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Well I know who I'd believe.
It may be, but it also appears very clearly to be supported by documents plus two of the key SA politicians who had skin in the game, So it's their word versus the impressions of a junior civil servant, and I don't see their motivation for lying to protect maggies reputation.
Perhaps a bit of whitewashing going on....?
Mandela was a communist
undoubtedly joined the party, but as Prof Ellis states in his book, it was probably for the political expediency of the connections, rather than some ideological bent. Most Chinese have a copy of the little red book, most German kids pre-war were...You get the gist.
Is there a term for selective fake news...
Perhaps a bit of whitewashing going on....?
Both of them (FW and Pik) were instrumental in ending apartheid, so what have they got to gain by defending her?
Look, arguing with ninfan about [b]The Lady[/b] is like convincing a Jihadist that Allah liked bacon butties.
We must all bow before her greatness.
So those who dare to besmirch her name must say 10 Hail Maggies and flagellate yourself before her portrait
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Really? Came on an internet forum, but gave up arguing with Ninfan just because her arguments are too tough to rebut?
gave up arguing with ninfan after her got banned for his weird 'ask your mum about rape' meltdown a few weeks ago
As trolls go he can be amusing, sometimes he even has legitimate points to make but he can get very nasty, the only person that'd admit to having a Stormfront login on stw!
And to play the ball, fathcha spent many years supporting a brutal regime of racial segregation before eventually coming to realise that the world was changing and that it had to be ended.
Back on topic Corbs was way ahead of her on that one
Corbs has been ahead of the curve on just about everything..
Thatcher only supported the ending the apartheid when it suited her and she could no longer fly in the face of a changing world.
fathcha spent many years supporting a brutal regime of racial segregation before eventually coming to realise that the world was changing and that it had to be ended.
But that's the point - she didn't spend years 'supporting' it, she spent years trying to change it through a policy of engagement and reform, rather than exclusion and sanctions. There being more than one way to skin a cat in this world of ours.
A policy that the SA leadership of the time have said very clearly had more influence in changing things than any other world leader, let alone a minor back bench MP wearing a placard.
You can disagree with the policy, you can argue that it wasn't the best solution - People are allowed to share the same, worthy aim, whilst disagreeing about the best way of achieving it - but the left of the time, unable to win the ideological debate over engagement or sanctions, resorted to selling the lie that she was pro-apartheid (proven to be a lie by the clear opposition and repeated pressure applied that we can witness in documents released, and the aforementioned recollections of those who were involved in actually dismantling apartheid)
Thatcher only supported the ending the apartheid when it suited her and she could no longer fly in the face of a changing world.
It's simply not true - contents below from a 1977 letter, before Corbyn was even an MP:
[i]"We believe that the objective for South Africa must be rapid progress towards equal human rights for all South Africans, Furthermore, we have strongly condemned the recent repressive measures adopted by the South African authorities... In my view, isolation will lead only to an increasingly negative and intransigent attitude in the part of white South African," [/i]
I can also post unreferenced quotes:
"Geoffrey Howe told me he was “aware” of pro-apartheid voices like Terry Dicks in the Conservative party in the 1980s, “if only because they were not far from Margaret Thatcher in their attitude”."
Eh? You've gone from "Thatcher only supported the ending the apartheid when it suited her and she could no longer fly in the face of a changing world." to "some other bloke thought that someone else thought something similar to Thatcher"
You want referenced quotes? How's about [url= http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1979/jul/25/southern-africa#S5CV0971P0_19790725_HOC_236 ]Hansard, 1979[/url]
][i]I was referring to the critical role of South Africa in the settlement of the problems. [u]The policy of apartheid, with its emphasis on separating peoples rather than bringing them together, and all the harshness required to impose it on the South African population is wholly unacceptable.[/u] Within South Africa, as in the outside world, [u]there is a growing recognition that change must come. It is in everyone's interest that change should come without violence. [/u]We must work by fostering contact, not by ostracism. We must be ready to acknowledge and welcome progress when it is made, even when it may appear slow and inadequate. We must not drive the South Africans into turning their backs on the world. We need to recognise the immensity and complexity of the problems they face. We must encourage progress in working out solutions to those problems.
The heart of the problem in Southern Africa in the immediate future will be Rhodesia. That is so for two reasons. The first is that if it can be given peace Rhodesia stands at the threshold of resumed economic growth and prosperity. That can be of great benefit to its neighbours, some of whom have been less favoured by nature and by circumstances. Rhodesia can feed others as well as itself. Greater prosperity in the region can bring greater stability and can reduce the tensions on which terrorism feeds and from which it profits.
The second reason is that [u]it is vital to the future of Southern Africa that the democratic process should be seen to succeed and that terrorism should be seen to fail.[/u] Whatever further progress remains to be achieved, the plain fact is that Zimbabwe-Rhodesia has moved far along the road, by means of elections, towards building up a democratic society founded on racial partnership. This achievement must not be thrown away or discarded in favour of the rule of force. I look forward to the consultations in Lusaka, believing that they can help us in our task of creat- 630 ing an independent Rhodesia—a Rhodesia that will win that widespread acceptance from peoples of good will that is so important for its future.[/i]
I would like you to tell me which part of that amounts to Thatcher supporting apartheid?
Why do you folk engage with this?
Of course the point being made is tenuous to the point of BS - ninfan is making it so this is a given.
He is many things [ mainly tragic things online] but he is not a moron and he knows the truth here
he would type any old shit to enrage a snowflake and still you respond
Like moths drawn to a flame you continue to feed the troll
I see Jezza hs turned his hand to captaining ferries now 🙂
Labour's latest "big policy" more bank holidays, what a joke
Just out of interest Jamba, which tory policies do you think are a good idea as you've made it clear you're no Corbyn fan? What is it about May that gets your vote?
I think he loves the spying and removal of privacy laws. The hard brexit and her big anti immigration stance that allowed heaps of migrants into the UK from outside the eu all on visa's 😉
Like most people we can all admire her faultless record and incredible ability to deliver a policy.
A major policy announcement this morning - Work Less With Labour.
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They will save Venuzuelan queuing for the glorious second term of Comrade Jeremey, alongside inappropriate voting:
[url= http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32349473 ]The surreal nature of queing in Venuzuela[/url]
"faultless record and incredible ability to deliver a policy."
I'd like to vote for a party with a faultless record and incredible ability to deliver. Which UK party would you recommend.
I guess you spotted the sarcasm her record as home secretary was awful. It's not inspiring in any way.
I'm wondering if oob and thm (where [b]is[/b] he, btw?) are in any way connected?
The sarcasm and unpleasantness appear very similar.
Maybe that's just how Tories behave these days?
There doesn't seem to be one of them on the forum with any manners.
Maybe that's just how Tories behave these days?
These days? Tories are selfish, have no empathy and only care about themselves and their god given right to be better off than others.
Not all of them, obviously, but this place is toxic atm.
Maybe it was always the case and I'm just getting old.
@cranberry ...Would you advocate working 12 hours days?
Are you aware that the UK is internationally known for it's poor work efficiency?
E.g What the UK outputs in five days , France does in three and a half days.
So they work less and are just as efficient.
So work less under Labour is not necessarily a bad thing if you define what that statement actually means. 😀
Are you aware that the UK is internationally known for it's poor work efficiency?
Yes, paying people not to work would not help that, Labour seem to be digging deep to fight for the lazy vote.
I hope that those voters have some one to help them get to the polling station on election day - everyone knows that they don't have their own cars.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-corbyn-copeland-defeat-shami-chakrabarti-storm-doris-media-disunity-a7600101.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-corbyn-copeland-defeat-shami-chakrabarti-storm-doris-media-disunity-a7600101.html[/url]
@cranberyy..Your right . Giving money to people to allow them to live when they cannot work is just daft. I mean, just because they're disabled doesn't mean anything. They really must try harder mustn't those lazy ****elss disabled people.. 🙄
What's the unemployment rate Cranberry? Is it massive which would indicate people are comfortable living off benefits?
You managing some evidence base for your claims yet?
I'd love one of the political parties to give a true unfudged figure of the actual unemployment rate of able bodied /minded adults, then maybe we could deal with it in a grown up fashion without finger pointing and name calling
Yes, paying people not to work would not help that, Labour seem to be digging deep to fight for the lazy vote.
Can you provide one example from this entire forum of someone who agrees that paying lazy bastards not to work is a good idea?
Or maybe you will find an awful lot of personal experience that reflects the fact that the current benefit changes are harming those without a choice?
Just another provocative, nonsensical statement, designed to provoke a kneejerk reaction instead of debate.
Hang on, was the policy only more bank holidays for disabled people, or did you invent the whole disabled thing, Edenvalleyboy ?
A thoroughly depressing, but no doubt accurate piece in today's Observer by Nick Cohen:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/22/dissent-dealt-with-savagely-by-far-left?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other ]If labour crashes, don't expect the hard left to bow out[/url]
It's exactly what I think will happen. Corbyn will preside over an electoral catastrophe, but then citing his 'mandate from the membership' as his justification for staying on as 'leader'.
This delivering what will effectively be a single party state, and an unfettered ultra right wing Tory party unopposed rule.
The only question really is what will emerge from the wreckage. Because however few labour MPs are left will have todo something a lot different from the pathetic, self-indulgent silence and inaction of the last 12 months.
We're going to need an effective opposition more than ever. And right now, it looks like that's the very last thing we're going to get!
Probably the only chance for a moderate, electable Labour is for all the moderates to walk away and create a new party, which would have to compete for its political space with the [s]Liberal[/s] Democrats.
Thus far, no one has shown the bottle to do it, but catastrophe and a continued grip on power by the hard left membership of the party might help the moderates find some courage.
Binners - would the "ultra right wing" conservative party be the one that has just stolen a Miliband policy ?
What they say they'll do now, and what they'll actually do once they've got a whacking great majority may not have an awful lot in common
"It's exactly what I think will happen. Corbyn will preside over an electoral catastrophe, but then citing his 'mandate from the membership' as his justification for staying on as 'leader'."
This.
He's been elected to get rid of the centrist MPs and turn the Labour Party back into a proper Socialist party. There's no reason losing an election would change that.
If he resigns his private army of protesters will turn on him, he's stuck.
And that just shows how far to the Right politics has shifted since 1997, Cranbery
Binners - would the "ultra right wing" conservative party be the one that has just stolen a Miliband policy ?
One policy?
They are pushing things out further right, some of the moderates are being drowned out.
"And that just shows how far to the Right politics has shifted since 1997, Cranbery"
Since 1997 both main parties seems to me to be fighting over the centre where the votes are.
Corbyn's walked away from the centre but the Tories are going to, and have plonked themselves in the centre ground.
Corbyn's walked away from the centre but the Tories are going to, and have plonked themselves in the centre ground.
The centre has moved a little then.
Exactly. Millibands Labour took the old Liberal ground, Liberal edged towards conservatism...
And its laughable that Corbyn is described has "Hard Left"
Labour are about level with the Greens IMH, and Corbyn is espousing some our (Green Party)best policies
"The centre has moved a little then."
We're in danger of getting to the futile and impossible task of defining left and right.
Is Hitler the furthest right you can be and Stalin the furthest left? If so is May equidistant between them? Is Corbyn closer to Stalin than May?
Is desire to be in the EU left wing or right wing?
I think we just end up with Left/Right meaning nothing.
Hitler was more centrist if i recall...
We have a lot of new, younger members.
I've met a few and not one of them would recognise old school dogma if it bit them on their arses.
I see the obsession with the 'hard left' is till alive and kicking. I'm beginning to think that these silly predictions of a one party Tory state by the likes of Cohen and Toynbee are actually just their own secret fantasies. If they put a fraction of effort into promoting labour's policies as they do fantasising about communist plots things might be a bit different.
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outofbreath - MemberCorbyn's walked away from the centre but the Tories are going to, and have plonked themselves in the centre ground.
Yep, that's the myth. The idea that May's tories are centrist is just laughable.
The argument that parties should all be in the centre ground fighting for it does have strategic merit but there's an alternative. What you do is, you do what you want, and then you get your mates to tell everyone how you're in the centre. Sadly it seems to be more effective than actually being in the centre.
Or, hows about engaging the 34% of registered voters who felt so disenfranchised they didnt bother to vote?
I) You need twice as many of them compared with turning the swing opposition voters
Ii) the fact that they don't already vote is an indicator of how difficult they are to engage
Iii) in adopting policies that attracting one of them, you run the risk of stirring up greater motivation to vote in the opposition leaning non-voters (making it so you now need three times as many)
I'm looking forward to my extra holidays once Corbyns in power, I knew the guy would come up with the right policy.
I'm looking forward to my extra holidays once Corbyns in power,
Two of them are in March, another one in November. What use is that?
Couldn't he come up with another three in May, June and July?
Happy Keir Hardie day, perhaps, or George Orwell day...
More likely to be Hamas Day, etc
mt - Member
I'm looking forward to my extra holidays once Corbyns in power, I knew the guy would come up with the right policy.
I realise your post may be tongue in cheek, but has Corbyn said a four day increase in holiday entitlement to coincide with the four extra bank holidays, or just the latter? If just the latter then frankly some employees will just see a reduction in their number of free choice days...
I think we'll get Intifada Day on 8th December and 28th July Comrade Chavez Day, on the latter there will be a rumour that the local supermarket has a delivery of toilet paper, so there'll be a carnival atmosphere in the queue.
Ah, halcyon days
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(I actually used to have an unused roll of this, taken home from work, probably a collectors item now)
(I actually used to have an unused roll of this, taken home from work, probably a collectors item now)
There's probably 10 million rolls still at Longtown
you get your mates to tell everyone how you're in the centre
You're saying the fight for the centre ground over the last 20 years was all fake news? When did the media become a reliable reported of facts in your view? 2017 or earlier?
outofbreath - MemberYou're saying the fight for the centre ground over the last 20 years was all fake news?
Nope, nor did I say anything you could realistically have misconstrued that way.
Corbyn's walked away from the centre but the Tories are going to, and have plonked themselves in the centre ground.
you do what you want, and then you get your mates to tell everyone how you're in the centre. Sadly it seems to be more effective than actually being in the centre.
You're saying the fight for the centre ground over the last 20 years was all fake news?
Obviously not.
Obviously! 😀
😐
Internet comment etiquette #347: when pretending someone's said something they didn't, it's considered poor form to include a quote which shows that they didn't say what you're pretending.
Internet comment etiquette #347: when pretending someone's said something they didn't, it's considered poor form to include a quote which shows that they didn't say what you're pretending.
You said "mates" are telling everyone the partys have been aiming for the centre ground the centre ground when really they're not.
If mates doesn't mean 'media', what does it mean?
What are you dribbling on about? Yes it meant media. And?
Haven't seen the Marr interview yet but it sounds like a total car crash. Never mind we're all getting a few more days off, less pesky work eh.
I thought the Corbyn holidays were the saints day so as to bring the UK and Ireland together in a common celebration of some sort (a piss up).
Labour are behind on all these issues, even on the NHS they are basically tied. Certainly in my view Labour would be a catastrophe for the NHS.
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Certainly in my view Labour would be a catastrophe for the NHS.
If you ever agree with something Labour do or say I'll expect these fella's to come riding through town
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Labour would be a catastrophe for the NHS
Yes, clearly much safer in the hands of a tory government who would get rid of it tomorrow if they could get away with it.
4 new bank holidays is a ridiculous idea that smacks of spin doctors and a total misunderstanding of scottish politics.
We currently have the lowest number of public holidays in the G20 and in the EU.
Adding 4 takes us to the G20 average.
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(ignore the green - that's Ireland)
[img] http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/3049968/original/?width=630&version=3049968 [/img]
Having said that - I can't say it was on my list of manifesto hopes.
But I guess it will generate headlines.
and a total misunderstanding of scottish politics.
Hate to break it to you but Scotland is a small number of seats almost certain to remain SNP and a fraction of the population of the UK. Perhaps it's not all about you lot 😉
Again progressive countries seem to have broken the link between attendance and productivity.
Is he trying to shoot himself in the foot (ref: Trident)? Everyone knows he's against it yet the Labour Party voted they would be for it. So rather, when questioned, take a clear position he does the usual political BS of fudging an answer. However fudging an answer where you know the majority voters might not like the real answer is one thing but fudging something weeks before a general election that your party has committed to just gives everyone the impression they can't trust a word you say. Granted, trusting politicians is a fools game but trusting a politician who's own party don't trust him?!
Mikesmith - the point being it would appear on the surface a ploy to attract nationalists by making the patron saints day a public holiday
the problem for him is that I have not heard any clamouring for making St Andrews day a public holiday ie its not something seen as important up here and its the antics of labour in Scotland that have destroyed their vote up here and thats what is needed to be addressed - the "bain principle" and the continual outright lies from scottish labour
Fuzzy he is just incompetant. He well knows his stance is contrary to Labour Policy even with him as leader but he cannot help himself. He's spent his whole career voting against Labour Policy.
The wheels are coming off and the Tories haven't even started attacking him yet. He has self destructed on the Andrew Marr show.
If you ever agree with something Labour do or say I'll expect these fella's to come riding through town
Yes, I don't like to needlessly criticise but he hardly every gives any credit at all to other possibilities. Extracting an article from a paper that despises the fumes of a Labour government is hardly adding anything really.
We currently have the lowest number of public holidays in the G20 and in the EU.
Adding 4 takes us to the G20 average.
Workhouse UK.
It's insane how the working class have been convinced working more and having less is somehow a medal of honour.
Jeez, who doesn't want a better world?
He's spent his whole career voting against Labour Policy.
Haven't you heard? Politicians change their mind.
Which as a pretty strong anti-Tory individual I accept the PM can do a U-turn on the election promise.
Lowest number of national holidays, yet biggest productivity gap.....
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Not the only solution, better management, improve on UKs woeful training record and poor overall education etc.
Also a brilliant way unite the 4 parts of the UK when our current government seems absolutely intent on driving them further apart
Lowest number of national holidays, but isn't our standard holiday allowance quite good?
Most of us get 4/5 weeks plus the bank hols. In the states they get three weeks, don't they?
outofbreath - Member
Lowest number of national holidays, but isn't our standard holiday allowance quite good?
Compared to the USA, EVERYONES holiday allowance is good !