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accept its findings without whatabouterisms about AS being prominent elsewhere, or complaining about being the victim
Can you point to where he actually did either of those things?
I give up. Have a nice denialism day.
I'm not denying I'm asking you to provide the quotes that prove what you're saying. It should be pretty easy no?
Grum
Corbyn's statement about AS was clear in that he hates the very thought of it. He could have concluded his statement with "It happened when I was Leader and therefore I am very sorry". Instead he chose to mention exaggeration. Wrong time, wrong place.
You shouldn't actually need reminding of this, but it's worth remembering that the victims here are the people at the receiving end of the vile abuse, some of whom were hounded out of the party.
The victim here IS NOT Jeremy Corbyn
Despite him obviously thinking that he is
Despite him obviously thinking that he is
He's had his previously impeccable reputation as an opponent of racism destroyed and is now commonly regarded as an anti-semite when that is demonstrably not the case, as you yourself admitted a few posts ago. I'd say he has grounds for complaint.
In addition the left in general are now seen as anti-semites. This also isn't true but it's become de facto truth, and anyone who attempts to defend themselves against such accusations is branded as an anti-semite. I myself have felt many times that people are insinuating that I'm an anti-semite for daring to take a different view. So you'll forgive us if we're just a little bit pissed off.
You shouldn’t actually need reminding of this
I don't, thanks.
So you’ll forgive us if we’re just a little bit pissed off.
It's not about you.
There is a straight forward way to accept this report, and act on it, without the "we're the real victims" response. Not the time and place.
He’s had his previously impeccable reputation as an opponent of racism destroyed and is now commonly regarded as an anti-semite when that is demonstrably not the case, as you yourself admitted a few posts ago. I’d say he has grounds for complaint.
In addition the left in general are now seen as anti-semites. This also isn’t true but it’s become de facto truth, and anyone who attempts to defend themselves against such accusations is branded as an anti-semite. I myself have felt many times that people are insinuating that I’m an anti-semite for daring to take a different view. So you’ll forgive us if we’re just a little bit pissed off.
Sure.
But what good is it doing anybody other than De Pfeffel and his mates to keep banging on about it? And that includes Corbyn himself. Every utterance from now on keeps the story high up on the news agenda and gives De Pfeffel et al more relief from scrutiny.
Diane Abbott, the former shadow home secretary, replied to Ms Butler on Twitter, saying: “A couple of years ago my staff stopped me opening my own mail in order to hide from me most of the racist and abusive stuff. But I know they have been reduced to tears by some of the stuff they have seen.”
Ms Dhrodia, whose 2018 report discovered black women were 84 per cent more likely than white women to be mentioned in abusive tweets, said black women faced a “particular denigration of online abuse” that simultaneously targets both their gender and their race which is commonly referred to as misogynoir.
Kate Allen, director of Amnesty International UK, condemned reports of “huge levels of online abuse” against black women MPs for expressing support for Black Lives Matter protests.
She said: “Reports of horrifying levels of online abuse against black women MPs are deeply concerning. Our research has revealed the shocking levels of abusive tweets hurled against women of colour in politics and public life, especially black women. The content of this abuse can be extremely disturbing – including death and rape threats – and have a chilling effect on people’s willingness to speak out.
Where were all these anti-racist campaigners when this was going on, or is it only anti-semitism that matters? What political parties do we think the people who dole out this abuse constantly support?
No one has claimed there isn't a problem with AS in the Labour Party, including Corbyn - but it has been portrayed in a ludicrously disproportionate manner. Both things can be true.
“we’re the real victims” response.
No one has said that.
Not the time and place.
When is the time and the place? Once you've utterly ceded control of the narrative to right wing tabloid newspapers?
is it only anti-semitism that matters?
Whatabout...
Most of us have condemned repeatedly the abuse that Abbot receives.
We know racism is worse amongst the supporters of other parties. But, when responding to a report specifically about AS in Labour... accepting the findings and apologising should not include such whataboutisms... not the time and place.
Some of you have taken part in it.
Whataboutery is sometimes fatuous but sometimes it's just making a valid comparison or pointing out double standards - this is one of those times.
What you are doing is accepting and legitimising the fact that when unacceptable abuse can be used to denigrate the Labour Party, then it's fair game for exploitation.
Nobody is defending racism, directed towards Dianne Abbott, or anybody else
What we're saying is that when an independent enquiry concludes that under your 'leadership' (or lack of...) an atmosphere where racism was tolerated has developed and then not been adequately dealt with, a degree of contrition might be in order, and here's a crazy idea... an apology.
A proper apology, like you actually mean it. Not a sulking toddler saying 'sorry, not sorry'
Instead, telling everybody to stop being horrid to you isn't really the way to go
Though hardly unexpected
There are double standards. But an apology that moans about problems elsewhere is a dud apology. And as for complaining about the public thinking AS is far worse than it is in Labour... well a proper unqualified apology from Corbyn as regards the findings of the report would help to start to dispel that perception.
It's funny binners, I don't remember anti-semitism being a big issue for you until it became a useful stick to beat JC with. Remind me of your decades long history of fighting against racism?
But what good is it doing anybody other than De Pfeffel and his mates to keep banging on about it?
You seriously think they're going to shut up about it? AS will stalk Starmers leadership every bit as much as Corbyn's. They're already going after Angela Rayner and others in the party despite the apologies they and Starmer have made. They won't stop until the Starmer leadership goes the same way as the Corbyn one. The witchunt will continue, the slander will continue, and the failure of the labour party to defend itself will continue. This isn't going to stop because Starmer throws himself at the mercy of people who want to see him and the labour party destroyed.
It’s funny binners, I don’t remember anti-semitism being a big issue for you until it became a useful stick to beat JC with. Remind me of your decades long history of fighting against racism?
Does everyone have to publish a full list of their left-wing credentials before being allowed to criticise St Jeremy, or is it just me?
Because that, in itself, is actually potentially Binnersist 😛
So what should Starmer do? Say he doesn't accept the EHRC report findings? It's not up to him (or Corbyn or anyone else for that matter) to decide whether to accept them or not - the findings are what they are within the statutory remit of the EHRC. It's his job to act on them which he's doing. The rest is whataboutery and grum bling...
er, editing away attempted levity...
He’s had his previously impeccable reputation as an opponent of racism
sorry, his what? Corbyn has at the very least a personal blind spot when it comes to AS and at worst could reasonably use some advice. (some examples: celebrating murals depicting Jewish characters, standing on platform with people who think the blood libel is real, authoring glowing forwards to books written by avowedly anti Semitic authors)
so his credentials here are not “impeccable” by any standard
Mainly you because I don’t think you really give a toss about AS, apart from how it helps you to denigrate someone who, despite his flaws, has helped more people than you ever will.
That's a bold statement. You're actually saying there that I don't care about antisemitism?
Just to reiterate... That's what you're actually saying there.
I know you don't like me, and never miss an opportunity to have a dig, and frankly I couldn't give a monkeys what you think of me. But I really think that's a step too far and is glaringly offensive. As well as being untrue.
I'll give you a minute or two to edit that and apologise before I do something I've never done before and report a post on here
That’s a bold statement. You’re actually saying there that I don’t care about antisemitism?
I think you care far more about having a useful stick to beat JC with. That much is obvious.
Again... have a read back of what you're accusing me of here, and have a think about how that comes across, while you've still time to edit it and apoligise.
Theres no way I'm sitting back and have you throw accusations like that at me
Report away
Done
Theres no way I’m sitting back and have you throw accusations like that at me
Welcome to the club of being accused of things you're not. Not nice is it? That's the nature of witchunts, the more you protest your innocence, the more guilty you are. I think its about time everyone wound their necks in.
Indeed.
Stop making this about Binners, or yourself... it's not... it's about a report into AS in Labour that should have been accepted by all involved, and resulted in unqualified apologies from all with a senior role in Labour during the time the events unfolded. Others managed it. Corbyn thought that he couldn't, or shouldn't... whatever... his choice.
All I will say, is that posting lots on here is a sure sign of my deteriorating mental health. This is the only social media I still bother with, probably time to give this up too. I thought leaving FB would prevent getting into stupid arguments.
Indeed... let's stop this being personal.. it shouldn't be. None of us are the guy this thread is about. Comments on his actions should not be taken by anyone as a personal attack on anyone posting here. Those defending his actions should not be attacked personally for doing so.
Anyway, someone was asking last night what utopia looks like. Anyone interested in alternative solutions to the current deadend one way ticket to destruction should read the following..
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/murray-bookchin-post-scarcity-anarchism-1
or as a pdf..
It's a much more interesting subject than anti-semitism 😉
<mod>
I'll post a public reply to Binners' complaint as he's chosen to make the complaint public.
I've not read the whole thread and it looks like this argument has been simmering for several pages now at least. I do not believe that it's within our remit - or indeed, fair - to be picking sides in an ongoing spat. There's also an argument of "live by the sword," if you're going to choose to participate in heated debates about difficult subjects then you need to accept that others are going to argue back.
That said, personal abuse is in breach of the forum T&Cs. Is that what's happened here? Potentially, yes.
But the discussion has moved on since then, including discussing the accusation, making clean-up awkward and messy. Would making the last page disappear achieve anything?
So I'll just say this, as others have already suggested. Please play nicely people, this squabbling just creates more work and grief for us. If this carries on we won't be playing "he said she said" and trying to unpick it, we'll just give you both a holiday.
</mod>
Anyway, I thought you two were mates?
binners and I have kissed and made up via PM, and we are now lovers. Apologies for the sidetrack everyone.
Indeed. All sorted
We’ve just disappointed that with lockdown we couldn’t go out somewhere nice for dinner
Just a few beers would be nice.
I'm beginning to think this thread should be closed. It's a bit of an irrelevance now? Just like it's subject, it should be allowed a graceful retirement on the allotment.
Wise words.
Just like it’s subject, it should be allowed a graceful retirement on the allotment.
Some pictures of Jeremy at the allotment earlier, having reduced Labour's MPs to a sustainable number. 🙂
Stolen from elsewhere
I see we've arrived at the bi-annual festival of claiming a Labour party led by anybody who isn't Jeremy is indistinguishable from the Tories.
So, a quick summary of what moderate Labour party did. You can just skip forward to Iraq if you like, but the facts still remain...
https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1323298560226566145?s=2
Jonnyboi,
You should have copied and pasted that whole link. Well worth a look for any contributors to this thread.
Pah, that's not a revolution so I am out.
I should like to recommend that in the future politicians should be forced to invest in computers, printers and telephonic recording devices. How these clever trolls make all these awful threats and slurs without leaving evidence is a scientific wonder of the modern world.
Given his lack of ability to spell I'd like to see some fact checking on those claims.
But yes, New Labour definitely did some good and are massively preferable to what we have now. I don't see anyone claiming otherwise so it's yet another straw man.
I'd argue massively increasing the use of PFI was a disaster that he conveniently doesn't mention also.
But yes, New Labour definitely did some good and are massively preferable to what we have now. I don’t see anyone claiming otherwise
I do (dazh) If Starmer did similar things to Blair that would be no good and not worth voting for (i.e. keeping Tories in power instead of having Starmer because he is not a revolutionary)
Just gonna leave this here
Just gonna leave this here
Just gonna leave this here
Let me guess, that'd be Jerremy, Len and Seamus under that blanket.
The ginger ones are definitely Marxists!
Chairman Meow?
Grum wins.
So, a quick summary of what moderate Labour party did. You can just skip forward to Iraq if you like, but the facts still remain…
Excellent. Perhaps we could do a balance sheet to calculate how many dead brown people we should tolerate in return for Sure Start.
Perhaps we could do a balance sheet to calculate how many dead brown people we should tolerate in return for Sure Start.
Starmer is not Blair. Quite easy to picture him improving domestic policy, as Blair & Brown in some ways did, without going on some big USA attached international oil and family revenge war.
I never voted for Blair (or Brown, or Miliband) but I did vote for Corbyn, and I will vote for Starmer. He is not Blair2.
Starmer is not Blair. Quite easy to picture him improving domestic policy, as Blair & Brown in some ways did, without going on some big USA attached international oil and family revenge war.
I was responding to a post about new Labour: I made no comment about Starmer.
I’m just trying to encourage people to stop wallowing in the past, and engage with today. I agree with Dazh… time to let this thread gracefully retire.
I do (dazh)
Yawn. The truth is I've never forgiven new labour for forcing me to get a job in the late 90s. I was rather content on the dole, being an environmental activist and going to illegal raves every weekend. Seriously though, the world has changed a bit since then. We're 20 years down the line with climate change and we don't have the luxury of time that we had when Blair was around. Its also fairly easy to argue that Blair's regrettable lack of ambition set the standard for those who followed him, resulting in the sorry mess we're in now. If only our problems today were limited to finding a way to allow the IRA to surrender and creating a minimum wage. I mean they were important and welcome, but not even on the scale of what we have to deal with now.
Another one copy and pasted from Mark Francois' Twitter. Lol at binbins
Oh the replies… I’d tried to forget about all the “Russia didn’t do this, it’s all a conspiracy” stuff about the Salisbury poisonings. Dark days.
Guess she's one of the conspiracy nuts too eh
https://twitter.com/JamesEFoster/status/1325407957740351490?s=20
ctk
Another one copy and pasted from Mark Francois’ Twitter. Lol at binbins
Do try to keep up dear. Penfold disappeared from all forms social media and hasn’t been sighted for months.
If you Corbynites popped your heads out of your Twitter echo chamber occasionally, maybe drew the curtains in the room at your mums house, you’d be aware of that
99.999999999999999% of the time it isn’t a conspiracy. It just is what it is.
With Corbyn, that is most definitely the case.
Ian Duncan Smith didn't go very far in education (failed the 11+ and tried to pass off a languages course as a degree) and spent his life harrumphing and spewing bile at socialists, 'experts' as well as, ironically, the 'thick'. He has been rewarded by marrying money, lives in a stately pile, has a well-paid job and a pension to die for. He does seem at least to be bright enough to have joined the right party.
and spent his life harrumphing and spewing bile at socialists
I think he posts on this thread.
If you Corbynites popped your heads out of your Twitter echo chamber occasionally, maybe drew the curtains in the room at your mums house, you’d be aware of that
I love the new cuddly, non-antagonistic version of binners. And yeah I do live at my mum's house, since CV/lockdown completely killed my industry and all my work, and I do struggle to get out of bed some days due to depression, so thanks for that.
@CFH - he does make a reasonable point, and I think the Labour Party should listen more to Jewish people and address their concerns, but I don't see that as meaning you're not also allowed to be concerned at the way Labour is now unfairly tarnished as a racist party, and the Tories get away with their racism scot free.
As ever, Adam Hills nails it for me.
I'd vote for whatever party he was standing for I think. Can we have an Australian born PM?
Can we have an Australian born PM?
We have an American born one.
Ahh Adam Hills, Guardian columnist in waiting.
The EHRC report calls out the fact that, after the issue was first raised, Corbyn put in place a more robust complaints-handling process and "interfered" with a number of cases to accelerate the process of suspending members. Which sounds a lot like "listening to your Jewish members" to me. But as always, he's Schrodinger's Corbyn - simultaneously not doing enough to tackle antisemitism while at the same time doing TOO MUCH and interfering accelerating the process where necessary.
Someone's going to need to explain to me all over again what is wrong with JC's clarification of his response to the EHRC report.
His latest clarification? Looks spot on to me. Very welcome. It's completely stripped of all the stuff that was problematic in his "to media" responses on the day the report was published. Nothing to knock in it at all...
From his Facebook page...
Last month, I was suspended from the Labour Party, after 54 years’ membership and four and a half years as party leader.
On the day I was suspended I gave a broadcast interview to clarify what I had said in response to the EHRC report, and I also made a statement to the party to clear up any confusion about what I had meant, as follows:
“The publication of the EHRC report should have been a moment for the Labour Party to come together in a determination to address the shortcomings of the past and work as one to root out antisemitism in our own ranks and wider society. We must never tolerate antisemitism or belittle concerns about it. And that was not my intention in anything I said this week. I regret the pain this issue has caused the Jewish community and would wish to do nothing that would exacerbate or prolong it. To be clear, concerns about antisemitism are neither "exaggerated" nor "overstated". The point I wished to make was that the vast majority of Labour Party members were and remain committed anti-racists deeply opposed to antisemitism. I fully support Keir Starmer’s decision to accept all the EHRC recommendations in full and, in accordance with my own lifelong convictions, will do what I can to help the Party move on, united against antisemitism which has been responsible for so many of history’s greatest crimes against humanity.”
I’m grateful to the many thousands of Labour party members, trade unionists, and supporters in Britain and around the world, who have offered their solidarity.
I hope this matter is resolved as quickly as possible, so that the party can work together to root out antisemitism and unite to oppose and defeat this deeply damaging Conservative government.
Focussing on the right things, post suspension. I'm happy to praise him for that... if only that had been his response on the day the report was published (when all the media were focussed on Labour and this issue)... that would have been very helpful to all. Timing.
Someone’s going to need to explain to me all over again what is wrong with JC’s clarification of his response to the EHRC report.
It doesn't matter. Nobody cares. Outside the furious, militant, self-absorbed PFJ Twitter groups, obviously
His contribution to the news cycle today, if anyone bothered to report it at all, has been relegated to the 'and in other news...' bit at the end, that's a story about a cat on a skateboard, or a granny who had a bath in some baked beans for children in need.
His natural territory. Where he's always belonged...
Bye bye Jezza..
Does he accept all the findings of the report..............
Because he doesn't say that
From the report:
Some of the claims are pretty contentious
Use of antisemitic tropes. This means using written or verbal phrases or images that suggest antisemitic ideas or stereotypes. Examples that we found included referring to the idea that Jews are part of a wider conspiracy, or are responsible for controlling others and manipulating the political process, including the Labour Party. For example, referring to Jewish people being a ‘fifth column’.
Example
Local Rossendale Borough councillor, Pam Bromley, posted on Facebook: ‘Had Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party pulled up the drawbridge and nipped the bogus AS [antisemitism] accusations in the bud in the first place we would not be where we are now and the fifth column in the LP [Labour Party] would not have managed to get such a foothold ... the Lobby has miscalculated ... The witch hunt has created brand new fightback networks ... The Lobby will then melt back into its own cesspit.’
Where in this statement does it even imply that the fifth column is referring to Jewish people? I wouldn't take it to mean that. If this is an example of anti-semitism I think they are scraping the barrel.
Does he accept all the findings of the report…………..
Because he doesn’t say that
Good spot. Very smart wording...
"I fully support Keir Starmer’s decision to accept all the EHRC recommendations in full and, in accordance with my own lifelong convictions, will do what I can to help the Party move on, united against antisemitism which has been responsible for so many of history’s greatest crimes against humanity."
...it's enough for me at this stage though... let him move on.
It sounds like the procedures were a mess but does nobody else find it a bit surprising to discover that Corbyn decided personally to suspend Ken Livingstone? The narrative in the press was quite the opposite - it was routinely strongly implied that JC was interfering to try and stop people being suspended for AS.
Even if you don't like JC being ok with him being wilfully misrepresented is rather strange.
In July 2016, the Labour Party wrote to Ken Livingstone, confirming that administrative suspension had been imposed in relation to an antisemitism complaint ‘after conversations between the Leader of the Labour Party and his staff’. This clearly shows the involvement of the Leader, then Jeremy Corbyn, and LOTO staff in the decision to suspend Ken Livingstone.
Poor Jeremy.
Everyones out to get him because he represents such a threat to the establishment with his honesty and decency
#myprimeminister
binners, grown ups are talking - pipe down.
That statement sounds like somebody finally broke through the wall of cult members that surround him with their tidal-waves of fawning sycophancy and said...
"do you know what Jeremy?... you know your reaction you gave to the publishing of the antisemitism report? Yeah... well to be honest with you, mate, it made you sound like a right ****!"
And him coming out with 'a correction' today is a bit like when the Daily Mail publishes a 2 sentence apology on page 32, 3 months after splashing a glaring lie right across their front page, because a court judgement said they had too.
I think he made the 'correction' at the time of his suspension... this is just a cut and paste from that. Agree about timing though... the day of the report being published was a golden opportunity wasted. Hopefully now he gets to move on (but stay in Labour)... but the damage was done on the day.