Jeremy Corbyn

@binners...think you need to research the recent history of UK politics..start by looking at the last century for a start...or visit the People's Museum in Liverpool...maybe you'll realise it's you who is in the wrong party...

He'll walk the Manchester mayoral elections, I imagine he'll do a really good job, then he's ready to take over the leadership when labour goes down to its heaviest ever electoral defeat at the next GE.

Binners for a close labour party politics you have this wrong. Burnham is seen as a scouser he'll be lucky to get to a run off against the agreed placeman Tony Lloyd

His other problem is that he has flip-flop ed too much, and frankly he comes across a bit "nice but dim Tim"

.maybe you'll realise it's you who is in the wrong party.

Why? Because I don't fancy a return to the 1970's and 80's.

Well if thats what the labour party 'members' want, then good luck with that. Electoral oblivion beckons. Hopefully there is a decent electable centre left/social democratic party that can emerge from the wreckage of this obvious folly then eh?

I keep seeing this written, yet I'm not aware of what makes Corbyn "hard left".

Hardly a surprise as he's not. He's pretty middle of the road social democratic labour, think Neil Kinnock without the megalomania. There's a lot of rubbish being talked about Corbyn on both sides. He's caught in the middle of a war between members (real ones, not the fictional socialist worker element) and careerist MPs. The members want their party to win on a left of centre platform, the MPs want to win on whatever platform will get them there quickest, most probably a rightwing one. That's about it really. I'm sure Corbyn is looking forward to going back to his allotment.

I didn't think that JC's Labour party was about winning elections - 'winning' is just for the Westminster elite.

Do we think they'll try and keep Corbyn off the ballot ? Seems a [b]nuclear option [/b]so I say no.

There's **** all chance of them managing to reach any sort of agreement amongst themselves on that then 😆

Binners for a close labour party politics you have this wrong. Burnham is seen as a scouser he'll be lucky to get to a run off against the agreed placeman Tony Lloyd

If someone as useless and corrupt as Tony Lloyd gets an unopposed run at Mayor of Manchester then that in itself tells us all we need to know about the state of the Labour Party at present.

Momentum has re-created the toxic Labour Party of the 1980's

Trouble with winning, is that you then have to take actual responsibility and often for tough decisions. Ask the LDs or the BSers now!!!

It's all very week moaning, but doing something about it is so much harder.

EdenV, feel free to answer the question at your leisure.

fascists just took over the tory party

Would appear to be "Fox news level of analysis".

Corbyn is to the left of Kinnock. That's evident by the fact Corbyn supported Benn against Kinnock in the 1988 leadership contest.

Would appear to be "Fox news level of analysis".

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and it was a question anyway

of course they haven't but we can all makes BS analysis based on our political bias or we can discuss the actual facts/reality.

Ah! I see!

(I've run out of coffee. Long morning. )

Isn't the talk of how far left he is all fairly academic anyway, when the fundamental problem is one of competence?

As far as landing blows on the government, and putting the brakes on Tory policies, while holding them to account, he's (somewhat unbelievably) managed to make his predecessor look like a towering political colossus.

He's absolutely bloody hopeless!!! Thats the bottom line! The Tory's will have had an absolute nightmare over a particular issue, say the NHS, and he'll just waffle through PMQ's (doing his tragic radio chat show host routine) and completely fail to even mention it. Week in, week out.

Its difficult to see what the point of him is. Other than to do what he did last week and make some pointless speech at a miners welfare club in the North East, making vague lefty noises, and calling everyone Comrade. Thats his natural territory. Its certainly not at the despatch box in the houses of parliament. As Leader of Her Majesties Opposition, he's just crap at it!

Isn't the talk of how far left he is all fairly academic anyway, when the fundamental problem is one of competency?

Binners: "he's a raging Trot"
Everyone else: "evidence please"
Binners: "don't care anyway"

Isn't the talk of how far left he is all fairly academic anyway, when the fundamental problem is one of competence?

As far as landing blows on the government, and putting the brakes on Tory policies, while holding them to account, he's (somewhat unbelievably) managed to make his predecessor look like a towering political colossus.

However you wish to dress this up the PLP is clearly ignoring the party democracy and clearly trying to usurp and replace the current leader preferably without even letting him stand. they do this whilst they know he will win the vote if "they" let him stand

In this situation to blame the democratic choice of the party for the troubles is a little short sighted
The PLP need to respect democracy or **** off and start a new Blairite party where you can do their logos and stuff.

@thm...I want to write I don't understand your question but I'll appear a dunce.. 😀

My comments re motives wasn't supposed to have any hidden meaning..just a simple dictionary definition. I.e. Political parties are communities of interest with (hopefully) similar ideologies etc. However, currently political parties are all fighting for the indefinable 'electable middle grounnd' which means their rhetoric will not necessarily match their collective ideas...hence it comes unravelled post elections and we see U-turn galore and public outrage at the pre-elecetion statements that don't materiLise - all because when they are in power they work to their collective interests and ideologies which aren't the same as the 'electable middle ground' statements they made to win/gain the power...

You should chill out on the Corbyn attacks, Binners. Not really a good look. You're arguing against, what you see as common room politics, but acting like an angry student. 😆

The PLP need to respect democracy or **** off and start a new Blairite party where you can do their logos and stuff.

Actually, I think that's exactly what should happen. Currently, I see no way in which the wishes of the membership, PLP and wider electorate can be reconciled.

Its difficult to see what the point of him is.

I'd have thought that's pretty obvious:

Re-align the party behind a left of centre agenda? Yes
Regain democratic control of the party from the Blairite dictatorship? Yes
Represent the views of normal people (both working and middle class) who have been disenfranchised by neo-liberalism? Yes
Return the focus of politics to policy instead of short term media management? Yes
Become Prime Minister? Probably not.

I doubt the last one was ever on his radar. It says more about his enemies that they've done everything they can to prevent the other points, and the mess the party is in now is more to do with that than him not being PM material.

Applauds Daz
Its pretty much spot on

the party has given the blairites a bloody nose and they have dealt with this by undermining the wishes of the party, not supporting the leader. plotting against him and then trying to stop him standing in an election THEY KNOW HE WILL WIN.

The MP's are acting like they can ignore the views of the party they represent. they cannot and they should and must be held to democratic account even if the result is against what they wish.

plotting against him and then trying to stop him standing in an election THEY KNOW HE WILL WIN.

The MPs _KNOW_ that Corbyn will win the next general election and they are trying to stop him regardless??

Bastards!

Oh, hang on you didn't mean THAT sort of election, did you? You meant the bunch of argumentalists in a draughty hall desperately virtue signalling, whilst doing absolutely nothing of any importance, didn't you.

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You should chill out on the Corbyn attacks, Binners. Not really a good look. You're arguing against, what you see as common room politics, but acting like an angry student.

I thought he was giving a pretty fair assessment.

THEY KNOW HE WILL WIN

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I've got to say I don't think Binners was too far off the mark.

I'm fairly sympathetic to Corbyns positions but as leader of the opposition he's been hopeless. The Tories have left gaping holes to attack and he's not gone after them. It's hard to think of a better time to have been a leader of the opposition for a while but not a peep. He doesn't need to go in tearing up trees, a measured approach pointing out the inconsistencies, errors and problems would have worked, but there's nothing.

The most vocal thing about him is his Facebook page which come across as a whiney 6th former. Even recently it was pointing out all the positives that labour have had recently, great, but he should be shouting them from the rooftops.

@turnerguy..stranger things have happend. We do have a ruling party that convinced poor voters to vote for them, and then when life didn't get better for those voters they managed to convince the voter it wasn't their policies that was the issue but membership of the EU instead....

Just to confirm Binners point on Corbyns' website, when you look at the list of priorities the most recent post in International is from May. You'd rather think that some International events since May have happened and he has an opinion on them. Yet on Twitter most of the last 24 hours is photos from the Durham Miners' Gala.

Seriously his priority is a completely dead industry rather than discussing the future of the UKs relationship with the EU and rest of the world 😯

Edit: Just spotted a good few days ago on Twitter he did say something about not leaving the EU negotiations to the Tories, but for some reason it isn't on his website.

Seriously his priority is a completely dead industry rather than discussing the future of the UKs relationship with the EU and rest of the world

Making sure he has the traditional labour vote solid...

god bless him...

Corbyn hasn't realigned the party at all. The only major vote he has tried to influence was Syria intervention and he was roundly defeated. The Shadow Cabinet has resigned pretty much en-mass and he now stands isolated part from McDonnel and Abbott having achieved less than zero (unless you count the Leave victory as his achievement 😉 )

NEC going on now, I'll wager he's told he must get 51 MP/MEPs ..

The Tories have left gaping holes to attack and he's not gone after them. It's hard to think of a better time to have been a leader of the opposition for a while but not a peep.

I'm happy to accept that he's been less than effective, but until he gets a chance to oppose the tories with a united party behind him and a labour-supporting media who are on-message, we'll never really know how competent he is or could have been.

You'd rather think that some International events since May have happened and he has an opinion on them. Yet on Twitter most of the last 24 hours is photos from the Durham Miners' Gala.

Don't be ridiculous, twitter is about stuff that's happened in the last few hours, not a couple of months ago.

Do we think they'll try and keep Corbyn off the ballot ? Seems a nuclear option so I say no

NEC going on now, I'll wager he's told he must get 51 MP/MEPs ..

Always good to hedge one's bets.

Corbyn hasn't realigned the party at all.

Really? You surprise me. I'd have thought 9 months would have been plenty time to do that, especially with all his MPs pulling for him.

, but until he gets a chance to oppose the tories with a united party behind him and a labour-supporting media who are on-message, we'll never really know how competent he is or could have been.

TBF he gets very good press in the Morning Star.

THEY KNOW HE WILL WIN

WOW that is pretty out of touch with the topic
By all means be a tory but don't ignore the actual facts just because you hate him.

I'm happy to accept that he's been less than effective, but until he gets a chance to oppose the tories with a united party behind him and a labour-supporting media who are on-message, we'll never really know how competent he is or could have been.

Also if he took it to the Tories or the press and showed decent leadership the plp would probably get behind him, pollies always love a winner.

its hard to say whether he has been good bad or indiffrent as no one could lead a party acting as this bunch have.

I think DazH and Junkyard are right.

The biggest question for me is:

Does the party want to be principled opposition (but unelectable by anyone outside the party hardcore) or electable but slightly less principled (to appeal to the masses)

The party members obviously want the leader to represent their views. The PLP want to get elected to government so they can actually get some stuff done.

Always good to hedge one's bets.

My view changed 😉 Seriously, based on what I have been reading today it seems there is a weight of opinion at the NEC that says they will ask him for 50 MPs - one of his most recent Shadow Cabinet appointees supposedly said he should resign at a shadow cabinet meeting 😯

Ok if you think that is ludicrous name your wager for the vote outcome ?
Why are the PLP doing all this if they can just beat him in a vote?
The internal and the leaked stuff and the previous results all show he will win if he is on the ballot.
I assume only your ignorance and poor grasp of the topic left you posting pig pictures

Woosh!

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@theteaboy this was discussed extensively at the time of the original leadership election. Senior party figure after senior party figure spoke of their experience of huge support from the party faithful but not from the wider electorate - this being a strategy that was totally pointless in their opinion

Principled opposition is what the Green Party do, to absolutely zero effect.

no one could lead a party acting as this bunch have.

He's let it get to this position though. He came in with a large mandate from his electorate, early doors he could have laid down his ground rules and enforced them. But he's let the internal opposition in the plp gain confidence to the point he's lost control, all through his weakness. He might not like it but when you're leading sometimes you have to lay down the law.

No the press hasn't been particularly interested but his job is to go out there and make them have to report on things. If he was being difficult and causing problems for the government they'd be reporting it. It's all a bit IDS 'beware the quiet man', and that turned out well.

Ok if you think that is ludicrous name your wager for the vote outcome ?

If we are talking a GE then £100 🙂

Obviously I hope he does stay Labour 'leader'.

I think its worse than that
I think the PLP is blairte and way to the right of the membership
they don't like what the members have chosen so they have chosen to undermine him to make him lose their support. When this failed they have tried to remove him from the ballot It a coup attempt basically as the PLP tries to assert it "right" to supremacy over the members

Whether corbyn I awesome or shit is not the issue he is the members choice and the PLP cannot juts ignore this and act like this. if they cannot respect the members wishes they need to leave not usurp them /the leader in this way.
Win in a ballot .....put up or shut up basically

So if they do ask him for 50 MPs, and he doesn't get them - then what?

Does the party want to be principled opposition (but unelectable by anyone outside the party hardcore) or electable but slightly less principled (to appeal to the masses)

A competent party should be both - especially if they expect to be running the country in the future.

Why is this so difficult?

1. It was never intended that he would be leader
2. He didn't want the job
3. He's not very good at it
[s]4. There are obvious alternatives [/s] - oops, sorry take it all back.

As you were...

In latest news neither ernie nor myself have become Tories since may became leader in waiting

Who was your favourite Labour leader then THM 😉

A good party should be principled and then persuade others that they are right.

After all, the Labour message - help the poor, help the working classes, invest in public services and so on - shouldn't be a particularly difficult concept to sell, should it?

Indeed mol, and remind me what happened to the core labour vote in the last election?

molgrips - Member

After all, the Labour message - help the poor, help the working classes, invest in public services and so on - shouldn't be a particularly difficult concept to sell, should it?

Maybe not but the Tories did a stunningly effective hatchet job on the government spending and undermined voter confidence in any Labour economic policies.

Labour seem to have responded to that by not actually having any economic policies.

Labour seem to have responded to that by not actually having any economic policies.

In the world of posttruthpolitics who needs actual policies? And economics??? Just look north of the border....

No one worries about reality, only rhetoric.

No one worries about reality, only rhetoric.

They could at least pretend.

yS
Trump
Brexit BS

...and the lessons are?

see the link that kimbers posted to the Guardian today (i think) and google the FT's view on this 😉

jambalaya - Member

Principled opposition is what the Green Party do, to absolutely zero effect.

And Labour under Corbyn, it seems, to similar effect.

Edit: And it seems that the party members are happy with that.

Gosh, 17-15 vote to have secret ballot at NEC, assumption is anti Corbyns want secrecy so he wont get on ballot automatically.

On WatO today the chap who wrote the Labour Party leadership election rules was saying Corbyn needs 51 nominees. A lawyer came on and said he really doesn't. The rules seem pretty clear to me, IMO he doesn't need any nominees.

Corbyn told to leave room, refuses.

The Labour Party is playing an absolute blinder here at looking the like the most incompetent bunch of *-wits ever to grace the political stage. The legacy of this utter debacle is that whoever 'wins' is going to look so utterly incapable of organising a piss up in a brewery that nobody would vote for them to run a *ing bath, let alone the country.

Footage of the present NEC meeting just released...

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The rules seem pretty clear to me, IMO he doesn't need any nominees.

That's my reading but apparently the NEC have an overiding right to amend the rules, which they can claim justifiable in view of the no confidence vote.

After all, the Labour message - help the poor, help the working classes, invest in public services and so on - shouldn't be a particularly difficult concept to sell, should it?

I actually think it is more difficult than you think, particularly in England where a larger % of the population work in the private sector.

The better message is this party will ensure a secure country in which people can grow the economy and so everyone has opportunity and is better off.

yS
Trump
Brexit BS

...and the lessons are?

I got in huge trouble for suggesting that which you are insinuating.

Yay,THM is getting in the digs at Scotland! Remember,we aren't interested in economics up here,we just hate the English.

If you say so duckie - i was actually referring specifically to the yS strategy, but feel free to generalise if appropriate, you will know better than me.

4. There are obvious alternatives - oops, sorry take it all back.

This is the real problem. The blairites, comfortable in their hubris and arrogance, thought they'd cracked the problem of governing forever, and populated the PLP with a bunch of careerist, principle free, obedient automatons straight from an Oxford debating chamber. Then they asked them to run the country. When the likes of Cooper, Balls, Burnham, Reeves, Miliband and the like proved to be completely out of their depth and unable to inspire anyone other than a guardian hack, the party faithful turned to someone who actually had something to say about the state of the world and how it affects normal people. He may say it in woolly language and look a bit unkempt, but at least he had something to say, unlike the rest of the idiots banging on about 'aspiration' and 'changing the narrative'.

Hilarious some are trying to stop JC being on the ballot paper...what does that say about democracy and even worse..what do they think their role is if it's not to be serving their supporters interests/wishes...you couldn't make it up... 😀

Secret ballott - definitely not in JC's favour

No one is stopping him standing, he just needs 50 MPs or even MEP's - he could be saved by Europe 🙂

Why does he need 50 MPs to nominate him now when he is in post and there isn't a leadereship contest but only needed 30 last time when there was? Rules seem a bit odd.

Are they really trying to lawyer him off the ballot paper? What a gang of shithouses - just grasp the nettle and put him to bed fair and square.

I actually think it is more difficult than you think, particularly in England where a larger % of the population work in the private sector.

Well that illustrates my point. It's got nothing to do with public vs private sector employment. The private sector has a lot of low and middle income people who aren't self employed or entrepreneurs, and everyone uses public services.

Most people support the taxing of the filthy rich businesses and people for spending on public services, I'm sure. So how come no-one wants to make that manifesto commitment?

The Labour party hasn't been able to get its message across for years. Blair's message wasn't nt really one of Labour.

This is really going to liven things up.

ost people support the taxing of the filthy rich businesses and people for spending on public services, I'm sure. So how come no-one wants to make that manifesto commitment?

Why does he need 50 MPs to nominate him now when he is in post and there isn't a leadereship contest but only needed 30 last time when there was? Rules seem a bit odd.

Not sure he will need 50, 50 applies to challengers, 30 odd when there is a vacancy. If he resigns then he would reduce his requirement to 30 odd immediately.

Most people support the taxing of the filthy rich businesses and people for spending on public services, I'm sure. So how come no-one wants to make that manifesto commitment?

Courageous.

Because most people know it doesn't work.

Cos most people have fallen for Tory bullshit. Impressive, isn't it?

Or they understand the concept of tax income elasticity, perhaps?

Even labour in power got this until they set their little trap for their Tory friends

Hardly see what happened in France recently.

IME a lot of people start getting twitchy with tax rates greater than 50%.

Most people support the taxing of the filthy rich businesses and people for spending on public services, I'm sure. So how come no-one wants to make that manifesto commitment?

“We vote when we go to the poll
And think we have final control
But really we dance
To the tune of finance
We have pawned ourselves body and soul."

Tax income elasticity...is that the thing you call it that makes people rich whilst child poverty remains static, increases food bank need, closes spaces for learning, increases the numbers of suicides etc etc..is tbat what you mean @thm...people knowingly vote for that and it's called income tax income elasticity...I call it it something else...

"I call it it something else..."

Laffer Curve.

"ii: Where there is no vacancy nominations may be sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of Party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20% of the combined Commons members of the PLP and members of the EPLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void."

I can only read this as the sitting candidate requires no nomination and no 20pc support. Only challengers require it. I'm amazed there's a debate about it.