Jeremy Corbyn

Indeed compromise starts immediately proving that there is no such thing as a conviction politician. The radio interview with McClusky (I think) this morning on the way to the ride was funny. So who compromises in Trident and how that is presented will be fun to watch - the media team will earn their pennies there.

Being in oppo is the easy bit. Taking tough decisions is the hard bit as poor Cleggie found out.

(Sorry to hear about the injury ATP. I always imagine anyone on a bike in the Hankely area is you!!)

athgray - Member

I know he is. So was Charles Kennedy. Still did not stop Alex Salmond and the SNP attempting to coax his good name to their cause when he was unable to respond.

If you're alluding to Salmond's observation that Charlie's heart wasn't in the No campaign, that's a matter of record- Charlie hated the Project Fear approach and was openly critical of it throughout- he believed it was tactically wrong and driving people into the Yes camp, and personally he was peeved that the negative campaign meant he didn't get to have the debate he was made for. He didn't need to be around to respond; he'd already said it publically.

But Salmond never claimed Kennedy for his cause, or suggested that he wasn't 100% in favour of preserving the union, that's just a bare faced lie. There's a world of difference between not being happy with Better Together, and being on the other side.

@ernie I recall the tax rates where 25 and 15 but perhaps I'm wrong

You are wrong. When Thatcher became PM there was a 25% luxury rate on yachts, obviously she didn't like the idea of hard-up rich people pay too much tax on their yachts so she slashed VAT on yachts to 15%.

To help pay for this tax relief for rich people she almost double VAT for everyone else by increasing the basic rate from 8% to 15%.

Previously UK consumers had enjoyed a basic VAT rate of just 8% partly because there was a 25% rate on luxury goods including yachts. Until Thatcher, champion of regressive taxes, came along.

Ironically it was her most regressive tax of all, the Poll Tax, which eventually destroyed her political career.

Sweet irony.

I don't mean Salmond was saying Charles Kennedy was supportive of indy, however IMO he used his flawed but generally amenable character for political advantage.

Then there was his absurd quote that Charles Kennedy would have reconciled himself in an independent Scotland. Of course he would have. We all will.

The SNP will do the same with Jeremy Corbyn. "It was us that led to this political change in direction. You have us to thank!"

athgray - Member

I don't mean Salmond was saying Charles Kennedy was supportive of indy,

When you said "did not stop Alex Salmond and the SNP attempting to coax his good name to their cause"? What on earth did you mean then?

athgray - Member

Then there was his absurd quote that Charles Kennedy would have reconciled himself in an independent Scotland. Of course he would have.

Yep, sounds absurd to me... Absurdly saying things that you agree with, how dare he? 😆 What was absurd, and sad, was watching the frenzy of people trying to make political capital from it all. Especially the point at which people stopped quoting Salmond, because it made it easier to pretend he'd said something he hadn't.

No need to be obtuse Northwind. Statements can be absurd for a variety of reasons. Salmonds was absurd because it a was it was a statement of the blatantly obvious, in an attempt portray him as one of Salmonds good guys.

On Corbyn, there will be people in Scotland who will never vote for him despite him apparently saying a lot of what they wish for. Inspite of what they say indy is the endgame.

No response to the first point then? Interesting, that.

You are wrong. When Thatcher became PM there was a 25% luxury rate on yachts

No there wasn't, in 1979 it was 12.5% on boats (all boats including canoes) - higher rate tax was introduced at 25% in 1974 on petrol, but expanded in '75 to a variety of luxury items like televisions, radios, cameras and sporting goods (but not golf clubs funnily enough) then dropped to 12.5% in '77

So, in fact Thatcher [i]increased[/i] VAT on yachts!

Interstingly enough, even though I wouldn't descibe myself as 'left wing' (just about left of centre probably) I actually found myself disagreeing with only 4 of the things Jeremy believes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34209478
with reservations about another 4. I wonder how much the Jeremy Corbyn political persona puts people off him. Sadly I think it means that unless something pretty radical happens in the world, he is going to gift the next election to the Tories.

Jambas - you are not alone in your ignorance (sic). This is what old Heath had to say

"Do you know what Margaret Thatcher did in her first Budget? Introduced VAT on yachts! It somewhat ruined my retirement" - 1992.

😀

No response to the first point then? Interesting, that.

BTW, a party that seeks political leverage from a perceived gallusness and argumentative fun loving nature of the electorate is what really saddens me, but it is a line that must work or they wouldn't do it. This lion is getting a bit tired of roaring. See what I did there?

perhaps Corbyn will have success with the UK electorate if he taps into a love of Pimms, pork scratchings and Chas & Dave for election broadcasts, unless UKIP beat him to it.

I wonder how much the Jeremy Corbyn political persona puts people off him. Sadly I think it means that unless something pretty radical happens in the world, he is going to gift the next election to the Tories.

I don't think people are put off him, it is only the right whingers who would never vote for labour anyway who have the knives out, And the unfounded attacks and lies thrown against are actually increasing his support.

If anything, unless the tories actually face up to the real reasons for his popularity and stop the baseless mud throwing and hysterical fear mongering they are going to gift the next election to him.

According to Wiki it was Dennis Healy who set rates at 25 and 8 as I posted @ernie. Anyway it doesn't matter who did it my point was that luxury vat bands are ineffective / don't work. The Elephant in the Room on VAT is food, they have it in Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Spain). It's political dynamite here but they seem to avoided social disaster by imp song it over there, the who,e EU game is integration of fiscal and tax policy so sooner or later we're going to get it assuming we remain in the EU.

@kona you could well be right on the VAT element, not sure about the special car tax. All I know is he imported the car to save money and that's just the sort of behaviour you see when artificial differences in pricing emerge through tax. That's the whole gig for Amazon etc.

I see Tom Watson has reiterated today he is pro Trident.

@MSP we'll have to differ on that last point. I very much doubt Corbyn will survive to the next election. In any case he'll be 67 by then too.

To help pay for this tax relief for rich people she almost double VAT for everyone else by increasing the basic rate from 8% to 15%.

Wow must have been a lot of yacht sales in those days to have such an impact.

ATG - never forget, the ends always justify the means!

In any case he'll be 67 by then too

So what? That is exactly the kind of nonsensical fear based propaganda I am talking about, trying to create a pretend narrative that being 67 years old is a problem. It reveals the right for what they are afraid and dirty, lacking any moral conviction other than the instantly turning to dirty tricks, next you will try and claim he was hungover during an interview.

[quote=jambalaya said]@MSP we'll have to differ on that last point. I very much doubt Corbyn will survive to the next election. In any case he'll be 67 by then too.

He's 66 now, will be 70 come 2020 election.

The media is full of lies and misleading crap. But mentioning someone's age is not a dirty trick, it's perfectly reasonable. (Or would have been if it had been correct.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34209478

ninfan - Member

No there wasn't, in 1979 it was 12.5% on boats

Yep, you're right. I've checked and apparently after lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation and the Royal Yachting Association the Labour Chancellor Denis Healey halved VAT on yachts to 12.5% in 1974.

Which makes jambalaya's claim that the UK's yacht/boat building industry and jobs were destroyed by 2 years of VAT at 25% even more absurd. If it was 12.5% when we had a different rate for luxury goods (which jambalaya claims was a bad thing) how is the industry managing now the rate is 20% ?

And if higher VAT rates cost jobs, as jambalaya claims, how many jobs were lost when Thatcher almost doubled the basic VAT rate from 8% to 15% ? Or Cameron increased it from 17.5% to 20% ?

If VAT wasn't damaging their businesses why would there be "lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation" and why would that lobbying be successful?

If there was another reason, and you know it, why aren't you telling us?

Because everyone always asks for lower taxes on their own business?

@kona you could well be right on the VAT element, not sure about the special car tax. All I know is he imported the car to save money and that's just the sort of behaviour you see when artificial differences in pricing emerge through tax. That's the whole gig for Amazon etc.

I suspect it was more to do with the car companies' behaviour in pricing UK cars well above continental prices which meant a continental dealt could order a LHD car for much less than a UK dealer could. You bought the car in Europe (usually Belgium) tax free for export, and then paid all VAT etc to register it in the UK. You weren't dodging tax, just manufacturers' attempts at market segmentation. Manufacturers then tried to stop continental dealers selling LHD cars, at which point the EU stepped on, stopped the whole affair, and car prices in the UK dropped significantly.

But I'm glad we have agreed that it's sod all to do with UK VAT on luxury goods, which would have been paid whether or not the car was manufactured in th the UK or not. I'm surprised you didn't know that, what with your self-proclaimed expertise in this area...

Chuka's gone . 🙁

If VAT wasn't damaging their businesses why would there be "lobbying from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation" and why would that lobbying be successful?

If there was another reason, and you know it, why aren't you telling us?

If all VAT was scrapped on everything sold at PC World it would dramatically boost their profit. Not really a good enough reason to do it though.

Of course any increase in price affects sales, who the hell is arguing otherwise?

I'm challenging jambalaya's claim that UK yacht building industry was destroyed because for a couple of years in the 1970s there was a 25% VAT rate on new yachts.

Good.

I don't trust him.
I trust Diane Abbott even less, mind.
🙂

“In particular, it is my view that we should support the UK remaining a member of the EU, notwithstanding the outcome of any renegotiation by the Prime Minister, and I cannot envisage any circumstances where I would be campaigning alongside those who would argue for us to leave – Jeremy has made it clear to me he does not wholeheartedly share this view.”

the Jeremy and Nigel "leave" show then!

Chuka's resigned.

Don't you mean, "he wasn't offered a job in the new Shadow Cabinet" ?

Yes I meant not been offered a job.

I have also not been offered a job in the shadow cabinet.

@konabunny Rolls Royce's?

Chucked....

(KB - nice passive aggressive final lines up there. I see what you mean now. Easy just to say sarcasm isn't it?)

This "get behind your leader" stuff shows an admirable SOH that has been sadly lacking recently. He deserves some votes just for that

There's been quite a few people who have refused to accept jobs which they haven't been offered.

The Daily Telegraph's headline claims : [i]Chuka Umunna resigns from Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet after 'mutual agreement'[/i]

Jeremy Corbyn hasn't even formed his shadow cabinet so I have no idea how Chuka Umunna could have resigned from his shadow cabinet.

"Are you suggesting Rolls Royce was a business killed by a higher rate of VAT on luxury goods? Is that right?"

No, offering it as an example of a high value UK product.

Yes, earnie you've made your point, they've been sacked, not resigned, I've already conceded that, it was just a slip of the keyboard. #Inclusive

Actually I was making a point about how the media are reporting alleged "resignations" by washed-up blairites, it wasn't aimed at you personally.

As I said, people are resigning from jobs which they haven't been offered.

Another one who hasn't been sacked - worth reading the full text of the 'resignation' letter - pretty much sums up my concerns about Corbyn's election.
To make a change, you have to be in power - otherwise it's just noise.
http://www.cumbriacrack.com/2015/09/12/jamie-reed-mp-resigns-as-a-shadow-minister/

Didn't Jamie Reed announce his resignation as Jeremy was giving his victory speech? Exactly how does that make Labour more electable? If you want to put the country and your party foremost there are far better ways to move forward.Clearly these self serving careerists prefer to try and make personal political capital with the full knowledge that a hostile media will lap it up and try and make Labour more unelectable.

worth reading the full text of the 'resignation' letter - pretty much sums up my concerns about Corbyn's election.

I did and it was hard to establish what he was criticizing Corbyn for.....his opposition to more nuclear power stations?

It was a bizarre "resignation" letter - why the reference to independence for India? Wasn't that in 1947? How is that relevant to now and why did he want to take credit for it?

I entered politics to transform the constituency in which I was born – the [b]most remotely accessible [/b]English constituency from Westminster.

I'm still trying to work out how the Labour Party can be a threat to national security and totally unelectable at the same time.

The Tories are saying they are a threat to national security, the RW of the Labour Party are saying they are unelectable.

Why didn't he just say "furthest"?

Because it probably isn't as a crow flies.

If they really are a threat to national security, shouldn't the Labour Party be made a proscribed organisation?

It's a bizarre thing for the Tories to say.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Although it was always on the cards I am still seriously stunned to hear that John McDonnell has been made Shadow Chancellor, I can't get my head round that. Just that one appointment proves beyond doubt imo that Corbyn means business. The neoliberal consensus is now completely dead, as is New Labour. This was so completely unlikely, indeed impossible, 3 months ago, that I'm seriously struggling to to come to terms with it.

Thank God Labour lost the general election otherwise Miliband would still be Labour Leader and would now be implementing vaguely watered-down Tory policies.

I had always argued that change could only come to the Labour Party if it experienced electoral defeat, and that voting Labour would change nothing :

ernie_lynch - Member

...maybe you could help change it.

The Labour Party is beyond that, it can't be saved, it's lost.

And even if change was possible so that it once again became what it previously was that certainly wouldn't happen under the conditions of election victories.

The only conceivable way that the grip of the thoroughly undemocratic hard right which now controls the Labour Party could be loosened would be if the party experienced catastrophic election disasters.

Voting Labour in May will change [u]nothing[/u].

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cameron-v-miliband/page/2#post-6802090

But I never expected things to change so quickly and so dramatically.

You were right Ernie voting Labour in May wouldn't have changed a thing. I am not convinced that J C will be successful but at least there's some fight in the dog. Hopefully Corbyns labour and the SNP can co-operate on a lot of issues though it looks unlikely that Corbyn will offer much in the way of further devolution to Scotland.

great appointment having john mcdonnell as chancellor in waiting--the one two at the head of labour mean business--give the localplp their democratic rights back and its all systems go.....as you say ernie , interersting times--a reminder for all those naysayers, things can and do change very quickly--its a myth that things are always the same --they are not -they are fluid--the gas house that is westminster has a lot of catching up to do--in fact it needs a full cull !!

If they really are a threat to national security, shouldn't the Labour Party be made a proscribed organisation?

They aren't the same thing. A political party might campaign on a platform of abolishing the UK armed forces. That would be a threat to national security but a choice for the electorate to make.

Proscribed organisations are terrorist groups.

Ok it's pretty clear those in the movement are pretty happy right now, the real test is whether the electorate are so keen. Corbyn at least should shake things up, maybe make it acceptable again to say what you believe in British politics. I would be surprised if he is still Labour leader at the next election though. There are already too many outside of his team from the parlimentary party and he's not won a lot of friends over the years for his principled stances on policy. I think he's going to find it difficult to keep it together. I think going forward we'll see an invigorated yet split Labour party which is ultimately much more periperal to British politics in line the more extreme views of it's new leadership.

The now consensus is now completely dead

No it isn't. The vast majority of the the voters are still centrists. All that's happened is one of the parties has shunned all those votes and gone back to its roots.

Genuinely admirable but it won't change the consensus amongst the voters.

It might win back Scotland though, and see off nationalism there.

Ouch, chase the financial services sector abroad to make manufacturing a higher percentage of our GDP: "financial transactions tax to fund the rebalancing of our economy towards production and manufacturing."

Labour is just a completely open goal, read this on the IRA:

"‘It’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle.

‘It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table.’"

I'm wondering if this fiasco could save the Lib Dem party.

They aren't the same thing. A political party might campaign on a platform of abolishing the UK armed forces. That would be a threat to national security but a choice for the electorate to make.

I was kidding - it's still a ridiculously overblown thing for Cameron to say, even if he doesn't really believe it.

Either that, or a drone strike on Labour HQ is imminent.

It is ridiculous, nobody believes Trident is essential any more.

However, the Tories probably chosen it as an issue because it's an obvious place to push to cause friction. Best of all if Labour keep Trident, Corbyn has to advocate a course of action he has been arguing against forever and if it doesn't half the ministers do.

No shock with McDonell - the alternative read PPE at Oxford, so far too Establishment. Stick her in Business.

So all male top tier, London-centric, a few tokens - fittingly 1970s. back to the future!!

falconer will feel a bit weird in the first cabinet meeting - who are these people!!!!

It might win back Scotland though, and see off nationalism there

I think it's already being played as a reason for Scotland to choose independence. So don't hold your breath

Agree, piemonster, could go either way.

This is already becoming reminiscent of the Michael Foot days - just without the donkey jacket and the intellect.

This could be really interesting - it must be a generation since a cabinet or shadow cabinet have not had very similar views to each other on the vast majority of policy or at least been able to paper over the cracks. Is the general public ready for a shadow cabinet that aren't able to vote in harmony?

Exciting times for politics.

Has a leader of the opposition ever generated this much media interest ?

Before he ever got close to being elected he was the most talked about MP in the land, he's only had the job a couple of days, there's 4.5 years until the next election and already the government campaign has started against Jeremy 'danger' Corbyn

Either that, or a drone strike on Labour HQ is imminent.

No, the conservatives are against wasteful government spending and a missile would be wasted on a bunch of people already committing seppuku.

Not sure that I agree with this cartoon- although I joined and paid £3 to help get Corbyn elected, they really didn't need any help.

[img] [/img]

Cranberry, your cunning plan will be foiled by the Tory implosion on the EU referendum,followed by the new hyper left wing government, you helped d to shape !

cranberry - Member
No, the conservatives are against wasteful government spending...

No no, that's the old-fashioned Conservative party. Not many of those principled chaps left sadly.

It's nu-Con now, and they're for selling off income producing state assets to their mates and trousering secret commissions, and also ensuring that there's a plentiful supply of the servant class willing to work for less than subsistence wages.

However now that the revolting peasants..., I mean now that the peasants are revolting, and the nu-Com pals in the Labour party are withering away, we'll probably need a little war so we can wave the flag about a bit and bring the masses back in line. Oh, and if Kate can pop out another little parasite, so much the better... 🙂

Whilst I like a lot of his policies many just aren't realistic or workable, personally I think he's going to end up like Neil Kinnock

cunning plan

I love that right wingers feel so smug, self-congratulatory and think themselves "cunning". cranberry's recent demonstrations of not even being able to extract some simple facts from a linked article in his hurried state of tumescence to mud-sling tell me all I need to know about whether to pay attention to any predictions he might make about what might happen in four and a half year's time.

Just another RW troll.

It is ridiculous, [u]nobody[/u] believes Trident is essential any more.

Stop listening to the social media echo chamber and look at the polling

your cunning plan will be foiled by the Tory implosion on the EU referendum

As I've repeatedly said this applies to Labour as well, we've ended up with the politics of the 50's & 60's where the Tory leaders are pro EU and Labour's anti. Tom Watson has already called for Corbyn to support EU and Trident, yet COrbyn doesn't seem to have a firm policy for either at present.

In the meantime Germany closes it's borders to immigrants and Cameron goes visit a UN camp on the Syrian border.

[i]Tom Watson has already called for Corbyn to support EU and Trident, yet COrbyn doesn't seem to have a firm policy for either at present.[/i]

I don't think anyone doesn't know what Corbyn's views on Trident are?

Views and Policies are not the same thing, one man should not be the policy author for any party.

nobody believes Trident is essential any more

I suspect an alternative to Trident would be more conventional forces

The alternative to trident is no trident, then spending the money saved on something useful like education. Trident is just about giving America our money so we can be part of their gang.

COMMUNIST!!!

Views and Policies are not the same thing, one man should not be the policy author for any party.

IIRC, one reason that a lot of people voted for him was his willingness to democratise Labour's policy making process. They expected him to spend a couple of years doing that, then make way for someone new to lead them into the 2020 election.

The alternative to trident is no trident, then spending the money saved on something useful like education.

Stop listening to the social media echo chamber and look at the polling

Poor choice of words, I should have said "i agree with you it is ludicrous to believe trident is militarily essential". My main point holds true.

outofbreath - Member

"The neoliberal consensus is now completely dead"

No it isn't. The vast majority of the the voters are still centrists. All that's happened is one of the parties has shunned all those votes and gone back to its roots.

You are using your own personal definition for the term "political consensus" and ignoring the definition used by most other people :

[i]"Consensus politics suggests a strong and broad agreement between the main political parties"[/i]

The neoliberal consensus is now completely dead, one of the main political parties no longer supports neolibralism.

This new position has been very heavily endorsed by party members. Time to accept reality.

Other people who think Trident renewal is pointless include [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20179604 ]former Tory defence minister Michael Portillo[/url], [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/trident-is-20bn-waste-say-generals ]former head of the armed forces Field Marshal Lord Bramall[/url], and [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/exclusive-75-labour-ppcs-oppose-trident-renewal ]75% of Labours PPCs in the last General Election[/url]. Plus, the [url= https://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/2015/04/09/green-mps-will-push-labour-on-trident-debate,-says-natalie-bennett/ ]Green Party[/url], the [url= http://www.libdems.org.uk/trident ]Lib Dems[/url], and the [url= http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/apr/trident-unusable-and-indefensible ]SNP[/url].

. Time to accept reality.

The reason for all the hilarity is that one of the big parties has publicly regected reality.

mikewsmith - Member
Views and Policies are not the same thing, one man should not be the policy author for any party.

That's just people trying to cause mischief, Corbyn is all about creating a democratic party from what I can read. Under that situation his opinions aren't irrelevant, but they clearly aren't the be and end all.

See how it plays out and what policy this new look labour party actually comes up with. Personally I doubt, as the tory media will have you believe, that it'll be a list Corbyn's opionions on all matters. Democracy is compromise and consenus, kinda obvious I'd have thought.

I reckon we should maybe allow them time to develop and [b]publish [/b]their policy before we criticize it.

Tridents one for 2020, unless there are any votes coming up regarding renewall?
labour-snp etc could cause problems for that

Its the EU referendum thats more relevant, Corbyn hasnt laid out what his position is as far as Im aware

Im not sure if this makes it easier for the tories or more difficult, they handled the Scottish one badly, relying on Brown to pull off a last minute save.