter on KP himself) is worth considerably more...

He was instrumental in the removals of two coaches and a captain whilst in the England team, and never showed much contrition.

He was instrumental in winning the ashes four times in six series, also being the top scorer in the two series we didn't win. He helped England to win the T20 world cup, and achieve number 1 status in all three forms of the game. I couldn't give a toss whether the team or the management like a player or players. What I do give a toss is whether they win matches. With KP, they did. Lots.

Zokes will have to wake up, pull back his KP branded duvet, have a shave in his KP branded (full-length obviously) mirror and decide on a response.

My eight day old daughter is more mature than you. (And I have a beard, so no naked shaving fantasies for you either!)

Now you've got your way. What now? Who's the next destructive middle order batsman who can take the game away from the opposition? To single handedly remove a bowler from the opposition's attack?

When Australia had difficult players, they sacked the management, got someone who could do the job, and had the same difficult players whitewash England within six months. What do England do? Sack the best player they have, and hope that Captain Conservative will come good. It had better work, because Bell and Cook aside, there are no other batsmen in that lineup to routinely worry even the Windies at this stage*

*Stokes will hopefully go on to be someone to worry any opposition though, even if he's not good enouigh for our T20 team - another example of our stunning management 🙄

Can't say it's a surprise but sorry to witness the end of an era, however over the last two years Pertersen has been more a dissapoitment with the bat than anything else. Clearly a disruptive presence in the dressing room but I agree with you Zokes, he was England's best and has achieved much, but he's also been a resident, senior player preciding over a huge drop in performance. If you want to re build you don't do it around disruptive players unless they are still performing. If he had hit a double and a couple of hundreds trying to rescue the team then this might not have happened but even with the best batting figures for the tour he gave away his wicket far too easily.

If you're going to make big changes then noes the time to do it, the only way is up from that farce of a tour. Oh and remove Cook? Don't be silly. Poor tour but he still has a huge amount to give and who exactly would you turn to?

I wish him luck but look forward to a new England.

My eight day old daughter is more mature than you.

I kind of agree with Zokes he is the best batsman by far, I think the ECB are going to have to wash the linen in public to put an end to the speculation as to why he has gone.

NUTS!!!

(IGMC)

I reckon KP is on the phone to South Africa, "Howzit Biff, score us a spot in the test side, bru"

Hi zokes, it was a bit unfair of me to take the piss while you were still in bed, but you have to pay the price for living somewhere where the average temperature is twenty degrees Celsius as opposed to Fahrenheit.

I would love to see Pietersen being a good team man and contributing to England wins. But even his batting has become a liability as a result of his hubris at the crease. "You can't bowl to me Peter Siddle, you're not good enough, and I am going to ignore your silly field settings as well because I'm that goo......... Oh bugger".

Whilst he was applying himself a bit at the crease and allowing his undoubted talent to show, he could be tolerated. Nowadays, things have just snowballed to the point where this is a necessary move.

Are you seriously suggesting that England sack everyone in authority rather than drop one player? Do you have any idea how that would end? And by the way (I'm not being provocative, just asking) have you ever played team sport over an extended period, particularly cricket?

The reason I ask is that I have. Twenty years man and boy (intentionally trying to sound like a wise but boring veteran). Cricket is particularly bad for dressing room friction as well as there is just so much time for niggles to build up, even more so if one team member is a prick.

Something major has gone on here. I can't imagine that Swann, Broad and some other are shrinking violets, yet they have not been publicly axed.

I reckon KP is on the phone to South Africa

Hasn't he got a mega-contract in India lined up? (not that I know anything about cricket, just something I heard on TV)

He's not really English anyway...

Yes. But test cricket is where legends are made, and with his gigantic ego he will want to be in that elite. Compared to his peers that have already made it, he's still potentially got 5 years left in him at test level.

Are you seriously suggesting that England sack everyone in authority rather than drop one player?

No, not at all, but it is excellent management (if perhaps unconventional in this modern, drab, scripted world of sport) that changed the team of no-hopers we laughed out of Lord's in July to a team that dropped one match in thirteen games across three formats against us. For the tests, all Australian victories occurred after we had been in a potentially match winning position, getting rid of their top batsmen for not many runs.

Conversely, it's at best complacent, if not downright negligent management that allowed us to fall so far so quickly. Blaming KP is fine, but as Vaughn says, the management should have been up to the task of managing difficult players, and as the past few months has shown, they weren't. Interesting, seeing as it's a task they'd managed quite successfully until the past year or so...

Cook in particular was completely out-captained by Clarke, and indeed there were a couple of catches that came after KP and a word with the bowler (Broady, IIRC) and shifted a couple of fielders whilst Cook wasn't watching. Clearly KP as captain has been tried once already, but appointing him VC would have meant that his experience and ego was used to the best possible outcome. The team of "yes men" clearly isn't working.

Ultimately, the biggest loser here is the England cricket supporter.

(And for the record, no, I haven't played a team sport at any remotely high level. In fact, the last time I played cricket, it was an unwritten rule that you had to field whilst holding your beer! However, I work in a professional, high performing team at work. When you're being paid to perform at a high level, whether you're playing cricket or researching science makes no difference in how you manage difficult team members to get more than the sum of the parts. Recently, the ECB have failed spectacularly in this endeavour).

[i] but as Vaughn says, the management should have been up to the task of managing difficult player[/i]

By perhaps throwing his kit over the balcony? (See Notts 2004)

Best years are behind him and he's failing to adapt to that fact. Let him go to India. Can't remember the last century he scored, and there are more than a few England players with better one day average scores in the last year

Well if KP is set aside I hope they are going to have a full clear out. No one should assume to be safe, including Cook and the management structure that was outclassed. The collective know how of the side plus the various coaches plus the whole of the English media could not get Brad Haddin out.
I am with Vaughan on most of this, though he didn't seem to have a plan for Haddin either.
Broad captain, Cook out until he can score runs, pick on form from the start of the season. If you are going to select a leggie go for Rashid rather than a player still learning their trade - older spinners tend to get better results. Monty is still playing grade cricket to learn more and develop his game, the remainder of the Test team are at home, trying to forget the last four months?

Well zokes, your experience and belief runs contrary to the ethos of the All Blacks who have a track record of outstanding performance sustained over time. They would not tolerate KPs antics, pure and simple.

But that is only one approach. Of course, there are other successful teams that are able to incorporate the mavericks and indeed English cricket had a captain who was a master of that in Brearley. But as time has shown, captains of that calibre are few and far between.

But I have sympathy with your/MVs criticism of the management team. If you chose to pick a maverick then you have to be able to manage him. All this talk of KP needed to adapt is/was bollocks in my mind. He is what he is, for better for worse. A moulded KP is not KP, it is a weak imitation of the real thing. If you are going to incorporate a maverick you need counter-balances elswhere. The management team where unable to provide this and as a result individuals, the team and the supporters suffered. Ultimately the buck stops there IMO.

I was chatting to an ex-England and an ex-country cricketers on the football touch line yesterday. Both admitted that KP was a * with the former saying that he would still have him in the national team but both saying he was disliked widely at the county level. The latter concluded, the only good thing was that he was less of a * than a certain opinionated pundit who was a **** with a capital *!!!

However, I work in a professional, high performing team at work. When you're being paid to perform at a high level, whether you're playing cricket or researching science makes no difference in how you manage difficult team members to get more than the sum of the parts.

I see the comparison, but it isn't the same. A test match side lives with each other as well as works, and if there's a player on that team that starts to cause friction then that friction soon causes blistering. You don't get the chance to go home at the weekend and forget about it for 2 days, the source of the irritation will be there at breakfast, lunch and dinner, 7/7 days, for weeks and months at a time. Spending 2 weeks on holiday with my kids, they irritate me deeply, and I love them dearly. Spending 3 months with KP......

It's a shame that 'the management' haven't found a means to manage him better, but first and foremost his acceptance / integration into the side has to be on the basis that even if he is an annoying ****, his results give him enough slack to overcome that. Unfortunately, his runs* and modes of dismissal, and then saying 'it's the way I play, deal with it' will just have irritated more as opposed to compensating.

* yes, i know he was leading run scorer, but that's like saying I'm a faster runner than Vanessa Phelps. His runs were hardly game changing, other than the fact that he so often gave it away when he had a chance to change games.

It needs to be remembered that Michael Vaughan had the best years of KP - coming into the side for the first time and needing to establish his place. I would imagine he became rather more difficult to manage after Vaughan had retired.

It appears that the dressing room and coaches were not supportive of Pietersen's continuing presence which is very telling.

Paul Downton is nobody's fool. You don't get rid of your best batsman unless you have no choice. I'm sure that as the weeks go by we'll get to learn why he has been cut out.

You don't get rid of your best batsman unless you have no choice

Frankly, Stokes aside, he was the only batsman who looked like scoring [i]any[/i] runs in the last test series. The management had better have a damn good set of batsmen waiting in the academy to replace him and the rest of the misfiring top/middle order. And a damn good reason why they weren't brought on tour instead of three useless beanpoles who height aside, exhibited not one iota of an inkling that they might be able to bowl well at test level in recent months.

I suspect that they don't. I'm afraid throwing away plan A when it is abundantly clear to anyone outside of their caucus that there is no plan B is not a plan. It's bloody-mined stupidity. Sadly I've come to expect no less from the ECB.

The management had better have a damn good set of batsmen waiting in the academy to replace him and the rest of the misfiring top/middle order. And a damn good reason why they weren't brought on tour instead of three useless beanpoles who height aside, exhibited not one iota of an inkling that they might be able to bowl well at test level in recent months.

Being pedantic, they couldn't take three batsmen instead of three bowlers or the squad would have been ridiculously unbalanced.

However, you are right to criticise the selections. Tremlett bowled piss-pace straight up and down filth all summer for Surrey. Finn was in the process of being dismantled and put back together and Rankin was a near novice at this level (and clearly not trusted by the management). Why they didn't select Onions is beyond me - what does he have to do to get a look-in?

I have it on good authority too that Swann knew he was not fit for the tour, but either he alone kept that from the management or they decided to risk him. Either way, not good.

England need Trott back, that is for sure. As to new batsmen, I really don't know, but there are numerous examples of promising young players being blooded in bad dressing rooms and disappearing without trace. At least if they are serious about repairing the team ethic, it should make the integration of any such youngsters easier. Vaughan has become a classic media schmooze now - he will raise his profile whenever possible. He is actually Mark (the smarm) Nicholas's mini-me if you look. Tried his hand at punditry and TV work at the Masters (anyone remember that embarrassing moment with Tiger Woods?) and now feels the need to appear on whatever reality TV shite he can.

The real worry is that Broad and Anderson get the Dukes ball back in their hands this summer and it papers over the cracks.

IF it is to be a watershed, then it needs to be done properly.

Just a thought, but this situation is/was quite similar to the Gooch v Gower blow-up that ran in various forms from 1990 - 1992 and resulted in the end of Gower's international career. As I watched this as a kid who had not played much cricket, but loved watching it, I came down on the side of Gower. The golden boy versus the dour and humourless Gooch.

As time has gone by however I have come to realise that Gooch really had not much choice. Gower (enlisting the hapless John Morris for one infamous stunt) deliberately undermined the team ethic for a whole Ashes tour, batting like a **** into the bargain (remember the one handed flick off the last ball of the session from Merv Hughes that sailed straight to long leg?). Whatever your loyalties or your desire to be 'entertained' you simply cannot condone the deliberate undermining of the team, on the field, in the dressing room or elsewhere.

It is clear that something has happened in Australia that has tilted the balance against the one of the best players in the team - that cannot be something trivial.

Apparently Cook was instrumental in the re-integration of Pietersen after the whole texting 'scandal' thing. Now he has been part of sacking him. I don't think Cook is a devious person or someone who flits from one opinion to another daily - something has gone badly wrong.

The press release wording was interesting. Soundings were taken from some senior players, and evidently no support was coming from them, management or the relatively easy going Cook. We cannot get away from this fact, although ironically a degree of self interest may be at play. If he could have been sacked, perhaps then he should have been as it leaves many questions unanswered if saving him a degree of face and the ECB legal costs.

The problem many will have though is he wasn't sacked, nor even disciplined. His only crime on the face of it appears to be as always a few stupid shots, some of which could be explained and ignores the innings he knuckled down for more than most. The dressing room doors are pretty shut but even so there was no tittle tattle coming out of Australia let alone hard facts. We may never know what happened but there is a whiff of arse covering, about turn and scape goat about it. It could merely have been a build up of gentle undermining from the way he conducts himself, may be unintentional, to go with also being polite and engaging. KP though had no where to turn - if he had not done anything to warrant sacking but not wanted he could merely not be picked for the remainder of his contract which would be not practical for all sorts of reasons and possibly open to a legal challenge. However cutting the contract now is best for both parties especially with a full IPL thus available to him.

Whatever, its just a shame that our greatest modern batsman leaves in this way - and along with other seniors retired or missing is not ideal. Runs were not as consistent in the last year or two but he was still capable of playing some the great innings as seen in India.

It is true to say that Pieterson had the capability to be our best batsman but he does not have the highest average in any of the last six series he has played in. He had the second highest (29.4) in the last series, just, they were all clumped together in their mediocrity. He also had the second highest (38.8) in the home Ashes series but Bell was streets ahead. He was very poor against NZ (28.33), but had a good series against India with an average of 48.28. However this was only fourth best in an exceptional team performance.

So whilst he has an extraordinarily talent, he will enter the pantheon of sports' stars who haven't quite achieved greatness though an inability to maximize it. There is no shame in that, but at 34, on a downward trajectory, you can see why the decision was made.

From the thread title I thought you'd been sacked from your dish washing job!

Sorry "under water ceramics engineer" no offence to any KPs

I'm glad I managed to witness some of his epic batting on the pitch. There were times when he would appear and you just knew the match would change there and then.

He is in my eyes a Hero.

As for the ECB, well a bunch of fuddies in silk ties choking on thier cucumber sarnies on a Saturday afternoon is the overiding image I will take away from this.

I think that the bottom line for Pietersen, as with the rest if us, is pretty simple. If you are going to be ****tish, confrontational and give it the good old Charlie big potatoes every time you had better a. Deliver the goods every time b. Expect to be unpopular in your team and c. Get the blame when things go tits up.

Pietersen has nothing to cry about. His colleagues have been given the opportunity to back him. They haven't. I wonder why that is?

[quote=zokes ]Who's the next destructive middle order batsman who can take the game away from the opposition? To single handedly remove a bowler from the opposition's attack?

I thought we were discussing a replacement for KP? When was the last time he did that, rather than throw his wicket away trying?

I'm a KP fan, very saddened to see him go and left wondering whether there couldn't have been some way to keep him in the England team. However I can see a good argument on a purely sporting basis for letting him go - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/26043333 ]as mentioned by Tom Fordyce[/url], the greats adapt their game when they start ageing, to allow for slowing reflexes and weakening muscles. KP showed no sign of being prepared to do this - if he's unwilling to do so, then his best is doubtless behind him, and it's a downward path from here. If he had played on, then the best we could have expected was the odd cameo when it didn't really matter, with lots of failures at other times.

Yes he top scored in the Ashes, but that's a reflection of the weakness of the rest of the team rather than his strength. The bowling was good, but he didn't get out all that much to unplayable balls. You can't build a team around somebody averaging 29 who keeps throwing his wicket away at the wrong time - that sort of form simply means you lose matches slightly less embarrassingly, not that you win them.

I have to admit that in the course of writing this reply I've persuaded myself that it was the right decision, having thought it wrong when I started typing!

[quote=dannyh ]I can't imagine that Swann, Broad and some other are shrinking violets, yet they have not been publicly axed.

Yet. Or in the case of Swann, did he jump, or was he pushed?

Vaughan has become a classic media schmooze now

Praps. Praps not. I'd still judge his comments pertaining to a team he recently captained, and players within that team as more relevant than most of the noise - be it media speculation or ECB whitewashing.

I think that the bottom line for Pietersen, as with the rest if us, is pretty simple. If you are going to be ****tish, confrontational and give it the good old Charlie big potatoes every time you had better a. Deliver the goods every time b. Expect to be unpopular in your team and c. Get the blame when things go tits up.

Despite all your vitriol last time we discussed this, I'm still struggling to see why it was solely KP's fault we were thrashed so convincingly, including in two forms of the game he wasn't even in Australia for.

I thought we were discussing a replacement for KP? When was the last time he did that, rather than throw his wicket away trying?

Fair enough comment, but Bell in the summer series excepted, when was the last time you saw [i]any[/i] england batsman try?

And media schmooze or not, Vaughn has a lot of sensible things to say in this piece:

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10618396/Kevin-Pietersens-sacking-by-England-is-preposterous-and-we-are-owed-a-proper-explanation.html ]The Telegraph[/url]

Nothing from Strauss on the whole thing? (at least not that I have seen)

The 2 things of the complete thrashing and what KP is up to or has been up to or may have said are different but linked, if you are not liked, can be a dick, are hard to deal with then the only thing left is to do something that makes you needed. He failed in that one - whatever went on after the return from Oz seems to have left people with no desire to take a chance on KP finding some form, perhaps he was reluctant to take on some of the responsibility for his lack of form, refused offers of help or suggestions to go away and work on some stuff?

I still see him as one of the finest hitters of the ball, with a talent that can destroy teams, unfortunately it seems his personality can also destroy the ones he play for.

He is a luxury England can't afford right now, a Ronaldo on a wet Tuesday night in Grimsby for want of a comparison. Looking forward he has 2 maybe 3 years left at the highest level of Test Cricket. So if he takes another 12 months to regain confidence and form then thats 1 year of the "Great" KP playing for England. Looking at Wenger and Ferguson in football one of the things they both demonstrated was an ability to let a star go just before the rest of the world realised it was time.
2 home series are a good place to try other players out and give them a good go. It is time to rebuild.

Nothing from Strauss on the whole thing? (at least not that I have seen)

I think Strauss is probably going to keep his thoughts to himself for the time being.

Read Atherton in the Times yesterday, you may have a better understanding of why and how, without knowing the exact details.

Atherton's piece is some ways lacking a little detail now with suggestions that one or two senior players are somewhat confused by what has happened and Prior called a meeting about Management while on Tour which lead to an argument between KP and Flower. There again Prior hinted about Flower's style in his column a month ago which surprisingly wasn't picked up on much. The problem is Prior was probebly the diplomat and KP shoots from the hip.

KP's recent stats can be played around with as we like. It does seem a slightly odd time to rebuild with what England have coming up in the next 12 months, where his experience would be valuable and which apparently he is always keen to pass on.

Once more we are witness to the ineptitude of the ECB, of the old school tie network placing people into positions of incompetence. Their handling of this whole affair is poor. The media and bike forums are awash with speculation and rumour as to what has gone on. This, IMHO, shows complete disrespect for their supporters, sponsors and most importantly, the team.

I don't really give a toss about KP, Sir Viv Richards was more talented and capable and went on to captain for his country. I'm not convinced about Cook as captain, nor am I about Saker as bowling coach or Gooch as batting coach.

I recall saying on here back in December after the Brisbane test that something was going seriously wrong in the England dressing room, did anyone listen? No!

Told ya so! 🙂

@Scamper - either you read the guardian, or the Guardian read STW...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/05/matt-prior-kevin-pietersen-ngland-row

Nope don't read the guardian, zokes. Prior last month stated the team ethos had changed a bit and gave examples of the little things - espn did a good piece too covering 'body language'. Prior also seemed to indicate that the management were becoming more involved rather than letting the team express themselves. Furthermore, pretty sure that before his resignation Flower also indicated he'd take this even further. Doesn't take a genious to guess how differently prior and KP would conduct themselves especially as I believe prior himself contacted KP off his own back over textgate to discuss what had happened.

It's fun to read the three different articles in the Torygraph today. Very different perspective in the same paper. Oborns's is bollocks though IMO, but fun to read!!!

The plot thickens...

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/26067340 ]Back room dealing.?[/url]

That sounds to me as though KP's agent has done some very clever negotiating, KP's stock value stay's healthy and his book, apparently due to be published later this year will probably reveal all (well, his version of events), thereby ensuring healthy royalties. Possibly as a kind of golden handshake gesture?

aracer.

Swann was never fit for the tour and shouldn't have gone. He probably hoped he could trade on reputation a bit out there. What actually happened is that the Aussies realised pretty quickly he wasn't giving the ball as much of a rip and cashed in. It is worth noting that it is not just our seamers who struggle with the kookaburra ball. If it is anything like when I went on a tour to South Africa nearly 20 years ago, the difference is quite disconcerting.

We played with a Reader ball most often in England, but sometimes a Duke. The seam on the English balls is narrower, [u]but much higher[/u] than a kookaburra. As a result, it is easier to grip (spin or seam) and 'does more' off the pitch.

The first thing that strikes you when you bowl with a brand new shiny kookaburra is how hard it seems. The second thing that strikes you is how quickly that wears off and you are left with something like a tightly screwed up chammy leather.

Anyhow, Swann should haven't even got on the plane in the first place.

I've just read a somethingion of the interview James Whitaker gave to Sky Sports.

How on earth are we in this situation where dropping a player from a sports team has everyone pissing their pants whenever they are asked to even hint at an explanation? Why are [u]teams[/u] of lawyers involved? Can we expect a dropped batsman to consult his lawyers if the management say he missed a succession of straight balls, so the lawyers can scrutinise hawkeye to prove that actually each one was actually an unplayable Jaffa?

I know central contracts are involved, so it is employment law rather than just dropping someone back to county cricket, but FFS.

Well the Wendy's are using lawyers to address a red card. At least cricket hasn't got that extreme 😉

Apparently there's more to come today from the ECB. But they're still not going to be able to say everything. This whole thing is pathetic now. There are loads of angles on this that are just ridiculous.

We are talking about dropping someone from a sports team. It's not a military coup. It's not watergate. I know why no one can say everything, because lawyers are involved. But why are lawyers involved in sport like this?

I would rather know the reasons behind all this than not know. However (on the flip side) I am not entitled to know.

All these so-called cricket fans going "I buy tickets for England matches, so I've got a right to know the reasons for this". No. Buying a ticket for an England game does not entitle you to anything more than sitting in a given seat for a given period of time. No more, no less. Very much like the footie fans who rant and rave about having a right to know what is going on behind the scenes at 'their' club. Nope, sorry. You have a right not to buy any more tickets in the future. You have the right to withdraw your support. That's it.

Anyway, I hope sense prevails and the ECB make a full statement. I have an inkling that if they did, a lot of the support for brand Pietersen might evaporate.

when a sports club forms part of the community of course the fans views are taken into account and are told to a certain extent what is going on.

Scamper. Yes fair enough, but it isn't an obligation.

If they had any sense, they would spill the beans. It has to be said, being humiliated into a 5-0 drubbing by a mediocre team, then sacking (to many) your star player really isn't a good way to get people interested in watching your sport. An explanation might at least give the paying supporter some understanding of what went on. Currently, they're just doing a very good job of reducing the numbers of paying supporters.

It's almost as brainless as selling the rights to Sky in 2005 just after the whole country experienced England wind a cricket match for the first time in about a century. Really, the ECB just need sacking, given their serial incompetence. As has been said, the writing was on the wall way back in NZ regarding England's performance.

Latest ecb bollox: everyone but him has confidence in Cook and flower...

Well people, looks like we're in for a long stint of negative passive cricket with mediocre expectations. Strap yourselves in for series after series without a change in field placement...

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/28/kevin-pietersen-alastair-cook-fear-failure-captaincy-england-cricket ]KP on Cook's Case[/url]

The classic question when dealing with someone you might 'need' but cannot put up with. Is it better to have him in the tent pissing out or outside the tent pissing in? I still maintain that the problem with having him 'in the tent' is that he actually pisses all over the inside of it as well.

I'm not sure Cook's captaincy was that much of a factor in the series loss. The Headingley test featured a ridiculous squandering of the last five wickets to Mathews' crap medium pace. They then shelled simple chances and bowled a load of dross. Basic skills and concentration were the issue.

Not that different from the England football team, really. How can Hodgson be expected to show any tactical nous when his supposedly best player (Rooney) can't control the ball after receiving a simple pass?

The disappointing thing in both cases is that highly rated and highly paid sportsmen don't seem to be able to do the basics.

Th captain has to take some responsibility for that. His own lack of form is playing on his mind in terms of bating and captaincy

KP has an axe to grind - as does shane " WTF do you look like these days mate" Warne so I have no interest in discussing or reading their views.

Great players but I dont respect either.

Cook's captaincy is an issue but, as you rightly say, I think his form with the bat is a bigger problem. Add in the effect of that on his captaincy and there is a problem. But my point is that the higher functions of captaincy (strategy and tactics) are all that an international captain should have to worry about, the players should have the basics dialled.

In the Headingley test, though, the lower order threw their wickets away when we should have batted them out of the game, we shelled catches left right and centre (they were expensive drops as well) and the bowlers just bowled the wrong length. I'm not sure an international captain should need to say things like "don't chuck your wicket away", "concentrate in the slips" and "please don't bowl everything halfway down".

Cook is not a good captain, but he is the only choice right now. His captaincy is largely rendered irrelevant if the players cock up the basics anyway.