Jeremy Corbyn

aren't they the austerity party?

You seem to think these two are mutually exclusive- they are not- One could easily increase the deficit and reduce spending- indeed its what they are doing. Given that, oh economic expert, why do you trot out this post truth "point" all the time?

Let's see if he can now tolerate other MPs opinions which differ from his, and actually stick to party policy... Alan Johnson is interesting on how the apparatchiks around JC colluded in stopping JC from really campaigning against Bredit, despite remain being the party policy.

Politics is the art of the possible, not the art of having the party with the perfect policy yet is unelectable.

ee if he can now tolerate other MPs opinions

The real issue is whether they can tolerate that he is the leader and he has a mandate. To make it out like he has created this situation is a false narrative.> They always opposed him including campaigning against him whilst in the shadow cabinet- no leader can tolerate that sort of opinion.

They always opposed him including campaigning against him whilst in the shadow cabinet-

So perhaps they should have made it clear they couldn't work with him and given him the chance to resign - I dunno, perhaps with a vote of no confidence....

...oh wait.

or perhaps they should have realised that they alone cannot dictate to the party who is leader- one would have assume they had read the constitution.
Having tried the coup they have now been told again they are out of kilter with the party. Again blaming him for this or them attempting unconstitutional measures to usurp him - which apparently you think a leader should tolerate- He is still not the cause of the acrimony their unwillingness to respect the parties wishes is the cause

Forgive me i thought it was debate not you just twisting the facts to blame him for their actions.

All leaders in all parties have to deal with a diversity of opinions amongst their MPs. And whilst the party writes policy (which JC hasn't been good at sticking to himself) in the British system we the electors technically vote for the person the MP is, not the party. We don't have a PR type party list system. And the idea that all MPs can be micromanaged by their constituency party is silly. Deselection is the democratic way to deal with that, and we saw how well that worked in making labour electable in the 80s.

This does lead to problems, as with Cameron triggering a referendum to assuage dissenters in his own party. But JC does need to show he can be pragmatic rather than dogmatic, if only to appear electable and able to deal with the whole art of compromise which comes with power.

He does have to be pragmatic but if folk take away their toys and say no i wont work with you or for you then how on earth does he show that and how exactly do you think a leader shoudl deal with such levels of dissent after having just been voted leader for the second time

Essentially he is the boss now and if the PLP wont listen and act as they should then they are the ones making the truble

they party has spoken AGAIN and they really lead to listen.

Under Corbyn everyone will be poorer but it will be a more equal society when anyone with a good business idea sets up elsewhere and anyone with money just moves it offshore or simply leaves

You pass this off as fact. It's not.

If you think the status quo is just and the spiral out of EU is the right decision, fine, I can live with your opinion. But don't write off what no one can prove just yet it undermines the debate.

I run a business and the only thing that makes me want to leave is the general trend towards the mean spirited world that the Tories have sewn. And not the other way around.

[img] [/img]

Start with little steps

1. Form a functioning shadow cabinet
2. Lead 1 effectively
3. Review the above in 12 months

Oh, and dont forget - governments represent us, not the other way around, so its their interests that really matter not this incessant internal BS

Chances of those 3 things happening

1. slim to non-existent
2. Ha ha haaaaaaaaa... seriously?
3. We can probably dispense with that. See above.

or perhaps they should have realised that they alone cannot dictate to the party who is leader- one would have assume they had read the constitution.
Having tried the coup they have now been told again they are out of kilter with the party. Again blaming him for this or them attempting unconstitutional measures to usurp him - which apparently you think a leader should tolerate- He is still not the cause of the acrimony their unwillingness to respect the parties wishes is the cause

Forgive me i thought it was debate not you just twisting the facts to blame him for their actions.

You've used the word blame a few times. Is blame important in this?

Quickest way to solve this problem is for Corbyn to go and be replaced by someone the MPs can work with and who swing voters in marginals will vote for. Arguing about who's to blame for the problem isn't going to make it go away.

outofbreath - Member

You've used the word blame a few times. Is blame important in this?

Well, yes. If you want to avoid the same thing happening again, sometimes you do have to apportion blame where it belongs and especially know who the architects of a problem were.

(if you prefer, you can say "culpable" or "responsible" to avoid the evocative words blame or fault, but it amounts to the same thing)

Blame? That probably lies with the bloke who's ill-thought-through rule change led to Labour Party policy being written in the student union...

[img] [/img]

Well if we must discuss blame:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/who-are-the-morons-who-nominated-jeremy-corbyn-for-the-labour-leadership-contest-10406527.html

Blame? That probably lies with the bloke who's ill-thought-through rule change led to Labour Party policy being written in the student union...

That's unfair. Nominations by MPs was the safeguard. It was impossible to predict a situation where MPs would nominate a candidate such as JC. The same thing could happen in the Tory party - but their MPs had the sense not to nominate Boris to 'broaden the debate'.

The people who misunderstood why Labour lost the last election?

Blame? That probably lies with the bloke who's ill-thought-through rule change led to Labour Party policy being written in the student union...

I presume you know that Ed Miliband brought in the rule change as a result of Blairite pressure to reduce the influence of the unions and despite strong opposition from the left of the party? If we're doing the blame game then the blairites might want to look closer to home.

You've used the word blame a few times. Is blame important in this?

Quickest way to solve this problem is for Corbyn to go and be replaced by someone the MPs can work with and who swing voters in marginals will vote for.

Arguing about who's to blame for the problem isn't going to make it go away

Do you ever address what I say or do you just pick one word and then say what you think again?

If we're doing the blame game then the blairites might want to look closer to home.

There is no place for that sort of posting on this thread

Why do you think the solution is his resignation?

Because the MPs have no mechanism to oust him, they've tried everything.

why do you think they have the right to oust him and oppose the wishes of the party membership?

Because the MPs have no mechanism to oust him, they've tried everything.

why do you think they have the right to oust him

?

They weren't elected by the party membership.

MPs do have a mechanism to oust him- democracy. Put forward a credible candidate and work to convince the electorate that they're the right choice. But they don't seem to have thought of that.

They weren't elected by the party membership.

Don't be daft. They chose to stand as labour candidates, and that is mostly why they won. They could have chosen to stand as independents or for another party. They didn't, because they knew they'd have a better chance of winning as labour candidates. Being a labour candidate and MP comes with some responsibilities, like respecting the party's rules and constitution, as well as it's history and principles. They can't disown the rules of the party just because they don't like the leader. If they feel they can no longer represent the labour party as MPs, they should resign the whip, and their seats and stand as independents in a new election. It's pretty simple.

should resign the whip, and their seats and stand as independents in a new election

That's what I would hope they will do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37462359

My point of view is that at this time in the election cycle is the perfect time for this. If the PLP and Corbyn sort it out now then fine...if not then as has been said the labour party is a spent force.

Lifer, I agree with you in that it's early days in Parliamentary term and I don't agree with McDonnell that there will be an early eelction. What really matters is in what shape are Labour and the other parties a year or so before May 2020.

I listened to the Kusenberg / Corbyn interview - not much new really, seems clear there will be an NEC clearout and compulspry reselection / deselection of MPs.

I have a feeling Livingstone will be back too - he made a piece for the BBC 's This Week on Corbyn. I would not be surprised if he stood in one of deselected safe seats.

Conference will be interesting, I expect a material lurch left and more Stalinist manouvers to purge Corbyn's detractors

big_n_daft - Member

http://philwoodfordsseachange.blogspot.co.uk

Much has been made of the poor campaigns of Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham and Liz Kendall last year. These mainstream politicians were criticised for offering ‘more of the same’ or ‘Tory Lite’. The [u]reality[/u] is that they provided intelligent and nuanced responses to the challenges of the modern world.

That's not the reality I saw! Corbyn had all the ideas and yes policies, the others had zilch.

He does have to be pragmatic but if folk take away their toys and say no i wont work with you or for you then how on earth does he show that and how exactly do you think a leader shoudl deal with such levels of dissent after having just been voted leader for the second time

Essentially he is the boss now and if the PLP wont listen and act as they should then they are the ones making the truble

they party has spoken AGAIN and they really lead to listen.

Yes but every MP has a full time job representing their constituents and wants to balance their family life as well. It's going to be hard for JC to get any traction blaming MP's who use that argument that don't tour the tv and radio studio's. Have you not noticed that most of the open dissenters have gone quiet nationally and seem to be very constituency focused?

The "sorry Jeremy my marriage is under strain and I have a massive local campaign on something" line is going to get very familiar

?

Do you ever address what I say or do you just pick one word and then say what you think again?

Any chance of an answer?

"Yes but every MP has a full time job representing their constituents and wants to balance their family life as well. It's going to be hard for JC to get any traction blaming MP's who use that argument that don't tour the tv and radio studio's. Have you not noticed that most of the open dissenters have gone quiet nationally and seem to be very constituency focused?"

There's a term for the 'focus on constituencies effect', can't recall what it is.

In a party with no hope of power where reselection is likely there are few reasons to take a shadow post and every reason to work hard in the constituency/CLP.

Proximity Alert!

The Dear Leader is on Marr this morning.
On the sofa: girl fight!

Emma Rees (Momental) vs Isobel (phwoar) Hardman (Spectator).

Plus BoJo and Bradlo Wiggo singing the Paul Weller thong book... 😀

Theresa May will probably go for a GE next year now, thus ensuring another five years of Tory government. Well done, Labour - you've just ensured more of the same for the foreseeable future. Talk about not being able to see past the end of your own nose.

Theresa May will probably go for a GE next year now

I thought that fixed term parliaments had fixed that?

I like Corbyn. I'd like to see a Corbyn government. I'm sick of soundbytes from multi millionaires who mismanage our economy but seem to get richer.

"I thought that fixed term parliaments had fixed that?"

The law can be changed and she has the excuse that she needs her own mandate.

SNP and Labour can hardly vote against ending the Tory Govt even if they think they'd be better off with more time to sort themselves out.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34621440 ]The appalling state of the economy being mismanaged by multimillionaires[/url]

Obviously it would be just perfect if it was being run by politicians with no experience of finance but thorough grounding in socialist theory...

Corbyn may be on Marr, but the man who tells him what to do is on Pinaars Politics at 10.

So it doesn't matter what warm cooing noises Jezza makes, in the real world it'll be straight back to threats and intimidation. MacDonnel always tries to sound jovial at the start of interviews, then after a couple of questions he gets tetchy, then openly irritated that he's being questioned at all, and by the end sounds like a mafia enforcer, suggesting that that you do as you're told, as "we wouldn't want anyone to have any accidents now, would we..."

I was one of the many people who paid their £25 to vote in the Labour Party leadership elections. I joined specifically to vote against JC.

Why? (or rather Why I voted for Owen Smith)
- he has voted against the Labour Party policies more times than any other Labour MP. In fact more times than some Conservative MPs
- he appears to be 'controlled' by his staff
- It took years to the Tories to move the centre ground to the right, he is not going to be able to change that in one single election. Changes take time.
- He has failed to compromise with the vast majority of the Labour MPs. Government is about compromise, the art of what is possible. If he can't work with a bunch of people who on his side, how is going to function with people who are on the 'other' side
- Labour is Scotland is stuffed. The SNP are the 'left' in Scotalnd, JC's vision of the 'left' has been rejected by Scottish Labour - why? It appears that he is not able to work with Scottish Labour
- Winning the leadership is one thing, being able to sell his vision to the NEC to create the policies and then to the electorate is another totally. Milliband was a disaster (choose the wrong one), but JC is just a lurch into the dark
- His main role (as far as the electorate is concerned) is to be the leader of the opposition and challenge the government. Hold it responsible for its actions. We are in the situation where the failed policy of grammar schools is going to be re-introduced and the strongest opposition to it looks like it is going to come from inside the Tories.
- He is NOT a leader. Leaders inspire, leaders have empathy, leaders work with people not against them.

Again these are my reasons, and nothing that has happened has lead me to be more confident for the Labour party. I remember the bad old days of Foot. The decades spent on infighting and getting the party into a state where the electorate thought that they could trust them. The decades spent cleaning out the hard left, getting policies that reflected a modern society, leaders that large segments of the population wanted.

And now a backward step. Labour was never hard left, its aim was to make the life of working people better. As such it was left of centre, since it represented social values that was just more than model proposed by capitalism. It's aim was make more people middle class, better education, health, jobs and job security. To help those who were being forgotten. Not a class war on the 'rich' or teh 'privileged'.

I'm sad, I'd hoped that after Milliband we could look forward to better Labour Party looking to sell its vision to the country. Inside we end up with internal warfare that looks like it will have no end.

The main noise so far is a rather distracting cold. Need a microphone adjustment - where's Diane when you need her?

Poor interview really, from both Marr and Corbyn. Should have gone for a walk instead!

I'm sad, I'd hoped that after Milliband

Don't worry,there'll be another one arriving soon.

I doubt it. The problem now is that the Labour Party goes into a death spiral. As the McDonnells and McKluskies cement their grip, and the policies get further from the centre, and further into lefty cloud cuckoo land, then moderate voices just leave in exasperation. Or, at best, keep their heads down until Jeremy leads the party to its inevitable electoral Armageddon

And the centrist rump of the UK electorate goes with them, shaking their heads in disbelief at what the hell happened to a Labour Party that was even vaguely electorally appealing

Should have gone for a walk instead!

I always watch on catch-up, Sunday evening viewing.

@sadmadalan, thanks for posting always good to have some fresh participation

IMO there will be no early election, May has said so (credibility issue if she changes her mind), risk factor of Labour dissarray versus mid A50/Brexit negotiations creating an unknown imo is a risk May will not take. Again IMO Brexit will move ahead positively and Europe will have a major crises (bigger than 2008/9) in next couple of years making UK Brexit decsion look golden. Tories have a majority. Labour still detriorating so wait till 2020. Everythig points that way

He is NOT a leader. Leaders inspire, leaders have empathy

See, this is what is frustrating about all this is that people are flying off the handle with their own ideas without really thinking things through.

You say he doesn't inspire - and yet the party is the biggest in Europe. You say he has no empathy and yet he has a career of campaigning for the oppressed and downtrodden.

I'm not saying you should agree with him and I am not campaigning for him, but people need to really pay attention to what he is saying, not what others are saying about him.

she wont call the election till just before she has to say what the EU deal is IMHO
SO she might in 18 months time but not just yet as what is the point.

"people need to really pay attention to what he is saying,"

Not sure that helps him, he says he would spend £500bn in a one-er if he got power.

You say he has no empathy and yet he has a career of campaigning for the oppressed and downtrodden

You missed the point. Campaigning for the oppressed and downtrodden is not empathy, that is his job. Failing to work with virtually all of the Labour MPs shows a lack of empathy. He has failed to understand their concerns and work with them.

there's some really bad losers here.. moaning and whingeing won't change the reality guys

your time is over, acceptance is the only way forward for you now

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@yunki facts, actions/results count for more than words

Third place in Scotland
EU Referendum and the non-campaign
60 unfilled Shadow Cabinet Posts
80% MPs vote no confidence
96% Jewish Labour members vote for Smith
Unelected Lord Chakrabati to be Justice Secretary

I wonder a year from now how many of those new members will renew and pay another £25 ?

Source for the 96% of Jewish members?

I wonder a year from now how many of those new members will renew and pay another £25 ?

I think it's Jamby's magic vote counting tech that provides all the stats along with the reasons why and the emotional state and pulse at time of voting...

yunki - Member
there's some really bad losers here.. moaning and whingeing won't change the reality guys

your time is over, acceptance is the only way forward for you now

Problem comes when they leave with funding and are elected as a collective leaving Jezza and Diaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnneeeeeee Abbot as the Labour party.

£500bn eh? What on? Duck houses?

Oh what's this I read? Borrowing to invest in public infrastructure? The evil scumbag! They should just hand it to commercially failed banks instead like the last government of course.

Jambers.

Just out of interest, do you consider yourself an extremist?

They should just hand it to commercially failed banks instead like the last government of course.

😯

Quite. If a bank is failing, let it fail. Don't turn it into a zombie company leaching hard-earned cash from the taxpayer.

Equally, get the public purse on the right side of debt and spend what can be afforded, making the rest an attractive proposition for private finance.

500bn is not an "investment". It's just chucking borrowed cash that you haven't a hope in hell of paying back, at a problem that won't generate any return other than possibly ghost jobs and white elephants.

Like I said, Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

We need more Capitalism, not less.

your mum needs more capitalism

Sound reasoning there and admirable use of carefully constructed Socialist dialectical engagement.

Are you fifteen?

(My mother died in 1954, so I doubt she'd find much use for it.)

is your mum fifteen?

So Corbs has magnanimously said that 'most MP's will not face mandatory re-selection'. Well so much for uniting and reaching out eh?

I think this is the clearest sign yet about how they really aren't serious about forming a government.

The boundary changes are a huge threat to the labour party, and its chances of ever winning an overall majority at a general election.

But rather than being viewed as such, the front bench of the labour party sees it instead as an opportunity to rid itself of some uncomfortable critics within the party, and a chance to parachute its yes men in instead, to support the Glorious Leader

This more than anything yet, illustrates the priorities of Corbyn and his team. And winning the net general election looks like its taking a distant second place to propping up the Cult of the Glorious Leader, whatever the electoral cost.

They're going to need an awful lot of placards to wave for the next 20 years. After yesterday the labour party is finished as a serious political force. It seems that those now in charge now aren't really particularly concerned about that, so long as they get to carry on with their socialist revolution/virtue-signalling protest movement

yunki - Member
is your mum fifteen?

Sorry, slow edit. No, she's not 15. She died in 1954 but thanks for asking.

😐

Mr Woppit - Member
The appalling state of the economy being mismanaged by multimillionaires

Obviously it would be just perfect if it was being run by politicians with no experience of finance but thorough grounding in socialist theory

So you and even the BBC agree with me on almost a decade of wage stagnation and near zero economic growth since 2008.
Growth is only just now around the pre finial crisis/ crash levels.

500bn is not an "investment". It's just chucking borrowed cash that you haven't a hope in hell of paying back, at a problem that won't generate any return other than possibly ghost jobs and white elephants

Expert in economics are you?

I think this is the clearest sign yet about how they really aren't serious about forming a government.

That is utterly ludicrous. Corbyn and his team have far more credibility thab you on this thread!

That is utterly ludicrous. Corbyn and his team have far more credibility thab you on this thread!

Jeremy Corbyn has vowed to give more say over policy-making to grass-roots Labour supporters to help build a "more equal and decent society".

Source for the 96% of Jewish members?

Lifer, this thread and link posted by another STWer, sounds like you missed it

@Rusty centre ground and ex-Labour voter

Investment / anti-austerity

This is exactly the platofrm Hollande was elected on, that and tax the rich (75% rate on those earning €1m+)

What happened in France would imo be mirrored in the UK

Investment = spending more money which Hollande did with no noticable impact, in fact economy got worse. Tax rise was thrown out by the courts as illegal and the replacement 66% tax paid by employers (fooballers exlcuded 😯 ) was counterproductive and abandonned after 2 years.

Having tried the anti-austerity spend more Hollande found he ran into a debt limit imposed by the eurozone so is now following the same financial prudence policies as is everyone else.

Now Labour may feel as being outside the euro means we can do as we like but we cannot, the markets will only lend if they think the government is fiscally sound, a Marxist as Chancellor ? Labour's investment will in reality be spending borrowed money for little or no impact, simply digging a deeper hole for future generations

Expert in economics are you?

Care to argue the point instead of inserting a Straw Man?

We need more Capitalism, not less.

we need more companies with an 'ownership' aspect, like John Lewis/Waitrose, or even more 'shared' ownership.

Make sure that people who want to work their nuts off get rewarded and those that want to cruise along get fairly paid, and those that slack/take the michael get thrown on the scrapheap 🙂

The current system is not working - either companies like Amazon/Sports Direct/etc getting away with screwing workers over as much as possible, or companies and beligerent unions like RMT in a constant war zone.

I think you could probably even have less workers rights in such a company and please the tories. Less unions - a big win 🙂

Everyone in the company has to pull their weight or they are letting their direct colleagues down.

A breakaway centrist brexit-lite (leave EU but remain part of EEC and retain freedom of movement) party could really clean up right now

in fact I reckon they could steal a significant number of MP's from both parties

Is the government able to play with benefits if we remain part of the EEC, like that thing Cameron was tring to get about no benefits for 4 years.

In reality such a control would make very little economic difference but it would placate a lot of brexiters, so you could more easily swing that deal of remaining a member of the EEC.

Is the government able to play with benefits if we remain part of the EEC, like that thing Cameron was tring to get about no benefits for 4 years.

"A breakaway centrist brexit-lite (leave EU but remain part of EEC and retain freedom of movement) party could really clean up right now"

Yeahbbutt the Tory Party can position themselves on that ground if required.

I think the voters Labour are walking away from will just spread themselves harmlessly around the plethora of smaller parties.

We need more Capitalism, not less.

I presume you mean that all those companies who rely on the state subsidising the terrible wages they pay with in-work benefits should have those subsidies removed and be forced to pay a wage which their workers can afford to live on? I also assume you mean all these companies should pay their tax like everyone else does. Once you do this you'll have a level playing field where businesses can compete with each other based on their merits rather than the market being skewed by state support and intervention. We need more of that type of capitalism, rather than the corporatist, monopolist, fraudulent and kleptocratic version of it which we have now.

If Corbyn's policiy is to borrow £500bn at historically low interest rates rather than pfis then ****ing bring it on!

Of course we need more and better capitalism*. But its not just capital that we need to allocate and manage better, its the other factors of production too - we have a lamentable productivity record. This is why wages are depressed not because of any particular party. Introducing band-aids like MLW etc do not address the core issues merely the results.

* and as the subject of this whole thread has shown, significantly less involvement of the state.

At least old Jezza hesitated on corporation tax today. He would restore back to 20% of the Tories cut it, and then reluctantlyl admitted he might out it up a bit more too. Conviction eh?

Is the government able to play with benefits if we remain part of the EEC, like that thing Cameron was tring to get about no benefits for 4 years.

Don't see why not as other European countries have different benefit rules to the UK.

If that is true then why not just pile in and do that, just be in the EAA, keep passporting, reduce the 'benefits draw' and maybe a few other things to make the UK less of a magnet.

reduce the 'benefits draw'

and maybe a few other things to make the UK less of a magnet.

How generous are our benefits in comparison to other EU countries?

Figures from Eurostat suggest the UK spends about the same as the EU average on unemployment and disability-related benefits, although it is behind the larger economies. The UK spends 12% less a head than France and 19% less than Germany, but almost twice as much as the Czech Republic.

Jambalaya
@Rusty centre ground and ex-Labour voter

Hmmmm.

As I said a year ago I wish to see the hard left agenda removed from mainstream British politics and Corbyn and Momentum are very much on course to deliver that.

I take it a moderate centrist such as yourself feels the same about the 'hard' right?