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Looks like a very good strategy. Let the Tories deliver Brexit and pay the cost, get elected as part of the aftermath leading a Labour government with the UK out of the EU just as they always wanted. If you don’t like that don’t vote for them but you can’t fault the strategy.
I agree that this is the policy, but do you think it'll really be the Tory's paying the price?
Of course, it won't.
It'll be us mugs who lose our jobs, who's businesses go bust, etc, etc, etc....
The labour party has clearly decided that that is indeed a price worth paying for their promised socialist utopia
Brilliant!
What does Corbyn have to say about a possible future referendum in Scotland? Or should we just assume a multiple policy approach here as well?
Same old 'to me... to you' policy we've seen on Brexit, as it's gone so well
The Scottish Labour party have already kicked off about it, saying this is not policy party, and it's very clear this is the first they'd heard about it
Still... an internal party battle for being seen to be useless on a Scottish ref is a useful distraction for being hopeless on Brexit
The labour party has clearly decided that that is indeed a price worth paying for their promised socialist utopia
You're mixing up labour and the tories again. Labour have a clear policy to protect jobs with a permanent customs union and de-facto singlemarket membership. If that's not possible, and even if it is, they're offering a second referendum where we'll get the chance to stop brexit altogether. We have the simple choice to take that chance or put all our chips on the libdems winning power. You're a betting man aren't you? Do the maths.
The Scottish Labour party have already kicked off about it, saying this is not policy party, and it’s very clear this is the first they’d heard about it
Since when has an off the cuff opinion by a labour shadow cabinet member automatically become party policy? One of the things that sets apart the current labour party from that under Blair and Brown is that MPs are free to express their opinions on policy rather than stick rigidly to a party line and message discipline. It's pretty ironic that many on here stupidly compare labour to the soviet communist party, yet then complain that they're not all saying the same thing and are going off message.
Labour have a clear policy to protect jobs with a permanent customs union and de-facto singlemarket membership.
Interesting description of a “clear policy”… but if it is as you describe won’t the public see that as the Brexit vote being overturned? All signs so far suggest many will.
we’ll get the chance to stop brexit altogether
Won’t much of the public see that as the Brexit vote being overturned?
Crossing the streams… a quote from you…
Go back a couple of hundred pages and you’ll see I said this would happen if the public thought the brexit vote was being overturned.
So… whatever you consider the Labour policy, in all circumstances, carries the danger of “The Public” (or rather the significant minority desperate to Leave) considering it to be an overturning of the Brexit vote… but we should still be angry with “Hard Remainers” who seek a policy that would also be seen by “The Public” as an overturning of the Brexit vote?
One of the things that sets apart the current labour party from that under Blair and Brown is that MPs are free to express their opinions on policy rather than stick rigidly to a party line and message discipline
Remind me... Corbyn voted against the Blair/Brown Labour government how many times?
Ahem...
Between 1997 and 2010, during the most recent Labour Government, Corbyn was the Labour MP who voted most often against the party whip, including three-line whip votes. In 2005 he was identified as the second most rebellious Labour MP of all time when the party was in government.[87] He was the most rebellious Labour MP in the 1997–2001 Parliament,[88] the 2001–2005 Parliament[89] and the 2005–2010 Parliament, defying the whip 428 times while Labour was in power
Bloody New Labour control freaks and their Stalinist ways
Back bench MPs speaking their mind and voting with their conscience, and the Shadow Cabinet not having a clear stated policy, are not the same thing.
The country is used to back bench MPs rebelling (and they should). What they are currently getting used to is not having a clue what the Shadow Cabinet would be doing if they became the government. That is a failure of leadership.
Crossing the streams…
I'll think you'll find I'm on record as saying a second referendum isn't a great idea IMO because remain will probably lose again for the reasons I've stated many times and it will deepen divisions. The fact is though that it's the only currently available and achievable method of stopping brexit, if that's what you want.
Nice to see you acknowledging finally though that overturning brexit is something that is possible under labour policy. I presume you'll be voting for them then. 😉
I agree that this is the policy, but do you think it’ll really be the Tory’s paying the price?
Of course, it won’t.
It’ll be us mugs who lose our jobs, who’s businesses go bust, etc, etc, etc….
The labour party has clearly decided that that is indeed a price worth paying for their promised socialist utopia
Yes, the tories will pay the price by not being in power. And yes it may be a price worth paying if Labour plans get put in place as it would a much better country to live in for the majority of people. How many job losses and businesses going bust is an unknown at this point.
I agree that this is the policy, but do you think it’ll really be the Tory’s paying the price?
Of course, it won’t.
It’ll be us mugs who lose our jobs, who’s businesses go bust, etc, etc, etc….
The labour party has clearly decided that that is indeed a price worth paying for their promised socialist utopia
If you follow their ...logic, this is helpful, they imagine that the Conservatives are helping Labour to bring about a British version of Venuzuela.
Anyway, Islington Labour has wiped out the reason for the existance of Scottish Labour, not understanding that any Scottish independence would probably bring a permanent Conservative majority in England and Wales.
To think I was worried that they might do something competent.
All this “it’s worth the pain of a Tory Brexit and all that entails to get a Labour government” is the best recipe to turn away potential voters. For decades, not just one election cycle. If that is what all this “wait and see” multiple messages and absent “leader” is all about, Labour won’t be forgiven for shafting all the people it should’ve been representing.
What's crazy is that the Tories & their Brexit are costing the country billions, they are actively pursuing a policy to make the country poorer ever more divided & break up the union.
Somehow Labour manage to be helping them do it, - McDonnell's comments terrible for Scottish labour & boon to the SNP,
refusing to countenance a unity government a gift to the lib Dems, but real beneficiaries being the hard brexiteers...
The Tories seem intent on irrevocably damaging the UK but labour will only try & stop them on their own narrow terms.
Seems ‘Disaster Socialism’ is a real thing that’s presently being played with.
Great!
The Corbynites who think that the very real human misery that this madness will deliver is ‘a price worth paying’ to deliver their agenda...
You’re actually worse than the *ing Tories!
At least we fully expect that unfeeling, cold-hearted, inhuman, ideologically driven shite from them. That’s what the do. It’s all we expect from them.
What’s your excuse?
Yeah... you’ll be alright. The Islington cabal certainly will be
You’re exactly the same as them, just a different coloured rosette
*s!
To think what started as a tory gamble to win the last election has now become a suicidal disaster labour are happy to allow to happen for their precious 4yrs in power.
Utter ideological madness.
Of course disaster socialism is a thing Binners, they are definitely the types who will have read Che’s thoughts on revolution etc - CFHs video ends any kind of uncertainty about them being that brand of socialism.
The Corbyn defenders have constantly denied that is the plan, but now seem happy to admit it is - what they don’t understand is that it isn’t a route to power for labour - it will backfire and lead to a 1000 year Tory Reich. The one thing the British really hate are communists, and if it looks, sounds and acts like a communist - talking about imprisoning conservatives for social crimes etc - they will get destroyed.
Right now, that tickles me to death.
One of Jezza's bezzies. A bona fide champagne commie. All chummy with Mine, another privately educated commie ****.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Murray_(trade_unionist)
See also cuddly Uncle John, a self confessed Marxist keen on kneecapping, lynching and instigating financial meltdown to achieve political purity.
With friends like this, he hardly needs to hang around with any blood labelling homophobic anti-semites. And yet, he does. What an unlucky anti racist Saint Jeremy is.
They're not exactly a bright bunch, are they? Or very observant.
The major flaw in the masterplan that I can see here is just everything that's happened over the last 12 years.
Weren't the populations of the west supposed to react to the banking crisis by rejecting the neoliberal capitalist model and embracing socialism?
That went well, didn't it?
The opposite happened. Instead of rejecting neoliberalism, the electorates delivered Trump, Boris Johnson and the rise of far-right populism in Europe.
If labour thinks the aftermath of the impending catastrophe will be any different, they're utterly delusional. The right is already sowing the seeds of the narrative. It'll all be the fault of filthy immigrants and the Johnny Foreigner in the EU
So the dreamed-of socialist utopia will probably end up looking more like Kristallnacht than.... erm... errrrr... I'm trying to think of a successful socialist state, but there isn't one.
They're about to sell us all down the river for a leftie pipe dream
I know how keen you all are to quote labour policy on their website, can someone post a link to the policy for supporting a no deal brexit on the grounds that it is a ‘price worth paying’? Or perhaps even some direct quotes from senior labour MPs?
Maybe I’m wrong, but you all seem to be getting very excited about something that’s in your imaginations.
Well it's either that or it's just complete and utter incompetence
Those are the only two viable options
It's academic, really. The end result is the same
Well it’s either that or it’s just complete and utter incompetence
Accepting that conspiracy and incompetence aren't mutually exclusive, in human affairs it's usually the latter. And when we're dealing with a drop-out from North London Poly I think I'm going with incompetence.
Disaster Socialism? In the UK?
Almost like Degsy and his budget busting chums sending redundancy notices out by taxi to kick off a Trot revolution and thereby bring in a workers paradise....
I saw this on twitter Binners and thought of you.
3. Labour Party Accounts:
Income From Membership Fees:
2008: £3,930,000
2009: £4,497,000
2010: £4,927,000
2011: £5,205,000
2012: £5,508,000
2013: £5,684,000
2014: £5,971,000
Jeremy Corbyn Elected Leader
2015: £9,532,000
2016: £14,393,000
2017: £16,165,000
2018: £16,930,000
1. 2018 Political Party Accounts:
Balance Sheet Surplus/(Deficit):
Labour: +£12,618,000
P Cymru: +£900,525
SNP: +£591,077
UKIP: +£233,635
Greens: (-£200,797)
LibDems: (-£1,079,502)
Tories: (-£5,305,000)
Source: electoral commission.
Also worth a listen:
The new PM and the future of Conservatism
Summary: the center will become more marginalised as the media (who constantly talk up middle-ground values and aren't taking notice of the political shift) become out of step with voters. The right might hang on a short while but are certainly ailing with lack of new ideas. The left have got a battle on their hands but could be the dawn of a new economic model.
Either way we are in a radical period of change where the centrist parties no longer reflect voting habits and become out of touch despite trying desperately to revert to things pre 2016. Basically as most of the Guardian journalists report life like it ought to be.
Maybe I’m wrong, but you all seem to be getting very excited about something that’s in your imaginations.
Yup they are - its a circle jerk of corbyn hating with very little basis in truth. Which is why I stay away from this thread mainly - if it wasn't so sad seeing "labour" supporters convincing themselves they have to vote tory lite and thus have a tory government because of a load of sheer bullshine they believe about Corbyn without a shred of evidence. Even some labour mps do this.
Did you miss the bit where the ‘centrist’ Lib Dem’s won the last by-election, with labour nearly losing their deposit, finished 6% above the Labour Party at the E.U. elections and took seats off them at the local elections?
If a week is a long time in politics, quoting the tractor production figures for the last few years doesn’t count for anything.
All that matters is how many people vote for you.
Good effort by the Labour Party yesterday to try and drive away their last 8 Scottish voters
You’re right on one thing though. We are witnessing the dawn of a new economic model.
And it ain’t socialism, that’s for sure!
It’s a post-Brexit nightmare dystopian vision of turbocharged neoliberalism with the U.K. as a deregulated tax haven and sweatshop
A far right wet dream
Maybe the Labour Party could get off their arses and actually oppose it instead of continuing to facilitate it?
I’ll not hold my breath, eh?
Can we make this thread more positive please?
How about people posting links to strong contributions made by Corbyn since the new government was installed? Something I can share with others concerned about the shift even further right, and towards an even harder Brexit, of our government. Videos, articles, interviews… the best bits please. Things that will really convince people that the alternative to this government is ready to stand up for them?
Posted 1 day ago
It’s almost as if there’s nothing to say....
Did you miss the bit where the ‘centrist’ Lib Dem’s won the last by-election, with labour nearly losing their deposit...
Did you miss the fact that it's a constituency that has historically voted right or centre right?
I posted about it in the Boris thread, another one that you seem to be talking a lot of crap in. I'll copy my post to here for you, as I'm a nice bloke.
The constituency hasn’t been held by Labour since 1979 ( 4 decades ago!) and in the 101 years that the current constituency has existed Labour have only held it for 42 years, with the Liberals/Lib Dems and Conservatives holding it for the majority of the other 59 years.
It is an extremely rural constituency, traditionally the kind that votes Conservative or Lib Dem.
Prior to the amalgamation of the constituent areas (Radnorshire and Breconshire) the individuals constituencies had only ever been held by Parliamentarians/Whigs/Liberals or Tories/Conservatives.
It was actually an achievement for Labour to hold the constituency as long as they did, one that went against historical precedent.
You managed to get 1500 people to vote for you?
Go back to your constituency and prepare for government
Got any answers to Kelvins question, comrade....?
Or getting 14% of the vote at the EU elections?
Losing seats to the Lib Dem’s and making zero impact on the Tories at the local elections?
No... didn’t think so
Go back to your constituency and prepare for placard waving and starting online petitions about the injustice of it all..
Where we’re happiest
Labour: +£12,618,000
And yet, staff threatening to strike over pay.
Well, not all staff, obviously. Some are more equal than others, comrades.
Yes.. some bone idle bastards have been picking up their MPs salary of what? ... 75,000 quid a year, for 30 odd years of contributing the square root of **** all
And spent the last 4 years picking up his ‘leader of HM opposition’ salary of double that (I know... my aching sides)
Hard life
Man of the people though, comrade
Yes.. some bone idle bastards have been picking up their MPs salary of what? … 75,000 quid a year, for 30 odd years for contributing the square root of **** allAnd spent the last 4 years picking up his ‘leader of HM opposition’ salary of double that (I know… my aching sides)
Hard life
Man of the people, though, comrade
He’s obviously very frugal though. How else would he be worth £3 million?
Well... some are more equal than others, comrade
And Iranian State TV and Russia Today must both pay well for rent-a-gob appearances
(Alcohol free) champagne communism?
It’s a post-Brexit nightmare dystopian vision of turbocharged neoliberalism with the U.K. as a deregulated tax haven and sweatshop
but the EU is neolibralism central, recently headed by chief tax haven expert - Junckers.
Corbyn doesn't like free movement as he thinks it stokes the sweatshop side and the gap between workers incomes and the rich, and the reduction in availability of cheap workers since brexit pushing up wages has shown that he is right.
Plus we have Uber and Sport Direct and Amazon all pushing sweatshop conditions, since before Brexit. In Corbyns Brexit vision he will be free to hammer down on these practises.
But it's not a right-wing plan, it is the modus-operandi of the EU - constant supply of a cheap workforce and powerful corporates and market competition - look at TTIP which the EU came up with under great secrecy and with no reference to what was good for ordinary people, which was luckily only stopped by some of the members states of the EU - but when the EU is more of a Federation (no point denying that there's been too many statements from Macron, etc, hinting at it) then who knows what they will be able to bring in.
To argue that the EU is democratic is to argue against corbyn's views that he has only recently tried to mask for the reason of trying to get into power.
You know that the ‘shackles of the EU’ corporate conspiracy bollocks will look like a holiday camp compared to what the far right Brexiteers have got lined up when we crash out in October
And lest we forget, they’re in power, setting an increasingly hardline agenda, and are faced with no opposition other than the Lib Dem’s, Greens and the SNP
It’s like watching your house burn down and commenting that the gardener really could have made more of an effort with the bedding plants
Oh... and TTIP was US lead and was rejected by the E.U. through its majority voting and is now history.
How do you reckon the U.K. is going to fare against those US demands when it comes to desperately negotiating a trade deal outside the E.U?
Summary: hello chlorine washed chicken, bye bye NHS
But you Lexiteers, just like the ERG Breixiteers will have thought this all through, right?
Two cheeks of the same arse.
Dominic Cummings can’t believe his luck with the useful idiots he’s got aiding his cause
The left are going to deliver a far right fantasy, gift-wrapped for them
but the EU is neolibralism central, recently headed by chief tax haven expert – Junckers
Making the European distribution of wealth more equitable by allowing the citizens of poorer countries work in richer ones is neoliberalism?
Lol.
Btw, it’s only post ww2 where people actually cared about borders. Pre ww1 and the interwar period was marked by heavy undocumented immigration, my Jewish relatives got here busking. No one gave a shit and one of them even wedded an aristocratic lady.
Even some labour mps do this.
I had a good laugh today at the story that this supposed centrist 'rebellion' wanting to install Yvette Cooper or Dominic Grieve as a unity PM to stop a no deal brexit. So basically they're saying that they would prefer a no deal brexit to Corbyn. I think that tells us all we need to know about the priorities of the centrist cabal (to use a popular word), squirreled away in their private gentlemen's club, plotting the last stand of the establishment to keep everything the same. 🙂
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binners
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Did you miss the bit where the ‘centrist’ Lib Dem’s won the last by-election....
Did you miss all the other by-elections?
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Can we make this thread more positive please?
Any links to contributions by Corbyn since the new government took power? Any? Or just more ranting posts about centrists and anyone (that is most people) who now don’t want to see Corbyn as PM (including people like me who voted for him only to see him be utterly useless, or worse, for more than two years, in the face of the country jerking to the right and embracing a harder and harder Brexit).
Videos, interviews, articles… anything?
Or just more ranting posts about centrists
Bravo. I wish I had a relevant monty python pic to hand right now 😀
Oh good, a rhetorical letter sent from the bunker. Smashing.
Lol at ttip being used as an example of the evil empire. Yeah, it was negotiated and agreed behind closed doors, then it went to the vote, and got defeated. Despite Cameron et. al. being very much in favour. Evil EU!