Jeremy Corbyn

you can choose which imaginary sky fairy you believe in

You could only say something so ignorant and offensive if you really wanted an excuse to be as much of an arsehole as possible.

Is that your aim?

You could only say something so ignorant and offensive if you really wanted an excuse to be as much of an arsehole as possible.

Is that your aim?

You're more than free to believe that Joshua Smith was given the golden plates by the Angel Moroni if you wish Molgrips

I think its dum-dum-dum-dum-dum

You could only say something so ignorant and offensive if you really wanted an excuse to be as much of an arsehole as possible.

Seemed like a silly troll to me, that could only be taken at face value by an idiot.

😆

Blimey - have folk round for dinner/bridge and the harmless posts get deleted 😯

Blimey - have folk round for dinner/bridge and the harmless posts get deleted 😯

You don't think the harmless posts should get deleted when you have people round for dinner/bridge ?

Why is that ?

Cheers Nifan for responding to my post...

Angela Eagle leadership contest getting announced on Monday.

She's taken her time....

But why chose another unsuitable candidate - all very odd?

It is odd, no idea why she thinks she's electable more than corbyn, considering only reason the public know of her is because of corbyn.

tbh I just hope this is the first act of the splitting of the party. I really can't see how any of this is reconcilable?

PPE at Oxford - more of the new politics 😉

But a good chess player and an economist - so look on the bright side!!

Ffs why do some people still think it's about winning elections? It's about stopping Corbyn. The rebel Labour MPs have done far more damage to the Labour Party than anyone else. They really don't care that much.

And they want to stop Corbyn because they'll be deselected at the next election.

Ffs why do some people still think it's about winning elections? It's about stopping Corbyn.

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

This PLP drive seems to be all about stopping/getting rid of Corbyn for the simple reason that they perceive that he will prevent them from winning the net election.

And they want to stop Corbyn because they'll be deselected at the next election.

There's a multitude of reasons why they want to stop him all based on some fundamental differences between someone like Angela Eagle and Corbyn. For example Eagle voted in favour of the Iraq War, of course she wasn't the only one, but having seen the appalling disaster and human suffering which resulted from the worse foreign policy blunder in modern UK history her reaction was as follows :

[i]On 22 Oct 2003: Angela Eagle voted against a comprehensive independent judicial inquiry into the Iraq war.

On 22 Oct 2003: Angela Eagle voted against a further inquiry into the war in Iraq.

On 31 Oct 2006: Angela Eagle voted against an inquiry into the Iraq war by a select committee of Privy Counsellors.

On 31 Oct 2006: Angela Eagle voted against a further inquiry into the war in Iraq.

On 11 Jun 2007: Angela Eagle voted against the principle that there should be an inquiry into the Iraq War by an independent committee of Privy Counsellors. [/i]

Gordon Brown who also voted in favour of the Iraq War set in up the Chilcot Iraq Inquiry under immense public pressure :

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7945346.stm ]Majority 'want Iraq war inquiry'[/url]

Angela Eagle would have much rather that the disastrous consequences of the Iraq War be brushed under the carpet and quietly forgotten. Which not only puts her at odds with the majority of Labour Party members but also puts her at odds with the majority of voters.

In contrast Corbyn takes a completely opposite view which puts him much closer to the majority of voters.

And not only did he oppose going to war but even before the vote was taken in Parliament he publicly claimed :

[b][i]“It will set off a spiral of conflict, of hate, of misery, of desperation that will fuel the wars, the conflict, the terrorism, the depression and the misery of future generations.”[/i][/b]

That was 13 years ago. Today Corbyn has been vindicated and Eagle stands condemned.

Eagle swoops:

[img] [/img]

That was 13 years ago. Today Corbyn has been vindicated and Eagle stands condemned.

And with whats going on in this country at the moment, the Iraq war is going to be at the very issue that people are going to be looking to when they're voting in the next election.

Ernie - its these kind of leftie obsessions, along with Trident, that make Corbyn unelectable. These just aren't the things that normal voters are bothered about at election time. To use Clintons old adage 'its the economy' stupid'. What are Corbyn's economic policies? I haven't a ****ing clue? Have you? But I know he'll bang on about Trident and Iraq ad bloody nauseum

Its 6th form common room politics, which rarely survives exposure to the real world

along with Trident

Amongst all the other news today - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36754911 ]Trident gateway vote has been announced for the 18th[/url]

Which way should Labour MP's vote - party policy or leadership?

I think the Tories have just placed another elephant trap, what do you think Labour are going to do, jump straight into it?

Thats exactly what I thought as well when I heard that. Dave's not daft. He's sat back and thought 'what can I do that will absolutely ensure that labour self destructs?' And the answer was....

Trident!

Its one of Corbyn and his teams lines in the sand. One of their 80's style sacred cows. They'll forget about Europe, the economy, the NHS, the Tory party, everything!.... and just bang on and on and on and on about it, with all the passion they couldn't be arsed mustering up for the EU referendum. Or anything else important for that matter

Like I said.... 6th form common room politics. Its tragic that thats now all the labour party 'leadership' can be bothered about. Back to the 80's we go Comrade. In every unelectable way imaginable

@thm - my other half did PPE at Oxford and she's nothing like the new politics you suggest and articles like The Spectator does too...it all depends on your ideology and values as to how you use the education...the education itself does not maketh the man/woman...

Ernie - its these kind of leftie obsessions, along with Trident, that make Corbyn unelectable.

Its 6th form common room politics, which rarely survives exposure to the real world

Corbyn has plenty say on matters such as welfare cuts (Angela Eagle believes she was elected to abstain from voting against the Tories on such matters) housing, the living wage, gender equality, the NHS, privatisation, people’s quantitative easing, tax avoidance, education, immigration, and the arts.

The majority of Labour Party members didn't choose him as their leader because he has nothing to say. Obviously.

As far as opposition to Trident making Corbyn "unelectable" is concerned the SNP in Scotland have proved how you can have a strong anti-Trident commitment and wipe out all the opposition in elections You just have to make the case against Trident - something which before Corbyn the Labour Party hasn't been prepared to do.

Hadn't you noticed how opposition to Trident hasn't made the SNP "unelectable" binners? I have to say for someone who claims to read the Guardian I'm quite frankly stunned by how clueless you appear to be.

As far as opposition to Trident making Corbyn "unelectable" is concerned

You just have to make the case against Trident - something which before Corbyn the Labour Party hasn't been prepared to do.

But Labour Party policy is to keep it...

Yes and? binners claims that opposition to Trident makes Corbyn "unelectable".

Edit in response to your edit ninfan : Yes you have to make the case against Trident, just like the SNP has done. Well done for emphasising my point.

Anyways, I've got better things to do than argue with binners and ninfan over Corbyn As I have already pointed out binners will rant about whoever is leader of the Labour Party, and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right.

Carry on.

Have you noticed how scotland and the rest of the Uk seem to vote differently? As the SNP dont control the nuclear policy one can ignore their views on it when considering voting for them. they coudl wish to replace the army with social workers who do homeopathy...it will have no affect on UK policy.

The issue is can they win votes in Engerland as that is how labour will win an election

Have you any proof a disarmament view is popular?

Dont get me wrong i am one but i dont think its anything like a majority view here and i think its pretty difficult to argue it is anything other than a vote loser. That said I am enjoying seeing you try.

Its also worth noticing what the labour conference said on the matter. Its a bit rich of corbyn to say to MPs respect the membership and then he chooses to ignore them himself.

As Binners point out, to the vast majority it seems to be a fringe issue

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-britain-scrap-trident/21868

and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right.

Seems to me that evidence shows that I am exactly the type of potential swing voter (though admittedly in a fairly safe seat with. 24k majority) that labour needs to win the next election. Particularly when I think both the current Tory leadership choices are bloody awful.

@thm - my other half did PPE at Oxford and she's nothing like the new politics you suggest

I am not sure I have suggested anything. I merely note the irony of the world of new politics being led potentially by someone whose frames of reference are very similar to those of the the past

it all depends on your ideology and values as to how you use the education...the education itself does not maketh the man/woman...

Discuss....

I am exactly the type of potential swing voter

ninfan - Member

"and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right".

Seems to me that evidence shows that I am exactly the type of potential swing voter (though admittedly in a fairly safe seat with. 24k majority) that labour needs to win the next election.

The last thing I want is for the Labour Party to appeal to people like you. If you don't mind me saying.

Not only would appealing to the Tory-right put me off supporting Labour but it would put off whole swathes of traditional Labour voters. Many would just give up voting all together. After all, what would be the point? Just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government - that's what I would do.

The last thing I want is for the Labour Party to appeal to people like you. If you don't mind me saying.

Not only would appealing to the Tory-right put me off supporting Labour but it would put off whole swathes of traditional Labour voters. Many would just give up voting all together. After all, what would be the point? Just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government - that's what I would do.

Is it a nice video ninfan? Does it explain why someone who deeply admires the Tory-right should vote Labour rather than Tory?

If you'll excuse me I'll save myself the bother of watching it and stick with my rather controversial opinion that you should just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government.

Well, I can only say that I hope you enjoy your years in the wilderness as much as you did last time 😆

I'm not sure why you think Labour governments behaving like Tory governments is preferable to Tory governments behaving like Tory governments.

Nor am I sure why you think Corbyn as leader consigns Labour to the "wilderness" when all election results since he became leader provide no evidence of this - maybe you think the obviously very destructive behaviour of the PLP will bring this about?

But thanks for your kind words anyway. There's nothing more touching than an extreme right-wing Tory/UKIPer like yourself showing concern for the well-being of the Labour Party.

binners - Member
...Trident!

Its one of Corbyn and his teams lines in the sand. One of their 80's style sacred cows. They'll forget about Europe, the economy, the NHS, the Tory party, everything!.... and just bang on and on and on and on about it, with all the passion they couldn't be arsed mustering up for the EU referendum...

Yeah, it's not as if a hideous death for the majority of the population is that important...

We can't independently use it. So it's use will be in a nuclear holocaust, and everyone will die horribly.

We don't want a govt that would independently use it, because then we'd die horribly.

Having it makes us a nuclear target, so we could die horribly anyway.

And as we've seen there's some rightwing Fwits in our govt who like to "punch above our weight".

So yeah, not really that important.

For the sake of your children and family do some reading on what happens in a nuclear explosion, and these things are far more powerful than used in Japan. There's better options than having our families exterminated to fulfil the rightwing agenda of some psychopath.

Trident trumps economics.

So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react? They are still going to have no confidence in him - do they resign on mass (which is what they should do)and let UKIP in with lots of by-elections or just ignore the party whip and leave us with not effective opposition or do they go to the Lib Dems?? Is it hypocritical of JC to be calling for unity when he voted against his party on hundreds of occasions???Confused of Swansea.

"Yeah, it's not as if a hideous death for the majority of the population is that important...
We can't independently use it.
We don't want a govt that would independently use it, because then we'd all be dead.
Having it makes us a nuclear target, so we could all be horribly dead anyway.
And as we've seen there's some rightwing Fwits in our govt who like to "punch above our weight".
So yeah, not really that important.
For the sake of your children and family do some reading on what happens in a nuclear explosion, and these things are far more powerful than used in Japan."

Broadly agree. It's not independent, and its not a deterrent. Moreover by being in NATO we get to freeload off everyone else's deterrent.

However, Labour party policy is to keep Trident.

Corbyn (rightly IMV) thinks policy should be decided by conference. Corbyn (rightly IMV) thinks Trident should be scrapped.

So which honourable principle is he going to betray? Whatever happens (free vote?) is going to be a total farce.

The PLP is there to represent the interests of the members and the people who elected them
They stood on a labour platform and this is what the party wants. Should Tory MPs who dont get their way do a similar strop?

If they want to be part of a democratic parry then they need to

1) do as the members say as they "own " the party not them
2) form a new party and consign us all to tory rule.

Is it hypocritical of JC to be calling for unity when he voted against his party on hundreds of occasions???

TBH i have no idea how this ends as there is a genuine disconnect between what members want and what Mps want If the MP's cannot respect the party then they should resign. Open revolt serves only to harm the party at a time when the country needs leadership and open.

Unless one side blink this is going to be a mess for at least this entire term if not longer.

Personally I think he needs to be given more time and I think the way to attract voters is to offer an actual alternative to the Tories rather than just being less tory than the tories.

It may well not work but I care little for whether we have a blue tory or a red tory.

So which honourable principle is he going to betray? Whatever happens (free vote?) is going to be a total farce.

I think it would be better if we had a list where Mps were actually free to decide free of party influence/pressure/interference.
It also probably more accurately reflects their real views and makes them far more accountable to their local electorate as you really do get what you vote for rather than a party stooge.

So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react?

😆

Yes Corbyn got more votes than all the other candidates put together because Momentum, which didn't even exist at the time, rigged the election.

Something which no one appears to have noticed apart from you.

EDIT : Apologies to ninfan - I falsely attributed that comment to you.

Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time. Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party.

"Personally I think the parties should whip a lot less as many issues"

I am mighty hacked of with adversarial politics.

I'd be interested to know if any other democracies found a way to make a non-adversarial democracy work and how they did it.

Getting back to the point concerning Angela Eagle's announcement that she will launch a bid to become leader on Monday, I suspect that she has received new legal advice that the PLP will be able to exclude Corbyn from the ballot paper, otherwise the whole exercise could prove rather humiliating for her. It would also explain Tom Watson's sudden change in stance.

Bearing in mind the known feelings of Labour Party members that would indeed represent a "rigged election".

Of course if it turns out that she is the only nomination then they won't even have to bother with having an election at all, as was the case when Gordon Brown became leader.

"Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time. Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party."

Maybe you could have a system where MPs could nominate candidates. Say each leader candidate had to get say 30 or 40 nominations.

That would completely protect the party from bat-sh1t mental candidates who happened to be popular with the members...

Ahhh, hang on...

Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time.

It's clear what you said :

[i]"So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react? "[/i]

The obvious inference is that the PLP are behaving the way they are because of a rigged election. If you were referring to the PLP's future behaviour you should have said so.

Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door

60% of the the vote? No.

Corbyn easily won the leadership vote among all the sections - individual party members, affiliated party members, and party supporters.

It was a fair election which no one disputes. Except for the PLP because they don't like the result. Or at least approximately three quarters of them don't.

Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party

Looks like they may even be doing a coronation rather than an election

It is clear what I said - I am assuming there will be a leadership contest - so 'if JC wins the leadership contest (coming up)....

I would have thought that was clear even to you ernie.

The ones attempting the takeover are the PLP

If you look at the historical position, the policy for many dacades was that the PLP exclusively selected the leader.

But of course, back then the Labour party still thought it was important to try and win elections...

Gordon Brown tried to win an election, Ed Milliband tried to win an election they couldn't because the Tories just said "Labour they're like us plus they ****ed up the economy, privatise NHS? yep Labour, academies? yep Labour etc etc"

Labour need to get away from New Labour and offer a genuine alternative to the Tories and to their previous selves.

Miliband lost for one reason only: People were (Rightly or wrongly) scared of a Labour/SNP coalition.

I'll be in a minority of 1 on this but I agree with Blair that Brown could have won if he'd defended Labours record instead of pretty much accepting the narrative that Labour ****ed up. Both elections were close after all.

Its an interesting question though, what's the point in democracy if the only people whos votes matter are a few hundred thousand centrists in marginal seats.

I'll be in a minority of 1 on this but I agree with Blair that Brown could have won if he'd defended Labours record instead of pretty much accepting the narrative that Labour ****ed up.

Miliband lost for one reason only: People were (Rightly or wrongly) scared of a Labour/SNP coalition.

Really????????

Is this the narrative that elected Corbyn?

Really????????

All those question marks suggests that you are impatient for the answer. Let me help :

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07/07/labour-snp-coalition-poll-general-election-2015_n_7741776.html ]Labour Lost 2015 General Election Over SNP Coalition Fear, Poll Finds][/url]

[i]"Conservative campaigns that warned of a Labour-SNP coalition in the aftermath of the May 2015 General Election were key to David Cameron remaining prime minister, new research has revealed."[/i]

I suspect that she has received new legal advice that the PLP will be able to exclude Corbyn from the ballot paper

Nail on head. It's the only possible explanation. She can't possibly think she can win against Corbyn, let alone succeed where Miliband failed in an election and where they expect Corbyn to fail. Presumably if they succeed in Corbyn being excluded then someone else will join the leadership ballot?

I really don't know where this will lead. The PLP had the option of splitting, but they don't have the balls to do that, so they think they can override the members, so now the ball's in the membership's court, and if Corbyn isn't on the ballot then god knows what will happen.

What I don't understand is why Corbyn didn't take the option of stepping aside in return for a guarantee that a leftwing candidate would be on the ballot. Seems like the politics are secondary to the personalities. Not like the left wing to become obsessed with personalities is it? They never bloody learn.

Nail on head.

Not quite. It's slightly more complicated than that. I suggested : [i]"the PLP will be able to exclude Corbyn from the ballot paper"[/i] but in fact it will be the NEC which decides how any leadership ballot is conducted.

Of course an individual in the PLP might be able to exclude Corbyn from the ballot paper by mounting a legal challenge to the NEC's decision.

This however might not be necessary as the New Labour/Blairites on the NEC still have very significant clout, so they might exclude him anyway.

Although the timing of the coup might be significant as the NEC is at present undergoing nominations/elections for representatives. Judging by the mood in the party towards the Blairite wing, not least with this week's publication of Chilcot's report, it is reasonable to assume that the NEC might next month take on a less New Labour character.

I reckon the plotters might have considered this and it contributed to the timing of their coup.

Just to add to my previous post it should be perhaps pointed out that although any challenger to the Leader requires the nominations of 20% of MPs, ie 51 nominations, the Leader only needs 15%, ie 38 nominations. So as 40 MPs voted to support Corbyn in the confidence vote it would suggest that he has the 38 required to be on the ballot paper.

However you have to assume that the plotters have done their homework, defeat will be very humiliating for them and will also simply leave Corbyn in a stronger position, so presumably they believe that under pressure from them at least 3 of the 40 won't nominate him.

probably best timing for all this for labour leadership in a selfish way for the labour party. Their opposition at the moment is against a prime minister on his way out who in all honesty cgaf. So you may as well get your own house in order whilst everyone slumps in their post eu hangover.

Problem is Angela Eagle is the best they have got to offer? I mean if your gonna rebel at least have a succession plan, wasn't that the problem with Blair and the right of labour in the Chilcott report? FFS learn. Its the blair era that lost the labour base vote.

I do think there is a few good potential future labour leaders keeping their nose clean in all this. I think Corbyn will put labour on the right path then a slightly more right of Corbyn leader will come in at the next labour crisis but still be no-where near current labour right.

Suspect you are true ernie and I supect some fo the 40 did it for loalty and can be leant on.

What I don't understand is why Corbyn didn't take the option of stepping aside in return for a guarantee that a leftwing candidate would be on the ballot. Seems like the politics are secondary to the personalities.

WTF should he stand down?

Its pretty hard for an elected leader to do the right thing and hand the party back to some folk he must, frankly, despise personally and now politically.They are making the problem here not him

The reality is Corbyn cannot lead the PLP but he is the parties choice
Personally I think the PLP need to adjust as they cannot just ignore the members. I see little chance of this happening and I am not sure why all the moral pressure is on Corbyn to do the right thing He is the rightful elected leader who will win again if allowed to stand That is hardly a weak position to be in. If the blairites win it just splits the party at grass roots. If corbyn wins it splits the party at the PLP level

Neither is a great option at all. I dont see a compromise choice personally.

Junkyard - lazarus
....Neither is a great option at all. I dont see a compromise choice personally.

The Blairites could simply cross the floor and join the party they really aspire to be.

"it should be perhaps pointed out that although any challenger to the Leader requires the nominations of 20% of MPs, ie 51 nominations, the Leader only needs 15%, ie 38 nominations"

How are JCs followers arguing he doesn't need nominations if it's written in the rules that he needs 15pc?

The reality is Corbyn cannot lead the PLP but he is the parties choice

Its been pointe out repeatedly that the party members are not representative of the electorate - by nature you end up with those with the strongest opinions and feelings, many of whom are, frankly, bonkers.

Look at it this another way, what type of person would actually [b]join[/b] the Conservative party? The Tories would have to be utterly crazy to let them dictate their policy or leadership (even giving them the current choice of Kang and Kodos is pretty foolish IMO)

The Blairites could simply cross the floor and join the party they really aspire to be.

Since it's become the latest Pavlovian 'slur du jour' against anyone who even cares to question Corbyn - how about you define 'blairite'?
What/who do you really mean? Are you really suggesting that, say, former postman, communist and communication workers union leader Alan Johnson is really secretly a closet Tory? Go and read his autobiography and maybe give your head a good shake to let the sawdust fall out.

ninfan - M...er
...Since it's become the latest Pavlovian 'slur du jour' against anyone who even cares to question Corbyn - how about you define 'blairite'?...

I would judge by actions not words, so start with anyone who supported the Iraq war, and did not actively vote against the austerity measures and other peasant/worker crushing agendas of the Tories, and not actively opposed to the reaming of the NHS. And a Blairite usually supports the weapons of Mass Murder (aka Trident).

I would actually prefer not to use the word Blairites, but calling them Tories is so confusing while they are still in the Labour Party.

Maybe I should use the Scottish term - Red Tories.

The last thing I want is for the Labour Party to appeal to people like you. If you don't mind me saying.

......and there you have it. In a nutshell. Why the Corbyn labour party is unelectable. Far more concerned with gobbing off about points of principle, which are worn like badges of honour, rather than even attempt to appeal to anyone who doesn't share their narrow, self-righteous worldview. Successful politicians - ones who win elections - are pragmatic and understand that most things involve compromise.

There are few things less appealing to most people in a centrist country like the UK, than some one insisting in the fact that their way is the 'One True Path' and telling people they are just wrong for not seeing that. Thats true for the militant lefties of Momentum, and if (as I suspect they're about to) the Tory's elect Leadsom, I suspect we'll soon see how unpalatable people find her extremely right-wing, Bill Cash style attitudes too. She'll be turfed out at the first opportunities.

Tony Blair was electable. As he proved repeatedly. No matter how much this winds the lefties up
David Cameron was electable. As he's jusyproved, before throwing it away.
Jeremy Corbyn is in no way electable. Too left wing by far for most people.
Andrea Leadsom is in no way electable. Too right wing by far for most people.

So given that UK elections are won on the centre ground. To go into the next general election with those two as party leaders would simply have to see both of them rejected, and the formation of a more centrist politics with refugees from both the less rabid, more moderate left and right.

Hello there Lib Dems. So recently seen as political toast. Now suddenly seeing their opportunity to be reborn and relevant once more

Modern politics, since the last GE is absolutely bonkers!

I would judge by actions not words, so start with anyone who supported the Iraq war, and did not actively vote against the austerity measures and other peasant/worker crushing agendas of the Tories, and not actively opposed to the reaming of the NHS. And a Blairite usually supports the weapons of Mass Murder (aka Trident).

So, essentially, everyone who supported Labour Party policy, as set out by the JPC 😯

Andrea Leadsom is in no way electable. Too right wing by far for most people.

Agreed 100%, and to be honest I think much the same about Theresa.

However you have to assume that the plotters have done their homework, defeat will be very humiliating for them and will also simply leave Corbyn in a stronger position

Captain of the Titanic?

However you have to assume that the plotters have done their homework, defeat will be very humiliating for them and will also simply leave Corbyn in a stronger position

He has barely enough MPs for a Shadow cabinet and some in prominent positions have virtually no experience. That doesn't make him stronger

......and there you have it. In a nutshell. Why the Corbyn labour party is unelectable. Far more concerned with gobbing off about points of principle, which are worn like badges of honour, rather than even attempt to appeal to anyone who doesn't share their narrow, self-righteous worldview. Successful politicians - ones who win elections - are pragmatic and understand that most things involve compromise.

There are few things less appealing to most people in a centrist country like the UK, than some one insisting in the fact that their way is the 'One True Path' and telling people they are just wrong for not seeing that. Thats true for the militant lefties of Momentum, and if (as I suspect they're about to) the Tory's elect Leadsom, I suspect we'll soon see how unpalatable people find her extremely right-wing, Bill Cash style attitudes too. She'll be turfed out at the first opportunities.

Tony Blair was electable. As he proved repeatedly. No matter how much this winds the lefties up
David Cameron was electable. As he's jusyproved, before throwing it away.
Jeremy Corbyn is in no way electable. Too left wing by far for most people.
Andrea Leadsom is in no way electable. Too right wing by far for most people.

So given that UK elections are won on the centre ground. To go into the next general election with those two as party leaders would simply have to see both of them rejected, and the formation of a more centrist politics with refugees from both the less rabid, more moderate left and right.

Hello there Lib Dems. So recently seen as political toast. Now suddenly seeing their opportunity to be reborn and relevant once more

Modern politics, since the last GE is absolutely bonkers!

That's pretty spot on.

I like Corbyn, but he's no leader, and certainly not one to unite a split country.

Similarly, I can't believe the Tories think May and Leadsome are in any way electable.

Similarly, I can't believe the Tories think May and Leadsome are in any way electable.

Joined Labour this weekend, go Jezza!

Similarly, I can't believe the Tories think May and Leadsome are in any way electable.

They don't need to be thanks to JC. Gove may have been a step too far though.

As binners said: Now is the time for the Lib Dems to step up.

As binners said: Now is the time for the Lib Dems to step up.

They are in disarray too, electoral losses hit them hard and they've had to cut infrastructure. I don't see too many seats the Lib Dems are going to take back or threaten Tories on. How are they going to get any airtime from Tories/Brexit and Labour in-fighting ? All a long way away anyway.

Simple - "we respect the referendum, but we don't agree. We are the only party at this GE who are standing 100% to remain in Europe."

A unique proposition that most (now) would support.

I don't see too many seats the Lib Dems are going to take back or threaten Tories on.

You're missing the point Jammers. The world has just changed. Things are most certainly not what they were a few weeks ago. The ground is shifting under the politicians feet.

You can't see the Lib Dems taking back seats? Hmmmmmmm.... surely that depends entirely on just how mental the Tories are about to get?

Given that Leadsom (who I reckon, given the present mood of the Tory's is a dead cert) is in the Bill Cash/IDS wing of the fully-paid-up barking mad, We-Hate-****ing-EVERYONE Nasty Party, how long are more moderate centrist voters going to find their actions any more palatable that the Bargain Basement Lenin at the other end of the political spectrum? I can't see many people other than the frankly insane hang 'em and flog 'em brigade of the Tory right finding them very appealing. Can you?

Actually... I'm probably asking the wrong person, aren't I? 😉

The voters have been offered this Uber-Daily Mail style Tory party twice before. Once under IDS himself, and once under Michael Howard. Both gifted labour landslides. Granted that was an electable labour party. A centrist, moderate, dare I say it.... 'Blairite' labour party 😯

how long are more moderate centrist voters going to find their actions any more palatable

"its the economy stupid"

In contrast, to what Jezza said this morning, unemployment is down, inflation is subdued, inequality has fallen, wages are increasing.

Plus we have a swivvel-eyed RW looney Austerity Chancellor (no really) who has just abandoned his fiscal targets to continue with a (relatively) loose fiscal stance.

Now, ok, Brexit puts a lot of this into question but I doubt whether any future Tory PM is going to want to jeopardise this - why would they?

Now, ok, Brexit puts a lot of this into question but I doubt whether any future Tory PM is going to want to jeopardise this - why would they?

Because I can see it happening already. People voted to leave Europe for a lot of different reasons. But you can see it in the eyes of the Tory Right that they think what this represents is a general lurch away from the centre ground, and to the right, on matters other than Europe. They think this is their moment.

Just as the lefties in labour have always had this bonkers belief that some day the majority will miraculously become socialists and vote them in, the Tory Right are just as misguided in believing a majority are going to suddenly be converted to their frankly insane worldview.

You're looking at things logically Hurty. You may not have noticed but thats the one thing thats in pretty short supply in Westminster at the moment

True

But, dont forget once the dust has settled, these are people who react to the events in front of them. They are not in control. And they crave one thing above all - POWER.

GO is a good example - his actions are completely different from the rhetoric that surrounds them. He is undertaking a combination of ultra-loose monetary policy with loose fiscal policy and indirectly a weaker currency policy. Which bit of the ultra RW manual does this come out of?

Actually... I'm probably asking the wrong person, aren't I?

🙂

My 2 cents is that we and much of Europe has moved to the right. This is due to a number of factors not least a degree of economic hardship which generally hardens attitudes.

Tory appeal to centre ground is strong, as we've seen with the whole UKIP debate over last 5+ years its actually strengthened the Tories and we now have a Brexit vote. Those here hoping that Teresa May is somehow going to deliver the left/centre ground an electoral gift are much mistaken imo. I'm sure we'll see a load of Thatcher comparisons which will appeal to the Corbynistas but imo that'll win nothing.

I don't believe GO is ultra right wing at all Hurty. Thats the point. George and Dave have been pretty centrist. Well ... compared to the loons who now look like getting their hands on the steering wheel. Osborne is finished. And so, I suspect, is his philosophy.

I can just imagine the loony tunes, free market slash and burn economic policies that IDS and Leadsom have in mind, given the present vacuum where the opposition is meant to be