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nickc
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The universally respected Scottish model started with massively increased amounts of stop and search
"I see lots of people saying we used stop and search, and yes we did initially. It was a key component, but when you start to use it excessively then it becomes a blunt instrument that alienates young people and entire communities.”"
Head of the VRU, there. Their use of stop and search was extremely targeted and intelligence led, not a blunt instrument, not fishing trips. The results are pretty clear from the stats- frinstance, in London, even in the event that an action is taken after a stop justified by suspicion of carrying a weapon, less than 1 in 5 is actually knife related. That just didn't happen here. It doesn't happen in london with drugs, either, where it's 3 out of 5.
What's kind of grim, is that the stats are actually pretty good for stop-and-search of white people. In fact, white people account for about 60% of stop-and-search arrests in London, despite accounting for only about 15% of stops. And the search-to-arrest ratio in Glasgow at its peak, is actually very close to the search-to-arrest ration in London in 2018- as long as you only look at white people. Once you add in BAME backgrounds, suddenly the signal-to-noise goes to shit.
Draw your own conclusions but I'd say the likely cause of that, is that stops of white people are more likely to be done with good cause and good intel, which is why they lead to better outcomes.
It must be tiring repeating the same chip in the shoulder pseudo-marxist Tory blaming in every thread. I wouldn't be surprised if the same people complaining about the tory cuts, would also complain if police numbers where drastically increased in high crime areas.
IMHO what is alarming people is that the old rules, be aware of your surroundings, and play it smart don't seem to be working anymore, but then again I could be completely wrong.
Interesting info, I am personally not a fan of stop and search, the guidelines seem too broad, the concept seems authoritarian and it has the potential to go wrong very quick:
https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
By signal-to-noise ratio going to shit, do you mean that the stdev was too high or that there were no identifiable trends?
It must be tiring repeating the same chip in the shoulder pseudo-marxist Tory blaming in every thread.
So reducing police numbers by 20,000, and decimating all youth services and overseeing a huge increase in the number of kids growing up in poverty has had no impact on youth crime rates? You are Theresa May and I claim my Zombie Knife
IMHO what is alarming people is that the old rules, be aware of your surroundings, and play it smart don’t seem to be working anymore
Actually... you are Alan Partridge and I claim my 'This Time' mug. 😀
Where we would put all these people and what you would do to educate them is another question and no doubt would cost money.
Yes, a minor detail we can sort out later...
As pointed out above, if just locking more people up worked, the USA would be a nirvana of peaceful, well behaved citizens. Ditto Russia.
As people keep pointing out, Srathclyde VRU has actually produced some hard evidence about tackling knife crime. We can learn and build on that, or we can keep talking about pink jumpsuits and locking lots of people up, because it sounds tough.
They're about to discuss knife crime on the Five Live phone in. Shall we have a guess how long it is before someone suggests bringing back national service? Then hanging? Then 'locking them all up and throwing away the key'?
I'm going for 4 minutes in for all three
Interesting info, I am personally not a fan of stop and search, the guidelines seem too broad, the concept seems authoritarian and it has the potential to go wrong very quick:
The key to stop and search is to know what you are looking for and probably get the racists out of the process.
as for 5 live they will be the finest selection of people not at work..... I expect a full gammon house by 9:27
"As people keep pointing out, Strathclyde VRU has actually produced some hard evidence about tackling knife crime."
Which included vast amounts of stop searches. Scotland doing ;per capita 4 times the searches of England. Of the Scottish searches Strathclyde Police with 43% of the population carried out 84% of the searches. So roughly 8x the level of searches in England. And don't try and tell me that number of searches were intelligence led.
Sometimes this is forgotten when people talk of the VRU and the "Glasgow model."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25774462
The biggest step in reducing knife crime in Glasgow was shutting Victor Morris.
The only shop in the world where you could purchase a crossbow and a banjo in a single transaction.
The banjo is a very underestimated weapon
I guess the answer is no, it doesn't get tiring.
I´m a spanish immigrant, so could you explain the Alan Partridge reference? Also, was I correct with that statement?
The banjo is a very underestimated weapon
I once tried to hit a cow in the arse with one.
Couldn’t.
I've had a similar problem with a barn door and a shovel
Baboonz - pointing out that all manner of Tory policies - reducing police numbers by 20,000, petty much shutting down all youth services, and being indifferent, at best, to a huge increase in child poverty - may well have been a factor in an increase in crime, isn't really Marxist, is it?
as for 5 live they will be the finest selection of people not at work….. I expect a full gammon house by 9:27
🤣
However we want to cut society into segments, that set which will appear on 5L are a representation of a group who do actually think that way...
I didn’t know about the low down jeans thing being representative image of US Inmates ...
The things you learn eh.
Baboonz – pointing out that all manner of Tory policies – reducing police numbers by 20,000, petty much shutting down all youth services, and being indifferent, at best, to a huge increase in child poverty – may well have been a factor in an increase in crime, isn’t really Marxist, is it?
Just a thought, but as we travel back in time to Dickensian days, maybe the wearing of sword will again become part of everyday dress.
The question posed in this article is whether a gentleman should wear a sword in the company of a lady, (or on the tube perhaps)?
‘On the other hand, most heros of novels from the earlier Georgian era would have considered themselves quite naked without their small swords. And considering the lawlessness of that time, the ladies in their company would have been quite comforted by the presence of said blade. In fact, most English gentlemen from the Middle Ages into the mid-eighteenth century wore a side arm, either a sword, a dagger, or both. A well-dressed buck out for a night on the town in Georgian London would have been a fool to wander the city streets unarmed’.
Which included vast amounts of stop searches.
I don't think anyone has suggested they didn't use stop and search, have they?
The point is that the VRU didn't rely on one approach. They used everything that they thought would be useful and they joined it all up
You are jumping to a lot of conclusions, in order to satisfy your last point, of which if your conclusions are correct then your point is a good argument. That specific point as a whole wouldn´t be marxist no, however again I ask, are any of these Labour constituencies? If so should they be held responsible to any degree?
Also stop selecting small sections to give you an excuse to hit with a quick reply and please explain that Alan Partridge reference.
You are aware that it was a certain Mrs T May who, as home secretary, personally cut police numbers by 20,000?
And I would imagine that most of the worst effected areas, being poor and inner city, are sure to be Labour constituencies. But they've born the brunt of all the funding cuts, while leafy Tory shires have been barely touched. But I don't see how you can hold labour responsible for things like the reduction in youth services when most of them have been looking at budget cuts of up to 40% since 2010. What are they supposed to do? We know that there is a magic money tree, but its only accessible to a few
Pointing out that enormous cuts to local council budgets and police forces will most likely have had an impact on crime rates isn't exactly some mad, leftist dogma, is it?
At the end of the day, the Tory's won't do a single thing about this as it doesn't effect the people or the areas they represent. The areas and people who are effected by this are the ones the Tory's prove time after time that they couldn't give a toss about
As satire, this is pretty accurate
Tories pledge to tackle knife crime by occasionally being a bit cross about it
Oh.... and the Partridge reference was that your statement was a tad Partridge-esque 😉
I already answered, that assuming you are correct, it's not leftist dogma. Say they increase the police numbers sufficiently, targeting the high crime areas, I wouldn't be surprised if it was then criticized for some politically correct reason.
As for who bares the brunt of the cuts, maybe there wasn't much to cut from in those places?
The line managers(Labour) blaming everything on upper management (Tory) just seems like a far too comfortable position to sit in. It seems that the attitude provides no incentive to be as effective as possible.
Why on earth would anyone criticise raising police numbers in high crime areas on the grounds of political correctness? Thats just a completely bonkers statement!
The line managers(Labour) blaming everything on upper management (Tory) just seems like a far too comfortable position to sit in
There are plenty of examples of Tory Local councillors (who have endured far lower cuts) saying that the cuts have been far too draconian and need to be eased. I suppose they're Marxists too, are they?
You just sound like Theresa May in her usual blame-storming exercise. She does something which will obviously have an impact (police numbers and crime rates) the ridiculously claim there's no link (of course theres a bloody link) then look to blame everyone else instead. SQUIRREL!!
This morning it seems that even her own home secretary is acknowledging that the police need their funding increased. Even he doesn't believe her ridiculous claims of no links.
The Maybot won't do that, obviously. She won't do anything, as she simply doesn't care and is just assuming that no more middle class white kids will be getting knifed, so this will blow over as the press lose interest and stop covering it, and black kids on sink estates can carry on shanking each other
Nobeerinthefridge
Subscriber
I’m not convinced that it was anything other than us getting kinda lucky up here. The gang culture died away organically, thankfully.
I think a lot of what happened up here is it calmed down after people stopping letting their weans have the freedom we did in the 80/90s. I suspect there's a correlation there. That and tearing down and rebuilding alot of the shitholes made as much of a difference as any police or political work. A combination of a lot of factors really, I'd suggest Glasgow isn't as poor as it was 30 years ago either and there's been a general upgrading in standard of living for people.
irc
Member
And don’t try and tell me that number of searches were intelligence led.
Why on earth not? I quoted the head of the VRU up the page stating that you have to avoid it being a blunt instrument, which is plainly what it's become elsewhere. And like I say, you can see the difference between well targeted and poorly targeted stop and search easily from the outcomes.
And you can see that same intelligence led approach all the way through the VRU approach- they knew exactly who to target, who the teams were and where to find them, who to "invite" to the sheriff's court and other educational events, where to put the levers. Nobody ever said anything as vacuous as "we search more black youths because they're more available for searches", which comes up over and over and is just an absolute admission of failure.
This isn't 'the answer' but was an interesting take; I can't remember where I saw it but it was a talking heads type discussion between an older black guy who runs a boxing gym for the kids in his south london neighbourhood, and a younger black reporter asking him about knife crime when times were 'just as hard' for the older guy when he was a kid in the 70's
And he was a strong advocate of stop and search - but in his case he was getting stopped and searched by his parents when he went out of his front door and then again when he came back in.
I'm with Binners/the factory analogy, unless we deal with the production line, we just need bigger and bigger warehouses to store the stuff it makes in. But HOW we fix that, starts with parenting, and unfortunately many of the parents are now disfunctional too. It's easy to say we need to press the stop button on the production line, but I'll be damned where to find it.
At the end of the day, the Tory’s won’t do a single thing about this as it doesn’t effect the people or the areas they represent. The areas and people who are effected by this are the ones the Tory’s prove time after time that they couldn’t give a toss about
Exactly. Looking at it from a voting perspective why bother with areas that will never vote for you. The difficulty is that their usual supporters (i.e. Daily Mail) are kicking off about and not letting it go by quietly. However, still can't see it affecting the New Forest Tory vote...
But HOW we fix that, starts with parenting, and unfortunately many of the parents are now disfunctional too. It’s easy to say we need to press the stop button on the production line, but I’ll be damned where to find it.
Deffo this, and the answer proposed to that is let the state take more parenting responsibility. Yet when the state has total responsibility - ie takes kids into care - the outcomes are often disastrous.
There just is no substitute for good parenting and you learn good parenting from your good parents. If you don't have those...
There are plenty of examples of Tory Local councillors (who have endured far lower cuts) saying that the cuts have been far too draconian and need to be eased.
In my area they've been saying that. But they've had 5 years warning to raise local taxes year on year to completely make up the shortfall - and they didn't.
To change peoples behaviour with regard to parenting its a long term, generational thing. Schemes like Sure Start addressed this and were really starting to deliver results
Guess what was the very fist thing the Tory's axed when they were elected?
You can't just react to things as they happen. You need to address the causes and acknowledge that there are no quick fixes. The guy who was responsible for the reduction in knife crime in Glasgow was on channel 4 news last night. He said that when they set out they knew that it would take a generation, and that they had to have come at it from multiple directions, through various agencies, addressing poverty, housing, education, youth unemployment, youth services, and mental health issues in deprived areas, as well as policing
In other words, all the things this government doesn't give a shit about. Theresa May has said they're having a summit about it next week. I'm sure they'll all look serious and suitably concerned, make the right noises, then do absolutely **** all to address any of the root causes, hope it bows over and nobody else white and middle class gets caught up in it
But HOW we fix that, starts with parenting, and unfortunately many of the parents are now disfunctional too. It’s easy to say we need to press the stop button on the production line, but I’ll be damned where to find it.
Sure Start was shown to be effective, - support for families from immediately after birth, but was damn expensive, so many centres were cut at the start of austerity & those that remain have far less funding.
This is despite the fact that even though expensive, it had a net financial benefit to the country as well as benefiting the children & families themselves.
But that's austerity for ya!
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7257
All it takes ( and this is my opinion , founded on no facts but the way my own mind processes information ) is one guy in a flash car.
You are 14/15 , this guy is 21/22 . He may well be the brother or 'cuz' of a mate and he is running round in a Porsche.
All the info stream this group of yoofs is getting is the bad news train. No jobs, Brexit, crazy house prices, no future, unemployment, foreigners taking all of our jobs etc
Hang on , Mr Porsche is doing very well, he is one of us ,from the same estate. The fact he is the local go to dealer and has evaded prison thus far is irrelevant. So they see his 'success' as a nice easy way to make a living without GCSE's / A levels etc
So they start selling , need a patch , need to defend that patch , need to gain a reputation as guy not to messed with or grassed to the polis about
Beats hanging around in the local community center playing table tennis on a knackered table, cash in your pocket to treat your crew to a couple of large Domino's to gain loyalty
Live at home , get a few PAYG phones and a blade job jobbed.
Its alot more accessable than school, collage, Uni , Degree, flat, job , career , rsponsibility
People see success as material things , you do not clock the 10,000 Ford Mundanes driving past you, but the Porchce, Mclaren , R8 etc all instantly recognisable. Shame that the biggest success is probably a happy family with a roof over their heads and enough food to go round is not a recognised thing of merit anymore
IMO
Maybe people should stop blaming other people (government) and actually start by working out what they can do themselves.
We can all report anything we see, give the police more intel. If your a parent then do some parenting, spend some time with them.
Volunteer for some community or youth based work.
The trouble we have is we never look to ourselves enough anymore to make things better, we always think its someone else's job.
perchypanther
The biggest step in reducing knife crime in Glasgow was shutting Victor Morris.
The only shop in the world where you could purchase a crossbow and a banjo in a single transaction.
You're thinking a bit too small there, I bought a set of samurai swords and a BC Rich 7-string guitar in there one lunchtime.
Maybe people should stop blaming other people (government) and actually start by working out what they can do themselves.
I had a look but I don't have the funds to restart sure start centres, to reduce the massive inequality in the nation or help large numbers out of poverty. While there is much the individual can do recent governments should not be let off the hook for their actions that are contributing to this.
You’re thinking a bit too small there, I bought a set of samurai swords and a BC Rich 7-string guitar in there one lunchtime.
I was almost tempted once by the combo of a Klingon Bat’leth and a vintage italian Accordion. I would have fitted right in on the night bus home. 😉
Irony was, I felt really nervous walking up the street after, in case someone mugged me for the swords.
We can all report anything we see, give the police more intel
Middleclasstrackworld strikes again. Alright there Harry Brown?
I can’t see too many of us on here having too much ‘intel’ for the police
Have you the remotest idea what it’s actually like living in the places where all this stuff is going on?
When I lived in Salford 6, two guys walked into the pub down the road, which was really busy, at 3 o clock on a Saturday afternoon, and shot and killed two people.
Nobody has ever been convicted. Do you know how many witness statements the police got from a packed pub? I’ll give you a clue: it was less than one. Everyone knew who did it, obviously...
When you’re in an area run by gangs you would have to have a death wish to be giving ‘intel’ to the police, because if you did, the chances are that you’ll be next. Everyone does the same. You keep your head down and you see nothing
Good film that . Michael Caine really stood out as the only actor on the cast list though. Without him in it probably would have flopped badly .
When I lived in Salford 6, two guys walked into the pub down the road, which was really busy, at 3 o clock on a Saturday afternoon, and shot and killed two people.
Nobody has ever been convicted.
Did it have a flat roof?
When I was at tech college in Glasgow, someone walked into the cafeteria at lunchtime and stabbed a young boy.
College was in one of the toughest areas of the city, as Binners says, it's a different world altogether. A world which I've never lived in, so really don't know the answer, like pretty much everyone else on here.
A world which I’ve never lived in, so really don’t know the answer, like pretty much everyone else on here.
and if this was all gang related that would be a solid point. It goes way beyond gangs and drugs.
They’re presently discussing this on QT. Dominic Raab looks lost in a world he has no understanding of. I imagine he’s little different from many of our politicians on that score.
I can just imagine Theresa May, and her cabal of Eton boys understanding of this when she has her ‘summit’ next week.
****ing clueless!!
"I had a look but I don’t have the funds to restart sure start centres, to reduce the massive inequality in the nation or help large numbers out of poverty. While there is much the individual can do recent governments should not be let off the hook for their actions that are contributing to this."
We voted for them, so its our fault, the major problems in the world are not caused by governments, its us. We are all too greedy, apathetic and selfish.
We all talk a good story but at the end of the day leave it all for others to fix. Be that knife crime or climate change.
this is worth a listen. got a lot of time for akala.
We voted for them, so its our fault, the major problems in the world are not caused by governments, its us. We are all too greedy, apathetic and selfish.
We all talk a good story but at the end of the day leave it all for others to fix. Be that knife crime or climate change.
Ok then... I'll bite. So exactly what would you suggest that we, as individuals, do to combat knife crime? Seeing as this is apparently the answer to societies ills...
Some actual concrete suggestions?
And don't just say 'bring your kids up properly'. I've two teenage daughters who have been brought up 'properly, and I'd suggest that despite what the Daily Mail would have us believe, people who don't bring their kids up 'properly' are a tiny minority, otherwise they'd all be knifing each other
Over to you....
So exactly what would you suggest that we, as individuals, do to combat knife crime?
Buy guns?
It’s the Chicago Way.
I'd say that there are probably people already doing exactly that PP 😉