Jeremy Corbyn

She's been elected already?

As Tory leader.

May has a substantial policy position on Brexit, which she laid out in a detailed speech earlier in the year. A speech that has been greeted by those that matter in the EU as a good starting place for negotiations

Pointless banging head against a wall, Mol, the concept of privilege and nurtured mindsets is lost on this one...

I grew up in a council house, went to state schools in Tooting and then Andover and went to Uni on a full grant as my parents who both worked earned very little. I understand the concept of privilege, where I disgree with you is that its a tiny fraction of the population. I have inherited nothing from my parents, grandparents or great grandparents. Neither have my parents. @ukyses your pantomine post towards me is very very wide of the mark.

Some of these sweeping generalisations and stero typing are quite startling, espcecially from those here who claim to be piberal and open minded. Likewise insulting working class Tory voters, they make their decsion based on sound principles just as do any of us.

The United States was founded by people with nothing, its one of the most right wing countries in the world as those who have built a life starting with nothing want nothing from the state other than the opportunity to work.

Not really - ruled out Freedom of Movement which Starmer has done (although it will be interesting to hear what Corbyn says), ruled out ECJ jurisdiction and ruled out big contributions. (Probably ruled out Customs Union too, but there may be some room for manoeuvre)

The United States was founded by people with nothing,

#jambafact

TM is coming to Wales and has a piece in the Western Mail. I've only read some excerpts on the BBC website but yes @binners like your Mash link people will be lapping it up.

I grew up in a council house

Ok fine - this comes under the "I managed it why can't you?" argument from this morning. So two questions:

1) Do rich people have better opportunities than poor ones?

2) Is it always poor people's own fault that they are poor?

The United States was founded by people with nothing

Guess they didn't teach you history at your state school cos that's very much not at all true.

[img] :large[/img]

Tory Party lead Labour by 13% among those that earn less than £20,000

Theresa May is very popular on the doorstep. This doesn't surprise me, I had a sneaking suspicion she was going to be very popular when she was elected.

remarkable considering her incompetence as home sec, but I fear sadly true

From a personal perspective a lot older people I know who would only ever vote Tory are stating they won't this time due to the omnishambles that is Brexit.

Whereas the Pro-Brexit ones who would still vote Tory are fed up with the endless voting, and have got what they want, so may not bother this time ...

If this attitude is common, then who knows how the voting could go.

The only "substantial" bit of TM's plan for Brexit is the amount of chaotic self-harm it will invite early on. It's as if the Tories have found an excellent way to punish the poor using something lots of them voted for. At least in the past, they've been [more] upfront about doing it. However, Brexit is proving to be a colossal opportunity to punish them even more - while telling them that it's their "will" in the first place. Genius!

And come on, comparing Guy to IDS as the same level of nutter from either side? That's a stretch.

I kinda feel for Starmer. One can see that he gets what a clustershite it's all going to be and he's obviously a capable remainer. But this is a cobbled together bit of policy that puts little more than a cigarette paper between Labour and the Tories - coming as it does from clueless rudderless leadership. it looks softer for sure and I imagine a Labour government would go for something altogether softer than the Tories, who, despite being largely remain have to appease their RWNJ wing, get back their losses to UKIP in the electorate, and fulfill their aim to keep capital in the hands of the factory owners and away from the poor as much as possible. I admire the stated aim to guarantee rights of EU citizens here and get the same for U.K. citizens abroad. But for a voter considering a vote where Brexit is the most important issue (and yes, other issues will be brought in, but let's not kid ourselves that this election is about much else other than a Brexit induced power grab), this doesn't give much choice between Labour and Tory.

A centrist Tory-ish voter will likely stay blue for now. I'll only be voting Labour in my constituency to keep Tories out, as well as my MP being good at being an MP and being a remainer in the first place.

Labour are stuck between a dog-turd and a slurry pit on Brexit in their desire to claw back UKIP votes in cities. Their only hope would be to go full on centrist and say they'd offer a second referendum or a progressive alliance with the LDs and SNP. But that can't work in a FPTP system. In larger constituencies with [proper] PR that might stand a chance, but not here.

I don't think Corbyn can survive the battering he's about to get. The only worry is who the lunatics running the asylum would put up in his place.

I guess we'll get a good taste of how things will go with the May 4th elections.

And come on, comparing Guy to IDS as the same level of nutter from either side? That's a stretch.

Not really, they are both bêtes noires as far as the opposite camps are concerned, it is just you happen to be firmly in one camp.

Not really, they are both bêtes noires as far as the opposite camps are concerned

I see what you mean there, but that's not what you said in the first place.

Verhofstadt speech on brexit

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vs IDS' action plan for brexit

[img] [/img]

page 14 is side splitting
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/library/road-to-brexit

theres only 1 grown up there (yeah Im selectively quoting but IDS is a plum)

I see what you mean there, but that's not what you said in the first place.

I called them both nutters, a term used by those who oppose them.

Verhofstadt's solution to everything is more Europe, he is as much an ideologue as IDS.

^^^ this. Farage was spot on to describe him as the High Priest of the European [b]Union[/b]

Molly of course rich people have more opportunity that the poor. We are all relatively rich in the UK and have far more opportunity than those in less developed countries

No of course not all poor people are poor through their own inaction. What Inwould say is fhat in the uk they have access to free schooling and healthcare and if they are really poor free housing

TM has been pretty clear on Brexit - her published outline plan etc It was clear we'd be leaving the single market 9 months ago as the EU said that was inseperable with freedom of movement, ditto customs union, budget contributions, ecj etc

I called them both nutters, [s]a term used by those who oppose them.[/s]

TM has been pretty clear on Brexit - her published outline plan etc It was clear we'd be leaving the single market 9 months ago as the EU said that was inseperable with freedom of movement, ditto customs union, budget contributions, ecj etc

[url= https://www.ft.com/content/72ead180-229a-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16 ]But Davis 2 weeks ago said the EMA and EBA might not be leaving London[/url], and they require ECJ/ FOM / budget contributions etc

TM also very clearly promised several times that there would be no early GE........ and here we are rushing through an early GE before the Brexies twig that there be big compromises-a-comin

How is 'the best deal possible' clear?

Molly of course rich people have more opportunity that the poor. We are all relatively rich in the UK and have far more opportunity than those in less developed countries

Do you think this is right, Jam?

Does anyone not think we are living in a world of overlapped political idealogies; confused and complex policies - that we need to wipe the slate clean?

A good example was Martin Lewis talking about the Tory energy price cap idea - effectively meddling with the albeit messed up 'free market' of energy prices. So we have a Tory government trying to adjust the market to help the lower end. Lewis's point was either let's all agree to make the energy prices work for everyone by effectively controlling the market completely removing pricing competition or leave it in the lap of the gods/market and the switching hell we have to endure. But don't enact both together.

The idea we have at the moment generally is that people who don't switch lose out. So those that do can benefit. A controlled market would mean the 'switchers' pay more.

Labour under Ed M was offering the same thing!

A mess of ideas and political posturing that ultimately doesn't serve anyone.

(I'm all for reversing back some of this shareholder driven stuff actually as switching products is a massive ball-ache.)

It's just a fact of life molgrips, well life in the real world rather than in utopia. The easiest way to fix wealth/opportunity inequality is to ask all the rich people to leave. The Corbyn/Marxist alternative is to take their money and "redistribute it". Personally I would anticipate rich people would chose option 1. The Corbyn/Marxist type idea is totally dependent upon rich people being unable to leave, probably by forcibly restraining their ability to travel or move assets.

Does anyone not think we are living in a world of overlapped political idealogies

A country of them yes. It's because we have FPTP. So only one party governs and you can't have a blend of policies without one party nicking those of the other.

The eaiest way to fix wealth/opportunity inequality is to ask all the rich people to leave.

Those rich people - certainly at some point needed the 'backs' of less rich people to attain their wealth.

Like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg or ....

Rone that is a very outdated sort of thinking (totally consistent with John McDonnell though).

A country of them yes. It's because we have FPTP. So only one party governs and you can't have a blend of policies without one party nicking those of the other

Well partly for sure. But the way I see it if someone comes up with something new or different to the established norm it's just torn apart by the media.

Rone that is a very outdated sort of thinking

Okay then - call me old fashioned, but how can you have this sort of extreme wealth without exploitation of someone or something?

Where would we be without China for a start?

Mark Zuckerberg

He's done alright for himself.

Yes, with all that success they have around 20,000 employees.

Rone that is a very outdated sort of thinking (totally consistent with John McDonnell though).

Alex - well I certainly don't agree Marxism is the way forward and I picked "outdated" as its been tried and/or rejected pretty much everywhere.

Alex, yes some jobs pay better than others. Systems where everyone "gets the same" have been tried and failed - not least as "some animals where more equal than others"

Where would we be without China for a start?

well I certainly don't agree Marxism is the way forward and I picked "outdated" as its been tried and/or rejected pretty much everywhere.

It's an alternate to capitalism, the two can't really run alongside each other, it's pretty much one or t'other, and the folk who do well from Capitalism are naturally going to make sure that Marxism never gets a foothold, which they've done pretty successfully. it remains "a fact" that more people would do better under an economy run along Marxist ideals.

Does anyone not think we are living in a world of overlapped political idealogies

Thats why its called the middle ground!

Maybe those who hop up and down screaming about how the Tories are 'ultra right wing' and how 'the centre has moved right' due to Blair ought to take a long hard look at (in my opinion foolish) policies like capping energy prices when they pontificate? How on earth is that a right wing policy? Even the Tories ridiculed it for being ridiculously left wing just a couple of years ago, but the fact that they are pursuing it is proof of how Labour under Corbyn has abandoned the middle ground - and how comfortable the Tories feel in putting out populist policies that seize it.

jambalaya - Member

Alex - well I certainly don't agree Marxism is the way forward and I picked "outdated" as its been tried and/or rejected pretty much everywhere.

Alex, yes some jobs pay better than others. Systems where everyone "gets the same" have been tried and failed - not least as "some animals where more equal than others"

John McDonnell is Shadow Chancellor and a Marxist. @nick my view with Marxism is no one will do well out of it, everyone will be worse off.

As for "gone too far" well the bad news is going to get a lot worse as more management jons get offshored. We are far too happy to save a few £ (or even pence) on CRC / Wiggle etc and out the LBS out of business. Far too happy to use an Uber and see relatively decent paying taxi jobs go in an end game which will see driverless taxis. But hey oh lets try and go after "the rich" which have now been defiend as earning £70k pa.

Hmm.. but they aren't the same thing are they?

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/25/vote-labour-jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may ]George Monbiot makes a good point[/url]

"Those who tolerated anything the Labour party did under Blair tolerate nothing under Corbyn. Those who insisted that we should vote Labour at any cost turn their backs as it seeks to recover its principles."

Those who tolerated anything the Labour party did under Blair tolerate nothing under Corbyn. Those who insisted that we should vote Labour at any cost turn their backs as it seeks to recover its principles.

Perhaps it's because:

Yes, Jeremy Corbyn is disappointing. Yes, his leadership has been marked by missed opportunities, weakness in opposition and (until recently) incoherence in proposition, as well as strategic and organisational failure.

Daz I tried but couldn't manage to get past the first three paragraphs. All the Labour grandees warned the party that a Corbyn leadership would lead to this they can hardly be exoected to turn 180 degrees and say a vote for him is a good idea,

Perhaps it's because

So because Corbyn is a dithering incompetent, that justifies handing more power to the most rightwing tory leader in a generation? For the likes of labour moderates, that makes absolutely no sense at all.

No one is handing power to the Tories more than Corbyn, Momentum and the people who voted him in. He was ALWAYS going to be an electoral disaster, it was blindingly obvious. That's why people like me thought very seriously about spending £3 to vote for him.

So because Corbyn is a dithering incompetent, that justifies handing more power to the most rightwing tory leader in a generation?

No (and your quote didn't even mention voting for another party). It does however explains why people tolerated Blair's leadership but not JC's which is what your quote is questioning. ...and in spite of the fact Blair won an election post Iraq, almost nobody has forgiven him for Iraq. Most people want to see him on trial so it's not like tolerance for Blair was limitless anyway.

Perhaps it's because:

It's because of image. That's all. Look at all the negative imagery flying around the guy. Mostly from Binners though to be fair.

Look at all the negative imagery flying around the guy.

Which doesn't matter as long as he never gets a job where getting himself positively portrayed in the media is utterly critical... Ahhhh wait...

Daz I tried but couldn't manage to get past the first three paragraphs.

Really? Was it that hard to read or that boring . I guess it explains a lot.

George Monbiot makes a good point

It is highly unlikely he has, but I checked and as anticpated he hasn't. Any argument that relies on the suggestion that Theresa May is the most right wing leader of Tories in sometime is clearly ludicrous. She wants to cap energy prices and she seems to be pretty interventionist. Free Marketeers are not impressed.

Depends on how you define right wing. Her anti-immigration stance is pretty strong.

Her anti-immigration stance is pretty strong.

Depends on how you define right wing. I don't think I am being unfair to say Ernie L is against Freedom of Movement and he doesn't have a right wing bone in his body.

Any argument that relies on the suggestion that Theresa May is the most right wing leader of Tories in sometime is clearly ludicrous.

Ludicrous if you believe the fiction that she's a one-nation tory who has the interests of normal people at heart. All that 'vicar's daughter' nonsense is the same as Thatcher being a shopkeeper's daughter. She's worse than the rightwing in many ways. They at least have some beliefs, however misguided they are. Chairman May only cares about her own ambition and power, and will do whatever is required to maintain that, including encouraging hatred of foreigners, and the wholesale demonisation of anyone who dares to oppose or disagree with her. She will allow the rightwing to do whatever they want as long as they tolerate her as leader. That much more dangerous than the likes of more moderate tory PMs like Cameron or Major, and probably even Thatcher.

She wants to cap energy prices and she seems to be pretty interventionist. Free Marketeers are not impressed

Well that's where i started my post but as Martin Lewis explained. It won't work.

It's either fairer for everyone or free-market pricing.

It's a token policy. Both sides will be guilty of that and certainly Ed M tried more or less the same policy proposal.

I would say she's still strongly to the right and throwing a cookie like this is more about creating a media headline. Just like her inauguration speech which was almost with a social consciounce. But it's Malcolm Tucker PR, not a move to the left.

Got agree with Daz. Theresa May has not just allowed some pretty unsavoury rightwing, intolerant racist language and attitudes to enter the mainstream, she's positively encouraged it. Along with the hysterical 'Enemies of the People' attitude of the right wing press to suppress dissent. All for her own ends. As we know this is always ends well.

Not to worry though. Its the last PMQ's before the election shortly. Expect a souring oratory from Jeremy to point out this, and all the other faults she possesses, while clearly articulating his bold vision for the future of the country, as he continues his relentless march towards power. All as the Maybot quakes before him, seeing her political future crumbling.

Well... something like that.....

"I've just got a letter......from a Mrs Trellis of North Wales....."

His postbag is still quite full. Now we know why he doesn't have chance to do much else. What with reading all those, and then there's the allotment.....

Jezza rants.
Angus asks a question.

On a slightly different note, it's pretty refreshing seeing most Lab MPs putting aside differences to focus on getting elected.

I know it's only because they have no choice, but it might be one of the factors in seeing the press actually reporting some of the policies for a change.

PMQs was as depressing as ever. JC's desperate ranting vs May's sneery 'not fit to lick my leapard-skin shoes' put-downs.

PMQs was as depressing as ever. JC's desperate ranting vs May's sneery 'not fit to lick my leapard-skin shoes' put-downs.

National embarrasment IMHO. Labour were spot on to reduce it to 1 a week. 0 a week would be better. It's just the MPs thinking up questions that can't be answered without political damage and the PM avoiding the question. Then a few lackeys ask planted questions.

Then a few lackeys ask planted questions.

they really really grind my gears

toadying, lickspittle circle jerkers

I live in the only Labour constituency in Scotland and just had our MPs canvassers at the door. Conversation went something like:

"We'd like to encourage you to vote for Ian Murray"
"He's a decent MP, but, well, don't want to encourage anyone to take that as an endorsement of Corbyn"
"Yes, we get that. Everyone's telling us he's the problem"
"Yes, he is"
"You don't need to worry though, he'll not be PM and he won't be around for much longer"
"So what's the point in voting Labour then?"
"Fair point"

At least in your constituency Labour turned up at the door. I think they've given up where I am and it seems a straight fight between SNP and Conservative, with both parties doing the rounds knocking on doors. Labour seemly reduced to a lone, grubby looking man putting a leaflet through the letter box and scurrying off.

Post Farron's PMQ hammering at least the Lib Dems showed leadership in dealing with anti-semites in their ranks. Sacked immediately.

On a lighter note (well for me anyway), the Tories best election weapon ...

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The caption reads - It's the Conservative Party battle bus

I feel confident he would treat islamophobes exactly the same way and he does not have time for those who play the race card and try and demonise any religion or people
I bet he is not the sort of person to pick and choose over whether its wrong to treat races/religions like this depending on which one they follow.

Labour seemly reduced to a lone, grubby looking man putting a leaflet through the letter box and scurrying off.

he does not have time for those who play the race card

No time for playing that game of divide and rule, is there?

"After signing a Holocaust Educational Trust book of remembrance, Mr Ward had blogged that he was “saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians”."

Can't say I agree with it, but not really anti-Semitic, IMHO.

Hang on a minute.....[url= http://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-backs-theresa-mays-brexit-credentials-10852025 ]He's a what?[/url] 😯

Being personally attacked by Boris like this, just makes a lot of people, particularly traditional Labour voters think.....

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I hope they keep this kind of thing up. Because theres nothing like having some over-privilidged Eton buffoon launching personal attacks, using words they've never heard, to make the average working class voter think... 'hey... you know what.... that guy really has my best interests at heart'

They need to wheel Jacob Rees Mogg out too. Every time he opens his mouth, theres a 2% spike in the Labour vote. The more the Tories go about 'being Tories', the closer the polls are going to get. Its alright banging on (a bit too smugly and complacently IMHO) about the huge poll lead, but I think that the press don't really understand just how toxic the Tories still are in certain parts of the country. This was amply illustrated by their shock at the outpouring of Joy in a lot of places when Fatcha carked it. That attitude towards them is very much alive and well in a lot of places, who have long memories, and are also noting the Fatcha/May comparisons that the right wing press think is a plus point. Yeah, well it might be in some places. In others....

Now the proper campaign has begun, I can only see the polls going one way. Closer. I expect as they do that we'll see an unbelievable level of nastiness against Corbyn in the right-wing press

"Meandering and Nonsensical"?

Boris really does have no self-awareness, does he?

Indeed.

Pot....

kettle

Is Boris a Labour plant?

Is Boris a Labour plant?

<tinfoilhat>
Boris is one of the three brexiteers responsible for managing Brexit. Would he rather be out of office without Brexit in his in tray?</tinfoilhat>

We love Boris. His intervention in the Referendum was a key factor in a Leave victory. Die hard Labour supporters don't like him and that's a badge of honour.

He uses these bizarre words on purpose - just look at the press its EVERYWHERE. If he'd just called an idiot or incompetant there would be nothing like the coverage 🙂

We love Boris.

Forelock tugger.

We love Boris

Speak for yourself. Boris isn't half as clever as he thinks he is. And he massively overestimates his own importance, as well as his intelligence. He's a useful idiot for May. A fall guy for when it all goes tits up. Thats all

I hope he keeps doing what he's doing. The present huge Tory poll lead is down to previous labour voters switching to the Tories. But it looks like the poll lead has gone to their head, and they're feeling far too smug about the Brexit vote, and are reverting to type. Smug. Superior. Born to Rule. And thats exactly how this kind of thing comes across

Boris's attack was meant to diminish Corbyn, and I'm sure everyone in Surrey found it all frightfully witty... good old Boris eh..... but those people all vote Tory anyway.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/the-fk-is-a-mugwump-asks-corbyn-20170427126693 ]How do you think its playing elsewhere?[/url]

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/may-considering-bringing-back-workhouses-for-a-laugh-20170427126685 ]And how do you think the Tories prematurely triumphalist attitude is being perceived in places with fewer ivory towers?[/url]

He's a useful idiot for May. A fall guy for when it all goes tits up. Thats all

Another misjudged policy. Every time you see him in the line-up with the other G8 foreign ministers, the cringe is massive. There's more going on in the UK's rapidly contracting sphere of influence than Brexit, and Boris, wherever possible, will **** it up for us.

Yes, but he's always been like this and it never seems to make him less popular. Look at how many Labour/Swing voters must have changed to vote him in as Mayor.

^^ what Alex says. Labour have a massive in-built advantage in the London mayoral vote and Boris won twice.

Borris only just scraped in as mayor the 2nd time against a deeply unpopular and increasingly erratic Livingston that even the guardian had turned against!

Yes undoubtedly popular tho, a convincing liar and amoral hypocrite of the highest order, which makes him a good politician, I suppose.

While he happily tosses out insults that are deeply pleasing to Sun readers (he's been allowed off the leash specifically for this task today).

As our foreign sec he's an embarrassment, he is the international poster boy for the lies of Brexit, as such his attempts at further sanctions on Russia were ignored out of hand at the G7.
So he's a great example of post Brexit Britain , really.

We could all learn from Corbyn on this one. Apart from some of the right wing nut jobs, he's probably one of the most insulted politicians in Britain presently, yet, he doesn't really do it back.

I wonder how borris and his wager thin cred ability have survived brexit, most rational people have seen through his lies and shit. The last outburst may appeal to the old Tories but it's another example of how out of touch some are.

It's about building a narrative, the Tories a have an awkward, cold seeming leader.

It's in their interest to wheel out Johnson and throw silly names at Corbyn

So May seems to be all calm and collected by comparison (even if shes actually short tempered and indecisive and her time at home sec showed she's pretty useless and incompetent to boot)