[Closed] Jordanian pilot - sensible debate thread

So what can we, the West, or Jordan, or anyone else do?
Executing prisoners won't help, they will be happy to become martyrs and will be seen as such by other members of IS.
A military response isn't likely to help, unless as you say they flatten the entire area but there would be far, far too much collateral damage from doing that.
Cutting their finances hasn't worked so far and won;t as long as they have people willing to help them, and they are rich enough that it is a long term strategy at best.
Doing nothing will just leave them to get stronger and stronger.
Hmmm.

Jordan is entitled to do as Jordan wishes. Their culture so they can do as they wish to those that waant to harm them.

Jordan have been willing to exchange hostage(s) only to be made a fool by the captors.

IMO the captors have no intention whatsoever to negotiate but rather use it as a propaganda to divide the people. They have been toying with Jordan to see their reaction. Yes, the people gave in to the captors demand so started to negotiate only for the captors to betray their own words.

The question is how often can one make a fool out of others?

andrewh - Member
Executing prisoners won't help, they will be happy to become martyrs and will be seen as such by other members of IS.

The question is how do you prevent them to be martyrs ?
😯

I don't claim to know the metrics and facts behind IS, but they do seem to be better organised, better funded...and far more brutal than other similar organisations over the last few decades.

I guess leaving them to grow stronger, will eventually have serious repercussions for the west, when IS inevitably start carrying out more direct terrorist acts in western countries.

Sensible debate would involve something along the lines of understanding that if you cut the head off a dragon 6 will appear in it's place!

Not a solution just more a concern that it's all going to get much much worse out there. western(by that I mean rich ****s)influence and designs in the muslim world over the last 100 years or so has lead to a ****ing shit storm that ain't ever going to be solved by more war.

I often wonder if the media all over refused to cover these barbaric acts of violence if they'd still occur. They're obviously designed to intimidate and generate as much publicity as possible and it working. Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

whatnobeer - Member
Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

I disagree because unless we see them as they are we are just being delusional.

Let's get it over and done with.

I guess one of the challenges is that IS don't want a dialogue, don't want to negotiate and don't want to adopt a moderate stance.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

That only leaves one way forward,....more war.

I wonder if I'm still going to Jordan for two weeks work on the 17th Feb.....

And making a spectacle of not executing the IS prisoners would certainly deny them martyr status which some believe is a path to heaven that they desire....

I struggle to see a way forward without something cataclysmic happening in the region.

whatnobeer - Member
I often wonder if the media all over refused to cover these barbaric acts of violence if they'd still occur. They're obviously designed to intimidate and generate as much publicity as possible and it working. Take away the coverage, deny them an audience and they'd (hopefully) be forced into reevaluating their approach.

I have wondered this, yet as was mentioned in the other post these terrible acts still happen whether covered by media or not...

Given their desire is to get us to watch the videos, be sacred , react and then discuss them why are we doing this ?

Not seen any video of theirs as not getting involved in helping them with their MO.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

skydragon - Member
I guess one of the challenges is that IS don't want a dialogue, don't want to negotiate and don't want to adopt a moderate stance.

Their ideals appear to be at complete odds to the west and most other countries.

That only leaves one way forward,....more war.

More war in the short term is inevitable, but there is nothing surer than talking will be done with IS long term.

Discuss

Aside from being my favourite phrase to use in an OP, ironically to 'discuss' is the very 'power' folk give IS.

If they were not reported, discussed or given an identity by the media, they would be nothing. Zip. Nadda.

Edit: As hinted above. Still, we'll feed on it because that's what is reported and what we watch. Without wishing to get all Jivehoney, but everyone cancel your sky subscription and don't watch news 24 and then see what happens..

Liveleak have been refusing to show any IS released media for some time now, and quite right too IMO. Giving them a platform to show their acts of brutality is exactly what they want and it markets their ideology.

They Jordanians have no choice now. They have to kill those prisoners otherwise they'll be a laughing stock (sad as this may be). Personally I'd skip the Muslim burial too but I'm a vindictive git.

As for the ME; easily solved. Get an alternative to oil (or an alternative source) and leave it the **** alone. Let them do, and live however they want. pretty much the same approach as taken in Africa really.

If they were not reported, discussed or given an identity by the media, they would be nothing. Zip. Nadda.

The question is how do you prevent them to be martyrs ?

Do you not get a woman or women to execute them, they can't pass to paradise then and that prevents them from being martyrs, or so I have heard.

I think there is a seemingly a fine line between objective reporting on world events and becoming a tool for propaganda.

rickmeister - Member

And making a spectacle of not executing the IS prisoners would certainly deny them martyr status which some believe is a path to heaven that they desire....

No. They will still be martyr.

The question is how do you break the believe in martyrdom or how do you ensure one does not become a martyr in death?

votchy - Member

Do you not get a woman or women to execute them, they can't pass to paradise then and that prevents them from being martyrs, or so I have heard.

I don't know but I bet the answer is in their holy book. Just right in front of us ...

It's the new cold war. Instead of a nuclear arms race it might be an extended war of/on terror.

It can only end badly unless the real reasons are addressed- intolerence, ignorance, etc...

Unfortunately, any discussion on this topic is tainted by people talking about 'religion'- The irony of which is perhaps that the primary root of humanity's ignorance and intolerance is founded in religion.

Or is this simply a guilty Western pseudo-christian apologist slant on the whole situation?

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

Not a daft question at all.

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

I'm not suggesting that 'the west' is perfect and all, but the ethnic cleansing etc that IS have carried out, cannot just be ignored.

Of course it's a shame that the west seems to pick and mix who it helps and when and on a lesser scale we sometimes need to get our own house in order, but I believe the basic point rings true.

They're master propagandists. Goebbels would have to take his hat off to this lot. And it works. They rule through fear. Why do you think the Iraqi army all ran off? Do you blame them? Would you hang around? See what happened if they got hold of you.

It's only making the news when they do it to foreign nationals. It's open season on the civilian population of Syria and Iraq. Apparently the Islamic punishment for homosexuality is being thrown off tall buildings. IS are vague about exactly where in the Koran it says this, but that doesn't matter because they are The Law

stop giving them an audience would be a start.
Remember when we wouldn't even allow the voice of any of Sinn Féin representatives to be broadcast? How things have changed.
Fear is a useful tool that suits the current agenda.

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

Are there any truly "civilised" societies in the western world? Are people in the west safe? Does everone enjoy a decent quality of life. Perhaps if "we" kept to ensuring that everyone in the west was safe and had a decent quality of life then those in other parts of the world might respect what we do and join us as it's better. The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised.

[url= http://counterjihadreport.com/2014/08/22/documentary-meeting-isil-presstv-goes-deep-inside-the-terrorist-group/ ]Meeting ISIL (PressTV goes deep inside the terrorist group)[/url]

If you have a spare two hours(!), ^ this documentary ^ reveals quite a lot about the group that is generally not reported.

Do people hold the option that there is a viable solution to this, and indeed other similar issues?

skydragon - Member

My personal view is that as a civilised society, if another country does not abide by the basic conduct that enables it's people to be safe and enjoy a decent quality of life, then it's our duty to try and help improve that situation. We shouldn't just stand by and let brutal regimes prosper.

This may be a daft question, but what is wrong with people having ideals that are at complete odds with the west and "most" countries? Hell my ideals are at odds with the west.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having differing points of view from the cultural norm. Unfortunately, it's when those ideals are imposed on people who do not share them that the problems arise. IS are smashing their way through the ME backed and supported by people who just seem to want to see the world burn. At some point, unless checked they will grow and grow and grow. IS operates in a completely assymetrical manner, hence why the world seems to be reeling. The only thing that they do seem to understand is war. And until the world can figure out some other solution, that appears to be the only answer.

Words fail me at the execution of Moaz al-Kasasbeh. I just hope his end was swift.

They Jordanians have no choice now. They have to kill those prisoners otherwise they'll be a laughing stock (sad as this may be).

They do have the choice. Prisoners pose no risk so what purpose does execution serve?

EDIT: 'unless checked' not 'unchecked'.

sas78 - Member
Unfortunately, any discussion on this topic is tainted by people talking about 'religion'- The irony of which is perhaps that the primary root of humanity's ignorance and intolerance is founded in religion.

You are going in circle here or several thousand years too late.

What is your solution?

Alpha1653 - Member

At some point, unless unchecked they will grow and grow and grow. IS operates in a completely assymetrical manner, hence why the world seems to be reeling. The only thing that they do seem to understand is war. And until the world can figure out some other solution, that appears to be the only answer.

That's the problem ... grow and grow ...

And yet in some African countries the public do a similar thing to accused rapists.
I forget what it's called (yes it had a name) but they beat the offender, place a tyre over their head and arms and then set fire to them.
And that's without a trial and just as barbaric.

keng38 - Member

And yet in some African countries the public do a similar thing to accused rapists.
I forget what it's called (yes it had a name) but they beat the offender, place a tyre over their head and arms and then set fire to them.
And that's without a trial and just as barbaric.

That is their way of dealing with their own and they are not imposing on other countries ...

Words fail me at the execution of Moaz al-Kasasbeh. I just hope his end was swift.

It wasn't.

the pre-meditated and calculated nature of itt makes it even more repulsive.

Are there any truly "civilised" societies in the western world? Are people in the west safe? Does everone enjoy a decent quality of life. Perhaps if "we" kept to ensuring that everyone in the west was safe and had a decent quality of life then those in other parts of the world might respect what we do and join us as it's better. The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised.

It's a lot more civilized than much of the rest of the world, mostly the Middle East and Africa. You're suffering from a severe bout of whataboutery and postmodernism.

Anything but swift. Shocking video.

The west is not safe and not equal and it sure as hell aint civilised

Which will be why tens of millions of westerners are desperately trying to flee the uncivilised barbaric society they live in then? Oh hang on, wait a minute,,,,,,

We have some fairly recent historical parallels that can be useful, the indo china and Vietnam wars of the 50/60 and 70s proved it is possible to turn a gurrilea insurgency into as army that looks and functions like a western army - the Vietnamese achieved this and when you look at the footage of ISIS in the field they seem to have a lot of heavy kit and are capable of engaging "proper" army's , so we in the west with no political will and have no appetite to engage/stop/destroy this "nation state" in the near future - they will get bigger and stronger, the beheadings/burning are not medieval pointless acts nor are they simply looking for media coverage they are designed to find the breaking point and that knowledge enables them to push boundaries and borders - look how much Hitler did before anyone snapped. There is serious I.e multi billion dollar support for these people - we forget in the west that money does not change religious views in much of the Middle East I.e rich Islamists don't suddenly turn "western" as they have a few quid.

History tells us not to under estimate these people yet we continue to do so? Oh and by the way there is only one soloution and no western govt is ever going to go and do it as the casualties and atrocities required to remove these organisations are wholly unacceptable. So in analysis convert or be dammed? Discuss.....

andrewh

So what can we, the West, or Jordan, or anyone else do?

What needs to be done? Educate the public how this group has come to prominence, admit shortcomings/blame in that respect. Arrest, try and convict as many people as possible who were involved in the highly illegal invasion of Iraq which killed untold hundreds of thousands of their citizens and destabilized the region allowing IS to flourish.

Withdraw all support for Israel and publicly denounce their wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Support moderate Islamic nations to combat IS themselves. Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European societies.

Will any of this happen? Will it f***. We have far too much tied up the region.

Focussing back on the IS video and media propaganda, what do they hope to achieve with this?

- put the fear into any opponents...absolutely. Would you sign up as a local soldier to fight against them.

- attract local recruits...yes, want to be on the winning side, rather than die a slow and painful death.

But the side affect is that they increase agression from other countries and attract more military action against them.

Any other goals I'm missing?

Newsnight, Jordian politician "You cannot be civilised with uncivilised people". He suggested those on death row would be executed tomorrow morning With the use of the word "revenge" being used widely

The pilot was killed a month ago, Jordianian intelligence had picked up blog posts saying he'd been burned. Further evidence if it was required of the callous nature of IS.

Do we underestimate IS? I bloody hope not. It's not so much the weaponry that alarms me, it's the support and finance that they seem to be garnering from somewhere and their appeal to unbelievable amounts of people to whom the bloodlust appeals. Their success to date with such a violent idea is unbelievable - anyone who underestimates them is a fool.

As for their ability to fight against a regular army, yes they have relatively heavy weaponry but in all out war, they would fail pretty quickly - think about the non kinetic stuff that's needed but they haven't developed: logistic chains, intelligence cycles, command and control. It would be a ballsy govt to commit land forces against IS though...

But going toe to toe can only check them in the short term; it's not the weaponry and foot soldiers you need to destroy, it's the idea behind it and that's a whole different ball game...

oldmanmtb - Member

We have some fairly recent historical parallels that can be useful, the indo china and Vietnam wars ...

Ya, but the US was fighting a proxy war there with China and Russia. i.e. the west was fighting proper army there. Even in Korea war who do you think supply all the army?

jimjam - Member

What needs to be done? Educate the public how this group has come about, admit shortcomings/blame in that respect. Arrest, try and convict as many people as possible who were involved in the highly illegal invasion of Iraq which killed untold hundreds of thousands of their citizens and destabilized the region allowing IS to flourish.

Nope. That's like crying over spilled milk again.

Withdraw all support for Israel and publicly denounce their wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Support mmore moderate Islamic nations to combat IS themselves. Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

Will any of this happen? Will it f***. We have far too much tied up the region.

This will not happen because you are being unrealistic. I think you are also contradicting yourself here.

Alpha1653

it's not the weaponry and foot soldiers you need to destroy, it's the idea behind it and that's a whole different ball game...

Exactly. You can't kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

chewkw

Nope. That's like crying over spilled milk again.

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they'll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be "terrorists" as long as the west sticks it's nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

You can't leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

jimjam - Member

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they'll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be "terrorists" as long as the west sticks it's nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

You can't leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to the Israeli people?

Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

The efforts is on their part to integrate with Western European society rather than the other way round. If you move to middle east you need to integrate into their society rather than the other way round. They might tolerate you to some extend but fundamentally you have not much say whatsoever in their way of life. Enter Rome do as the Romans.

jimjam - Member
Exactly. You can't kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to Israeli people?

Well they [i]might[/i] stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

History is a pretty long time. Where shall I start? I suppose [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades ]here[/url] will do.

jimjam - Member
Well they might stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Or Israel will be opened to slaughter by others.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

I bet they realised that but then they have already created the monsters so who else are capable to deal with the monsters now? IMO, they created the monsters then they have to deal with the monsters because they can.