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Nach, he also has quite a lot a baggage that can be dragged up and used against him when he does engage. This alone will make him considered as untrustworthy as BoJo with some parts of the electorate.
No politician is clean (some might argue that even the clean ones can be smeared with fake news), but his past really does him no favours right now.
JC will remain as the Labour Leader as he can sense that he is getting very very close to the PM seat with all the power. He is not going to give up without a fight put it this way coz he has a big plan waiting ...
…and as we've seen before, centrists definitely aren't stuck in 1997 and the press are definitely extremely reasonable and sensible.
The silence is, as usual, deafening.
Boris is playing him like a cheap fiddle. Hardly difficult as he has all the political guille of a filing cabinet.
I’ve just listened to Magic Grandad saying how he’s ‘protesting in the strongest possible terms’ about what Johnson is doing. He delivered it with all the heart, anger and passion of a bored health and safety bloke talking everyone through the fire regulations
He’s just totally and utterly ****ing useless! Boris is clearly absolutely itching to fight a general election against the doddering,vaccuous old fool! And who can blame him. He’ll absolutely walk it!
How is that working out for you @binners? Even your messiah Tony Blair is praising Corbyn;
In the space of a week we've seen someone who is apparently playing Corbyn "like a cheap fiddle" lose their majority, 22 of their own MPs, the nuclear option of no-deal Brexit and even the ability to call a General Election (unless BJ resigns to force it), all to a bloke who has an allotment, as if that's a measure of anything.
Of course, truth be told, none of this has come about in the last week alone. Politics is a long game and Corbyn and his team have actually been the ones playing the fiddles. It would speak volumes of your character if you could find the smallest bit of humility and acknowledge the above, but sadly I feel that your own hubris won't allow this.
Corbyn’s long game?
Do me a favour.
Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
The fact that he’s managed a whole week without monumentally *ing it up is hardly cause for celebration.
This is nowhere near over and I’ve as little confidence in him as ever he’ll get through another week without some head-in-hands clanger
Johnson wants an election because he believes he can beat grandad and get a majority. Have a think about that for a minute....
3 years of Tory Chaos from a party at war, a PM who’s tearing up the constitution and saying he won’t obey the law, all with the pound in free fall, no solution in sight, and the Labour Party are still trailing significantly in the polls
HOW? FFS?!
And somehow, because he managed to miss an elephant trap big enough to be seen from space, we’re all meant to think that’s absolutely peachy *ing creamy are we?
Brilliant! I was wrong all along. He’s a political genius! Big pat on the back for Jeremy for avoiding an elephant trap a three year old could have seen coming
Talk about limited expectations
I think Binners rhetoric is a little OTT, but he's fundamentally right - we've had this appalling Conservative government for a good few years now and Labour should be many many points ahead in the polls.
Labour seem to be 3-14% behind the Tories depending on the poll you read ( https://www.markpack.org.uk/155623/voting-intention-opinion-poll-scorecard/), the only upside seems to be a likelihood of a coalition but thats a tossup between Cons/Brexit party vs Lab/Libdems too.
Jess Phillips is busy promoting her book this week though Binners. Have you ordered it yet?
She clearly knows a well timed speech.
3 years of Tory Chaos from a party at war, a PM who’s tearing up the constitution and saying he won’t obey the law, all with the pound in free fall, no solution in sight, and the Labour Party are still trailing significantly in the polls
Glad you mentioned the pound in free-fall, one of the big issues of our social fabric.
Take on board - it's a complex situation with the vote/polls split many ways.
Just give your support to the Libs they are clearly more aligned with your politics.
we’ve had this appalling Conservative government for a good few years now and Labour should be many many points ahead in the polls.
You would like to think so wouldn't you but the polls are polling average voters (you know, the sort of people that think Brexit is a good idea)
What 3 things could Corbyn have done that you think would have got Labour ahead in the polls?
What 3 things could Corbyn have done that you think would have got Labour ahead in the polls?
1) Not standing in the 2015 leadership Campaign - Effective Remain Campaign from a credible Labour leadership: No Brexit. Tories would be looking to get re-elected after years in Govt, and years of Austerity. Labour win in 2020.
2) Resigned long before the 2017 election. Labour win in 2017. (Except May wouldn't have dared face any other candidate so there wouldn't have been an election.)
3) Resigned after the 2017 election. Labour could vote the government out *today* and would be on the verge of a landslide instead of trying to keep them in power.
Politics is a long game and Corbyn and his team have actually been the ones playing the fiddles.
Well yes, the Brexiteer Labour leadership strategy of ensuring Brexit happens and the blame goes to the Torys has worked a treat, but many people are not Bennites ideologically in favour of Brexit. SOme of us aren't Bennites at all.
Apart from Labour only doing so well in 2017 election BECAUSE OF Corbyn of course. If he had resigned before had they would have done worse.
None of those things would make Labour higher in the polls IMO. Labour going 100% remain would not necessarily make any difference as they would win some votes and lose a lot of others and how that would factor into parliamentary seats is another thing all together
'Just give your support to the the libs' - funnily enough that is exactly what I did in the European elections...
Plenty of previously reliable lifelong labour supporters (i.e. the ones who would get off their arses and actually go the polling station) are no longer welcome. Great.
In truth I'll probably vote labour in a GE to try to stop the tories (I'd vote Lib Dem in a different constituency) but its depressing that my vote will no doubt be taken as a glowing endorsement of Corbyn by the momentum acolytes same as it was in the last GE.
Labour seem to be 3-14% behind the Tories
And that's with no enforced media and press neutrality as required by an election campaign. Things are not as bleak as you think they are.
I’m in exactly the same boat as AD. I live in an ultra-marginal seat that swings between Labour and the Tory’s (presently Labour)
My Labour MP is certainly no Corbynite (so no doubt on the hit list for deselection), but is a really good constituency MP and a thoroughly decent bloke, so that’s where my vote will be going again
I’ve voted Labour all my life (and I always vote) but voted Lib Dem at the E.U. elections because I just despair at the constant clueless political ineptitude and abject complacency of Corbyn and (as this thread demonstrates) his acolytes opinion of my centrist views as ‘Blaitite scum’ or ‘Tory-lite’.
So I’ll vote for my constituency Labour MP, but certainly not the hopeless leadership who will then take my vote as a ringing endorsement of some Brexiteer red unicorns fantasy nonsense
Depressing, but at least I won’t be represented (hopefully) by some ****ing Tory
I feel politically homeless and ever more despairing of our political system
Its quite simple really Binners. If being called a Blairite upsets you so much then keep your odious Blairite opinions to yourself. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Conversely, despite you trying to use it as some sort of insult, I don't mind being called "Comrade" or a "Socialist" so I don't whine about it when you (quite often) chuck those terms around.
Great answer! Sums you all up perfectly, comrade
With you’re zeal for ideological purity the Corbynites have become some kind of warped Islington, quinoa-knitting Taliban. Perhaps you could start administering punishment beatings for those with insufficient faith?
You’re familiar with the concept of democracy? Winning elections and stuff? Like him who’s name must be spat like an insult, who did it three times?
It’s an interesting approach to dispense with the time-consuming and pragmatic task of trying to win over marginal voters, and concentrate instead on driving away the ones you’ve got
Good look securing that majority
**** it! I think I’ll go with my heart and vote Lib Dem instead.
They seem a bit more sane. You lot are unhinged!
Conversely, despite you trying to use it as some sort of insult, I don’t mind being called “Comrade” or a “Socialist”
Just to dispel any confusion, both are insults. Similar to being called a nazi.
Both are ridiculously laughable, self-indulgent, middle-class affectations
Both are ridiculously laughable, self-indulgent, middle-class affectations
In fairness, you'd know best.
Similar to being called a nazi.
FFS.
...
You lot are unhinged!
😂😂😂 what a topsy turvy world
Lib Dem Brexit Policy is the same as Labours right?
2nd referendum with a leave option vs Remain.
**** it! I think I’ll go with my heart and vote Lib Dem instead.
No you won’t. Anyone who hates the tories, and brexit, despite what you might think about Corbyn, has no choice but to vote labour if they present the best chance to stop Johnson, the ERG, Farage, and brexit.
I see Swinson has said they’ll stand down Lib Dem candidates to support the 21 tory rebels. 21 tories who repeatedly voted for brexit, to stop a 2nd referendum, to enact May’s deal, and some of whom supported Johnson. Not to mention all the stuff they supported which has impoverished working people while giving tax cuts and benefits to the rich. Are you really going to support that?
You have to think Corbyn's plan is two fold
He hates the EU so let the Tories take us out as badly as possible
Once the EU is gone, things deteriorate post brexit and folk finally realise what's happened, then the Tories are properly finished and labour can take over for the foreseeable
I'm no Corbyn fan, but I can't see brexit being scrapped. let the Tories take the pain and blame then mop up after seems to be his approach.
I voted Labour in 2017.
Voted LibDem since.
I’ll be voting Labour in the next general election.
Lots of other people will hold their noses and do the same in many seats. Because it’s FPTP and the Conservative Brexit Party must be stopped.
Corbyn is still a barrier to Labour winning any election.
No one trusts him beyond his blind faithful core.
Not being Johnson or Farage will win him a hell of a lot of votes and seats, but not enough.
Tories having their voters split and losing seats to the smaller parties will be the best way to stop them… so if you’re in a Tory/LibDem marginal… for god’s sake vote LibDem… even if you felt the coalition was damaging. If you’re in a Tory Scottish seat… vote SNP… even if you’re against independence. This election is about one thing… stopping No Deal and the speedy right wing reorganisation of the UK that will follow it.
his blind faithful core.
Have you considered for a second that pretty much anyone who trots out this rubbish about cults, cabals, comrades, Marxists etc are simply repeating what the daily mail, sun, and telegraph churn out on a daily basis? And you call Corbyn supporters blind?
Get voters to trust Corbyn, or replace Corbyn. Those are the options for Labour. Moaning about how everyone is blinded by the press they know are biased is no answer.
Tories having their voters split and losing seats to the smaller parties will be the best way to stop them… so if you’re in a Tory/LibDem marginal… for god’s sake vote LibDem… even if you felt the coalition was damaging. If you’re in a Tory Scottish seat… vote SNP… even if you’re against independence. This election is about one thing… stopping No Deal and the speedy right wing reorganisation of the UK that will follow it.
Yet still the Tories have a big lead. Not enough for a majority but unbelievably better than labour. The media is painting every other party as the enemies of democracy. Pile anti socialist rhetoric on top and it's deadly for labour.
The Tories will get the largest share of the vote, now that they are set to take back a major share of Farage’s vote. How that translates into seats will depend on how everyone else votes… which probably also depends on the parties getting smart as regards where they stand and campaign. Relying on Labour to do much better than in 2017 as regards the seat count would not be wise at this stage.
Tories own polling shows them well short of a majority
It seems, bizarrely, that some people voted for Brexit as a mechanism for reducing non-white immigration. Since the vote, European migrants have been leaving and non-European immigrants have increased in number. If and when we achieve no deal with the EU I can only imagine the French will feel less need to constrain migrants in the camps in Calais (and they want shot of them anyway) and we'll find lots more rocking up in Dover. It will be interesting to see how all that plays with the Tories/Faragists. Going by the conversation I had last night, all of it will be Corbyn's fault anyway. Like with BloJo, when people start hurling insults and name-calling it generally reflects a lack of convincing arguments and a paucity of understanding.
Slow hand clap for Tom Watson.
Johnson and Cummings on the defensive, opposition parties united, the tories imploding, no deal looking unlikely, the polls narrowing, and Corbyn beginning to look like a statesman. Obviously things have been going too well and Watson’s leadership ambitions have taken a knock.
Yeah, its kind of exactly the wrong time to start pissing in the canoe.
Another interpretation of that is that there is a majority of both labour voters, members and MPs who think the time for the continued fence-sitting announced by Corbyn yesterday was over a long time ago.
But I do agree with you that he really shouldn't be voicing that so publicly as its just playing into the Tories hands. The opposition looks, for the first time in years, united, while with the Tories it's just a case of which cabinet minister will resign next (Nicky Morgan for my money).
He's managed to keep his trap shut for a few weeks, he should have kept it that way
Bollocks! I'm agreeing with Daz again!
Yeah, its kind of exactly the wrong time to start pissing in the canoe.
Tend to agree on this score, but then, Tom Watson has always been about the promotion of Tom Watson, and has form for plotting against the party leader (and prime minister).
He missed out on his best opportunity by partying at Glasto, so is keen to be first in the line this time around. The idea of him as a 'unity prime minister' is particularly ironic.
Odious creature.
Not sure about the 'Corbyn starting to look like a statesman' bit above, but I suppose it's all relative in the current political vacuum.
The idea of him as a ‘unity prime minister’ is particularly ironic.
Thing is he has absolutely bugger all chance of becoming PM. The media, especially the more tabloidy, positively adore Corbyn compared to Watson.
Unless he completely sells out to them and promises them everything the attack campaigns will set a new record low.
Obviously things have been going too well and Watson’s leadership ambitions have taken a knock.
Was about to jump in and say similar.
He's been absent for a while. Maybe getting his book ready for his weight loss journey?
Him and Jess make a good couple. She's got a book out you know? 😉
The media, especially the more tabloidy, positively adore Corbyn compared to Watson.
This is very true. Wouldn't put it past the tabloid editors to feed his delusions at this point just to get the chance to rip him a new one during a campaign. And Tom is certainly good at believing what he fancies believing.
Watson will never be leader or PM.
With that out of the way… Corbyn meets with union leaders, agrees policy, then gives speech suggesting that is party policy, without consultation with members or MPs. Watson than gives speech with an alternative position that many members and MPs support (and probable most Labour voters).
Now… is sticking to the position agreed by Corbyn and union leaders the wisest path to take… I’d agree that it is. Does anything bind the deputy leader to it? I don’t think so. He isn’t appointed by Corbyn or the NEC, or the parliamentary party, he is elected by the party members to speak and act for them. If he doesn’t, who does?
I'm sure Seamas will soon tell everyone what to think and that'll clear everything up.
Unelected advisors are certainly playing a central role in taking back control of UK democracy.
While I'm also inclined to agree on the unified front thing, it's conference - if you can't say what you think there, where can you say it?
I’m sure Seamas will soon tell everyone what to think and that’ll clear everything up.
Interestingly I read somewhere that the reason everything's gone a bit more smoothly recently has been because Seamus has been on an extended 'holiday', which has allowed John McD, Thornberry and Starmer to work on Jezza over the summer.
Also, the combined union position seems to be exactly that… and not just something pushed by “Len”. That still doesn’t mean that members and MPs shouldn’t have a say before the policy cooked up behind closed doors is presented as settled, and anyone deviating from it silenced.
I've also read that in more than one place Daz.
Just confirms what has been obvious for a while about the whole 'bunker mentality' and which member of the 'team' is the most confrontational, controlling and completely closed to the idea of compromise.
I hope this is the sign of things to come and not a temporary blip.
The fact is that Dominic Cummings and Seamas Milne are two cheeks of the same arse
Not very similar at all. Except that both are perhaps trusted too much on strategy by party leaders. They have very different aims and means.
Even Polly Toynbee has come around to Corbyn's set up. There will be some concerns in Waitrose car park.
The horrible reality of Boris Johnson as PM, who's exceeding even the very worse predictions, with a psychopath pulling his strings, and the ERG charging towards the cliff edge, has certainly focussed minds
Corbyn is still shit. But right now he's by far the least shit realistic option, and the clock is ticking...
Johnson has helped Corbyn look like a PM in waiting, when they are in Parliament. The sooner PMQs get going again… the better.
Distraction, Kimbers.
https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1175021691124236289?s=19
https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1175085538765889537?s=19
Long game...
Why pick now to have a party purge?
Because they don't want to go into an election with Watson constantly undermining everything.
It will be voted on.
Whereas the Tories booted 21 MPs without any sort of democratic process ...
Jess Phillips showing up just in time this weekend for the Sunday Times magazine.
She's really not much of a self-publicist is she? What the hell good does this do for Labour?
Is this all part of Jeremy’s quest to ‘restore democracy to the party’?
As long as everyone carries on agreeing with me then you can have all the democracy you like, comrades.
I wonder who’s next to be airbrushed out of the politburo photographs?
Nice to see the focus is on the most pressing issues of the day though. I suppose that’s what happens when everything’s just ticking over nicely...
It’s not just Phillips though, is it @rone. This action seems to have sprung loads of MPs into vocal and fervent condemnation of what’s going on in their party.
That aged well binners.
This ‘restoring democracy to the party’ lark is going well, isn’t it?
Looks like Jeremy is now out of the loop and Len, Jon, Karie and Seamus don’t even bother to consult him (or anyone else) any more before they announce what party policy is this week 😂
It’s not about Corbyn, it’s about what happens after him.
This is a good read.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/21/bankers-corbyn-tories-no-deal-capitalism-radical-government
I normally stay away from these threads, but watching the news over the last couple of days, I couldn’t help but notice that Corbyn and Boris both seem to be saying the same damn thing; let’s have an election, then we can persuade the EU to come back with a better offer.
What better offer! Christ, we had May, and now Johnstone and Corbyn all bleating on about a better offer, and all the time the EU has been repeating the same thing - there is no better offer!
Or am I missing something really obvious here? 😖
🦄
Dazh where are you?
Corbyn isn’t only claiming he can come back with an “offer” better than the current Withdrawal Agreement, but that he can deliver a Brexit that will make us better off than if we remained in the EU. Bold claim. Vague on the details. Sounds like a unicorn to me. Will this week at conference be about backing his ‘plan’ to get a ‘deal’, and then recommend it to the country… or will members actually get a vote on what policy should be? Place your bets…
So what is this “agreement with the EU” that can make us better off outside the EU?
Anyone?
Going to be a fun packed week.
I'm beginning to think Corbyn is being funded by the Tories, no one can surely be as incompetent as he appears to be, it must be a deliberate attempt to make Labour unelectable.
Lifelong Brexiteer re-affirms his commitment to Brexit isn't really news, is it?
The red unicorns do seem to be getting more and more fantastical though
Will this week at conference be about backing his ‘plan’ to get a ‘deal’, and then recommend it to the country… or will members actually get a vote on what policy should be?
As usual, the 'leadership' are doing everything to avoid any actual debate and stifle any dissent. Apparently Brexit policy will be discussed at some future special conference, not now. There definitely won't be a vote as Corbyn's views don't reflect Labour MPs, members or voters opinions. Something he knows full well
Its getting difficult to see what's satire any more
I'm sure the Lib Dems vote will be increasing day-on-day through the course of the week as Labour Brexit policy becomes even more laughable
I've watched the Andrew Marr interview this morning (I'm at home, dying of cat Aids *) and 2 things struck me.
1. Because he (Corbyn) doesn't do interviews, when they do get him to turn up, they have a bunch of stuff they want to ask, about which Corbyn then gets exasperated about, because for him this is old news, and he wants to talk about other newer stuff, and;
2. Because he doesn't do TV enough, he's really really bad at it, and folk like Marr just run rings around him.
*The bad sort
Count
You are missing that without May's red lines a much better deal is available
Still stupid and damaging mind you
On todays conference agenda - Corbyn and his cabal are presently getting the union block vote of McClusky et al to block the overwhelmingly pro-remain members motion for Labour to campaign for remain in any second referendum.
That's 'restoring democratic power to the membership', apparently
Yes, astonishing that while watching the Tories squabble in public for the last three years, The lesson Labour appear to have taken on board is that rather than presenting a clear policy that 99.9% of the membership can get behind and are desperate for, or looking at all competent, have chosen instead, to copy the Tories and attempt an inept bit of score settling, letting the person who organised their successful election strategy of 2017 go and at the same time write a coruscating attack on the leadership, and mount a conference stitch up.
Slow Hand clap....
One irony of all this is the deathgrip command and control Blair was able exert over the Labour party - and the unions were just as left wing back then as they are now - compared with current leadership.
Always amusing to see the hysteria whipped up by a labour party conference. The trouble is that unlike other parties, labour use the conference as a key element of their democratic decision making process. That means they end up debating issues, disagreeing with eachother, and yes it also unfortunately provides a platform for some to pursue their grievances. The end result is a field day for the media who can prattle on about a 'party at war', and their critics who can easily use it against them. If it was up to me I'd cancel the whole thing and move decision making to a more transparent forum with direct democracy exercised online.
And on Tom Watson, the misguided attempt to remove him can be explained by the simple fact that he's a king size **** who for two years has been acting as shadow leader in waiting rather than deputy leader. He simply hasn't done his job, and the labour party has suffered massively because of it. I'm only amazed it took them this long to try to get rid of him, and that's why it was a bit stupid as you rarely win a battle fought out of desperation. Are we forgetting that as recently as 3 weeks ago, when labour had successfully defeated Boris, exposed Swinson for the fraud she is, and had a solid platform to prevent no deal, Watson decided to stick his oar in to remind everyone of his leadership ambitions by undermining everything they'd done in the past month.
Anyway, enjoy the rest of the week. I'm sure it will provide a lot more gossip (which is essentially all politics is these days), and it will be completely forgotten about by the time the election comes round.
More from Guardian...
Composite 14 on Brexit. This is the composite motion backing the leadership position although, unlike the NEC statement, it does not say explicitly that the decision on the party’s stance in a referendum should be postponed. It just says Jeremy Corbyn has made the way forward “abundantly clear” by backing a public vote.
Labour accepts that all three motions could be passed - even though the NEC statement and composite 13 are contradictory.
Today’s votes will not automatically determine Labour’s position at the next election, officials admit. The decision as to what goes into the manifesto will be taken nearer the time at a clause V meeting, where the NEC, the shadow cabinet and union leaders will agree the text of the document
So it looks like today's votes are not binding and contradictory motions could pass.
The trouble is that unlike other parties, labour use the conference as a key element of their democratic decision making process.
Which other parties? Because, other than the Conservative Party (and Brexit non-Party), other party conferences are used for exactly that role, and the members (well, attendees) have far more say over what is debated and voted on.
As for Watson. No fan. But you have to wonder what Labour policy would have been at this point without him. All other shadow cabinet members who called for a referendum with a Remain option were fired. He only wasn’t because he is elected not appointed. Has he been a thorn in the arse of the leader and his team? Absolutely. And I for one thank him for it.
Its also a bit rich lecturing other people on internal party democracy when the leadership is dependent on union block votes to outvote the membership who's wishes it clearly opposes.
Doesn't look like that is going to work now, BTW, as Unison is saying it will vote with the membership against Corbyns preposterous 'neutral' Red Unicorns Brexit position.
So we'll have the sight to look forward to of Grandad reading out his support for campaigning for remain like he's in an ISIS hostage video stating that his captors are treating him well.
As for Watson, they can get rid of him any time they like. All it takes is the support of 20% of the parties MP's to trigger a ballot. Ever stopped to think why that hasn't happened? Because Corbyn would never get the support of 20% of his own MP's to do it. That's why.
Again... championing internal party Democracy? Only when it suits, eh?
Doesn’t look like that is going to work now, BTW as Unison is saying it will vote wit the membership against Corbyns preposterous ‘neutral’ Brexit position.
Binners you've just contradicted yourself in two sentences. How can Corbyn be 'using' the unions to repress democracy if they then go and vote against him?
So we’ll have the sight to look forward to of Grandad reading out his support for campaigning for remain like he’s in an ISIS hostage
It's no secret that Corbyn is pro-brexit, and yes it would be much easier if he wasn't. But he is, and to go back on that now would look pretty silly. It's perfectly possible for him to play the Harold Wilson role, the rest of them will campaign how they want, probably remain like McDonnell, Thornberry, Starmer et al. Watson no doubt will continue campaigning for himself.
Binners you’ve just contradicted yourself in two sentences. How can Corbyn be ‘using’ the unions to repress democracy if they then go and vote against him?
Daz - I'm merely pointing out that the Labour party is not some one-member-one-vote beacon of democracy. The union block vote can out-vote the membership. And that is precisely what Corbyn is trying to get them to do.
Corbyn and his goons have been leaning heavily on the unions to support their position, against the wishes of the membership. They can always rely on anti-EU, 70's-throwback dinosaurs like Len McClusky, but it seems more forward-thinking and less reactionary unions aren't playing ball as their memberships are increasingly pro-remain. As are Len McClucky's. Not that you'd know it.
Whichever way you try and slice it, Corbyn is in direct contradiction with the opinions of most of the labour membership, its MP's and its voters over Brexit, and is pulling all kinds of stunts so his Brexity view prevails over their pro-remain one.
And thats how party democracy works, Corbyn-style, apparently
Corbyns preposterous ‘neutral’ Red Unicorns Brexit position.
There's nothing preposterous about the policy of staying neutral over a deal or remain ref.
It's the most bit of sense we've heard on Brexit for 3 years.
We it seems we are faced with a choice between 1984 or Animal Farm.
(Guess which is on the GCSE English Lit syllabus)