Jeremy Corbyn

Hopefully - Buckshee Proper Labour.

He does seem like a proper lefty, with more than a hint of sandals... Is it too late to join labour so I can vote for him?

You don't have to join the Labour Party to vote in leadership elections, just hand over 3 quid and anyone can vote. I kid you not.

I'm a big fan. I recently watched the documentary/film 'We are Many' and he made a great impression in that, I thought.

Well he has my first preference not sure who will be my 2nd and 3rd.

Yeah, but is he a decent bloke ? apparently andy burnhams a decent bloke, we need more decent blokes !

Anyone know what caused him to lose it in that interview the other night - Krishnan Guru-Murthy on C4? Corbyn seems a pretty composed guy normally, but he completely saw his arse over some mildly provocative questioning on the middle east. Strange to see.

but is he a decent bloke ?

I think someone should ask him.

After all we know what sort of person Tony Blair was because he told us, quote : [i]"I think most people who have dealt with me, think I'm a pretty straight sort of guy, and I am."[/i] - Tony Blair, Nov. 1997

You don't have to join the Labour Party to vote in leadership elections, just hand over 3 quid and anyone can vote. I kid you not.

It is true.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11741861/How-you-can-help-Jeremy-Corbyn-win-and-destroy-the-Labour-Party.html

He seems to 'Homeo-meds' as they work for some people, so maybe a pinch of labour?

Interesting that the Telegraph sees him as a threat...

He seems to appeal to core labour party members, but doubt he'd appeal to the general populous. It's like the Tory party lurchng right took appeal to those that are firm supporters, Corbyn is a step left that appeals to CURRENT members but won't win new members.

I'm fearful none of the contenders are serious PM material. Wish Chaka hadn't dropped out. I think he would have been viable.

[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/watch-jeremy-corbyn-loses-his-temper-channel-4-news ]Corbs on Channel 4 News[/url]
Enjoyed this. Seemed to lose temper quickly but agreed with his gist!

Wish Chaka hadn't dropped out. I think he would have been viable.

I've not really been following too much but wouldn't he of taken the party to the right and tried to compete with the Tories on that front?

I reckon Ed lost partly because he didn't offer a real alternative. He wasn't properly left wing so lost votes on that and on the other stuff was too similar to the tories, so lost votes to them as well.

Imo a proper left wing leader should rejuvenate the party and offer a real alternative that a lot of voters want. It may even lead to a revival in Scotland.

It may. It may also lead to an utter disaster in England.

Heart says Corbyn. Socialist, honest and I admire him for having principles. Head says labour need a new Blair. (I know, I know). Chaka was viable as that.

Heart
Corby, Andy, yvy,Lizzie

Head
Oh dear.....yvy, Andy, Lizzy, corby

The Tories' wet dream candidate 🙂

And the SNP's worse nightmare.

Between them Tony Blair and Gordon Brown lost Labour 5 million votes in the 1997-2010 period, presumably this was because they were too leftwing ?

He does seem like a proper lefty, with more than a hint of sandals... Is it too late to join labour so I can vote for him?

Not at all- there are full instructions here for the concerned conservative voter 😉

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11741861/How-you-can-help-Jeremy-Corbyn-win-and-destroy-the-Labour-Party.html ]Clicky clicky![/url]

Interesting that the Telegraph sees him as a threat...

They really don't, you know.

I suspect if he is winning it will be due to conservative politicians and supporters paying three quid and voting for their preferred candidate.

Len McClusky's preferred candidate heading for victory again. He's got the golden touch. 🙂

Labour have really sorted out their voting system. Seems watertight! If it is non-Labour supporters signing up and voting for what they think is the 'least electable' of the four, then it must have been a difficult choice. 🙂

Nice sincere bloke, some rather silly ideas, would be a disaster at the next General Election.

Prime Minister Boris anyone?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-split-on-how-to-self-destruct-20150714100103

Risk factor for the tories in this

What the Tories want (need?) is for any of the 'king useless rabble to stay the distance

Risk with Corbyn is that he stays for two years, before they realise he's wearing Foots donkey jacket, dump him and David Miliband comes back on the scene into the election.

[i]Prime Minister Boris anyone?[/i]

Stretching the bounds of reality there, I don't think Boris is even in the running for the Labour party leadership?
😉

Risk with Corbyn is that he stays for two years, before they realise he's wearing Foots donkey jacket, dump him and David Miliband comes back on the scene into the election.

Yes, but the Labour party has a much greater number of nutters and extremists supporting it than the Conservatives. Once they get Corbyn in as leader they will fight viciously for him to stay in place. Any moderate, centrist leader following him will still be fighting his own party at the time of the next election.

I was trying to think of what the Conservative version of electing Corbyn would be - I'd guess it would be digging up and re-animating Enoch Powell.

I'm looking forward to receiving my vote- £3 well spent.

I thought he was quite good, then I saw this;

[img] [/img]

I now *really* hope he doesn't win - if he thinks homeopathy might work because it's got 'organic' things in it then he's not someone who should lead the country.

And the SNP's worse nightmare.

I don't know about that, the SNP would probably welcome a proper Labour Party which actually has some principles and is willing to act like an opposition to the Tories, instead of the useless bunch of abstainers they've got to work with at the moment.

In Scotland, it's all very entertaining that Labour are totally wiped out, but long-term it'd be good to have a proper Labour Party back here too. The current bunch of Scottish Labour are useless - the UK Labour Party call them the Special Branch, and not in a good way.

I liked Corbyn, until he announced he approved of homeopathic medicine.

Edit: Bingo.

It's an insult to Michael Foot to draw comparison between him and Corbyn.

I'm looking forward to receiving my vote- £3 well spent.

Dunno, I'd rather have 2 entries to that competition on ITV4

I liked Corbyn, until he announced he approved of homeopathic medicine.

Ahhh. What a plonker - it was looking good right up to the that. But we've had plenty of PMs that believe in [s]fairies at the bottom of the garden[/s] God before and that's no better.

Burnham would seem like a choice that's a good compromise between head and heart (even though a practising RC).

I have no idea who he is but if he looks like a **** he has no chance.
Labour need a good looking thug.

[quote=convert said]
Burnham would seem like a choice that's a good compromise between head and heart (even though a practising RC).

He went to the same faith school as Binners! 🙂

The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing. As has been proved in basically every election ever, the only way to win is to win over the centre, and really centre-right, ground.

Corbyn as leader will be as effective at reigning the Tories in as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock, i.e. not at all.

The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing. As has been proved in basically every election ever, the only way to win is to win over the centre, and really centre-right, ground.

I guess this is the fundamental behind different attitudes to political governance. What you are advocating is the compromise of your personal opinions and beliefs to appeal to centre ground voters. I guess this works if power is the most important reason for you to be in politics, and there is some truth to only being able to make a proper difference when in power. But personally I find that incredibly depressing. I want politicians of conviction that don't bend with the wind and stand up for what they truly believe in. I want politicians that only want power to alter the country to their vision. Politicians that turn themselves inside out to makes themselves sufficiently vanilla or worse still have little passion in the first place is a sad state of affairs.

Ahhh. What a plonker - it was looking good right up to the that. But we've had plenty of PMs that believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden God before and that's no better.

Yep Tony Blair decided God told him to restart the Crusades and look at the damage that did....

The homeopathy thing is stupid, but didn't our present health secretary say the same thing?

That's much more scary !

A socialist labour leader would-be great, except that the right ght wing press have already started monstering him before he's even elected, of course the Tories/right wing. Press/ paymasters are scared of him, they want to keep labour cheap and the plebs in their place!

The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing.

That's not the problem. The problem is that many people think it's ok for politicians and political parties to change their principles and beliefs to whatever will win them power. The point of democracy is to give the people a choice. If all the parties just agree with eachother in order to win power, then it's pointless and we might as well do away with elections and have a managerialist one party government like China.

But ^ that way, convert, you end up a long way from consensus politics as you have a "permanent" opposition with no clout. No influence on the political direction at all. Yes, all your conviction politicians and their supporters will sleep soundly at night because they just [i]know[/i] they're right, but they will have achieved nothing in the real world.

Labour are at their best, not necessarily when they own the centre right ground, but when everyone else [i]thinks it's possible[/i] they could make enough people believe in the centre left.

The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing.

Simply untrue. We know that when policies are anonymised, people as a whole are more left wing than their voting patterns might indicate. In any case, if Labour think that people will vote for them on a platform of being slightly less mean than the Tories, then they face oblivion.

A couple of questions for interest.

Why do people think Labour lost the last election ?
And why would having Corbyn as leader change that ?

cranberry - Member

They really don't, you know.

That must be why they've started the hatchet job so early? The tory press are a useful tool for Labour members- they should give the most consideration to the candidates that receive the most attacks, these are the people that a) have been identified as a threat and b) aren't tories in disguise. Electing anyone the Telegraph doesn't hate would be a terrible mistake.

IHN - Member

The problem with the left wingers in the Labour party is that they don't seem to realise that the country as whole is not left wing. As has been proved in basically every election ever, the only way to win is to win over the centre, and really centre-right, ground.

Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election, Blair came to the table knowing he'd already been dealt a winning hand. It fits the blairite creation myth to claim he made labour electable but it doesn't stand up to examination.

The last election shows that you can put forward a terrible leader, and run a disastrous campaign, allowing your enemies to set every agenda and playing the whole thing on their turf by their rules, while working hand in hand with your fantastically incompetent Scottish leader and losing the entire country at a stroke- and [i]still[/i] come within a 3.5 point swing of the tories. People want to use it as proof that there's no way forward for the left but it's no such thing. The double irony being that Miliband wasn't even particularily leftwing.

I want politicians of conviction that don't bend with the wind and stand up for what they truly believe in. I want politicians that only want power to alter the country to their vision. Politicians that turn themselves inside out to makes themselves sufficiently vanilla or worse still have little passion in the first place is a sad state of affairs.

This 100%. That Tony Benn quote Mhairi Black used the other day would seem to apply here. I don't expect he will, but I hope Corbyn wins. Those who say it will doom the labour party to permanent opposition are missing the point.

But ^ that way, convert, you end up a long way from consensus politics as you have a "permanent" opposition with no clout. No influence on the political direction at all. Yes, all your conviction politicians and their supporters will sleep soundly at night because they just know they're right, but they will have achieved nothing in the real world.

Labour are at their best, not necessarily when they own the centre right ground, but when everyone else thinks it's possible they could make enough people believe in the centre left.

In the current two and a bit party system you are correct. I hope in my lifetime we have developed a more mature true multi party political system where all national opinions are truly reflected and we have coalition governance based on genuine negotiation between conviction based parties (including single issue parties). Not sure it'll happen though - too much self interest in maintaining the current system by folk who hold all the cards.

The last election shows that you can put forward a terrible leader, and run a disasterous campaign, allowing your enemies to set every agenda and playing the whole thing on their turf by their rules, while working hand in hand with your fantastically incompetent Scottish leader and losing the entire country at a stroke- and still come within a 3 point swing of the tories. People want to use it as proof that there's no way forward for the left but it's no such thing. The double irony being that Miliband wasn't even particularily leftwing.

Good point!

Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election. It fits the blairite creation myth to claim he made labour electable but it doesn't stand up at all.

Even Atlee, a popular pick for greatest, most effective PM of the twentieth century, only really got one term out of the electorate.

We know that when policies are anonymised, people as a whole are more left wing than their voting patterns might indicate.

Doesn't that suggest that what people say they believe in, and how they vote, are at odds?
Which further suggests that “listening to what people say” rather than how they vote, will keep you in opposition.

Under First Past The Post, you have to win more “least bad option” votes from people picking between options they don't really like, than genuine “support the policies” conviction votes.

So the Labour Party has to worry far more about scaring the “hold your nose and vote” voters away, then it does about pushing forward policies that its “true supporters” believe in.

Sad but true.

what kelvin said, really, parties are trying to attract;

1) older people (young people don't vote in enough numbers to worry about)
2) the middle ground - they need to attract the 10% of people who actually vote that might be trying to decide between the two main parties.

The two things that would radically change the electoral outcomes in the UK are;

a) compulsory attendance at a polling station (or postal vote/opt out)
b) proportional representation.

PR's already had a referendum and people didn't like it and no party's going to increase the number of people voting unless they can see a clear permanent advantage for them in it so that won't change either.

So we end up with elections fought over nuances of policy and personality.

I'm going to sign up and vote for him, just becasue come the next election I'd like an alternative to my previous choices of red/yellow/blue tories.

wwaswas - Member

PR's already had a referendum and people didn't like it

we had a referendum on AV, which is different. Different enough for lots of people to vote 'No'.

Corbyn has no chance, the vote is still a while away and most of this is hype/scaremongering by the media, mainly because he's the only candidate that isn't properly dull.

[i]we had a referendum on AV, which is different.[/i]

indeed, but not different enough for there to be a further referendum any time soon 🙁

I think a lot of people make the mistake that milliband lost because he was too left or mirrored too many conservsative policy. I believe it came down to Ed Milliband not tackling the lie that Labour caused the economic down-turn. David Camerons "Labour got us here and we are putting in the hard work to get us out". was swallowed hook line and sinker and Ed Milliband never tackled this head on or wasn't given the chance due to most newspapers being conservative led.

The C4 interview posted here, I can understand why Corbyn flew off the handle. The same thing has been brought up again and again that he called then "friends" and not really ever discussing the issue.

@wwaswas- unless Scottish voters are drastically different from English ones, the last election suggests that's not the case. Scotland's response to the Labour lurch to the right was to wipe them out. And the rise of UKIP in England suggests otherwise too.

Yes, the choice between the tories and labour is made on nuance and personality; but that's a symptom not the cause imo.

@hexhamstu- totally agree. And tbf that's not just Milliband's fault, or his team; it's what happens when you're a political party that doesn't know who they are. If you don't have a tune to dance to, you dance to whatever tune someone else plays.

The irony of this; if people had responded in the same way to the downfall of thatcher, there'd be no David Cameron.

Pure revisionism. John Smith (and John Major) all but won the 1997 election,

Funny, I remember hearing the same about Kinnock going into the '92 election...

The thing forgotten abou the 'core vote' movement is that every vote you win from 'natural labour supporters who didn't vote' in that direction, galvanises support for the tories at the other end of the spectrum through fear of a labour win, hence you saw Tory majorities increasing, seats won back from the lib dems, and voters flocking back from UKIP in the last election

That's why you have to win on the centre ground, its as much about not mobilising support from the Tory heartlands as about winning swing voters

ninfan - Member

Funny, I remember hearing the same about Kinnock going into the '92 election...

What, that Kinnock died 3 years before while holding a 23% point lead in the polls, and then someone else took over and won? 😆 I think that's just a[i] bit[/i] too much revisionism.

[i]unless Scottish voters are drastically different from English ones[/i]

I think on this occasion they were, it came on the back of the whole independence thing and whilst people didn;t vote for that they didn't want the old Westminster club to continue unchanged.

Whilst UKIP probably did some damage the problem for Labour is (and will continue) to be that the way constituencies are drawn up means they have a relatively limited number of seats they have a hope of winning in England.

Labours core vote is still very heavily in areas associated with an industrial age that no longer really exists;

[img] [/img]

they are struggling to find a way to appeal to voters outside of those areas.

I don;t know whether the solution is to present themselves as a true 'left wing' party or continue to chase Tory marginals tbh.

wwaswas, this is arguably more useful

[img] [/img]

Shows seat distribution a bit more clearly by equalising size

But seat distribution doesn't reflect population does it, with the biggest seat having double the electorate of the smallest.

The mess the labour party is in is all down to Blair. Another thing we've got to thank him for. Due to his messiah complex, and his intolerence of free-thinking or disent, he hollowed out the party from the inside.

He parachuted MPs into labour seats, in most cases completely against the wishes of the constituancy party, who were just careerist yes men (and women) who would unquestioningly tow the party line. The Claire Shorts and Robin Cooks were soon despatched to the back benches. All decisions were then taken by Tony and his little cabal of spin doctors, Campbells minions. No debate, no discussion, no other opinions alowed to intrude on the One True Path. It became like a cult. Cabinet ministers were little more than spokesmen given their lines to read.

So now that some actual analysis, fresh thinking, and direction is needed, and god forbid... actual ideas!... its no wonder they're not up to the job really, is it? They've never had an original thought in their lives. They're just drones.

Steve Bell had it rght portraying them as baked beans...

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

If the polling is to be believed the average voter agrees mainly the left and socialist policies:

https://data.voteforpolicies.org.uk/countries/results#countries/england

Which means that in an election policies actually mean **** all. Charisma and having the tabloids on your side means much more. David Cameron is obviously much better at this than Ed Milliband was. There was so many things you could attack the tories over and I just think he failed. It had nothing to do with his policies. I think alot of the possible labour leaders are far too obsessed with winning an election they are blinded. Allowing themselves to believe that to win you must be like the current winners. If to win you have to mirror conservative policies there would be truly no point in doing it apart from to secure a career as an MP.

That poll is self selecting, so will be dominated by the younger middle class views and cannot be considered representative of the UK electorate.

A socialist labour leader would-be great

On that we agree. I've paid £3 to make it happen. It felt dirty and wrong to give money to them, but I figure that with their financial incompetence it'll not do them that much good.

except that the right ght wing press have already started monstering him before he's even elected, of course the Tories/right wing. Press/ paymasters are scared of him

They aren't monstering him, they are laughing at the prospect of him becoming leader. He is Screaming Lord Such, with very nasty friends:

Which means that in an election policies actually mean **** all.

I reckon this is broadly true. For most people it makes little or no difference who the govt is. Osborne's last budget was a perfect illustration of this. He was roundly congratulated for his political manoeuvring in adopting labour's main flagship election policies, rather than being criticised for it either on the labour or tory side. The trouble is that the people who suffer (or benefit) most as a result of govt policies have almost no voice. Without effective parties or representatives to voice these views then there's no point. If you compare politics to law, it's like both defence and prosecution are the prosecutors.

The transmigration of souls.

[img] ?type=article-full[/img]

Doesn't that suggest that what people say they believe in, and how they vote, are at odds?

Yes it does. It may also suggest that if the Labour party is able to articulate a clear, credible message, and stop playing the Tories' game, then just maybe there is more appetite for that message than is commonly supposed.

Wasn't it Len McCluskey who (in the early days) said that Miliband was the best leader of the Labour Party since Foot 😀

its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!
especially when a tory leadership election is just a battle of plastic tony blair clones and stirs so little interest among anyone
sadly this illustrates the gullible are easily led by the tory press and their corporate agenda, unless a PM tries to position himself in the centre right ala Blair/Cameron they will dictate the debate to the electorate and help their preferred candidate into power

Which means that in an election policies actually mean * all.

This may also be because no-one trusts politicians of any party to actually stuck to their manifesto promises. Policies mean * all because they'll be changed.

Yes it does. It may also suggest that if the Labour party is able to articulate a clear, credible message, and stop playing the Tories' game, then just maybe there is more appetite for that message than is commonly supposed.

^ This

its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!

You can keep telling yourself this whilst rocking backwards and forwards in the corner of your room, but [b]repeating it will not make it true[/b].

I'll p*ss myself laughing if he wins. Other conservatives I've talked to love the idea of screwing up Labour for a decade for only £3.

its great that people like cranberry have donated to Labour, the right must be absolutely terrified of Corbyn if they will go to such lengths!

The right are so terrified of Corbyn that they're paying £3 to try to get him elected leader? That doesn't make sense.

Other conservatives I've talked to love the idea of screwing up Labour for a decade

That is one very large leap of faith.

It is better odds than you would get from 1.5 lottery tickets.

This may also be because no-one trusts politicians of any party to actually stuck to their manifesto promises.

It's bigger than that I think. Politicians of all flavours have always gone back on their promises, and largely people accept this as they understand that things change due to events or other constraints. What people don't accept though IMO is a politician or party completely changing their professed beliefs in a transparent and flagrant pursuit of power and self-promotion. And they especially don't expect this from the labour party.

Labour's only chance of re-establishing itself and not becoming even more of an irrelevance than it already is, is to become a party of principle again with clear beliefs which cannot be changed. Of course they used to have something like this in the form of clause IV, which was got rid of, when instead they should have reformed it.

The right are so terrified of Corbyn that they're paying £3 to try to get him elected leader? That doesn't make sense.

indeed they are clearly all bonkers!

[b]No - its not too late to join up and vote for Corbyn - there is still time.[/b] 🙂

I would suggest not putting 2nd or 3rd preferences on your ballot as they are going to try to use those to manipulate him out of the leadership.

"[i]I suspect if he is winning it will be due to conservative politicians and supporters paying three quid and voting for their preferred candidate.[/i]"

"[i]Corbyn is a step left that appeals to CURRENT members but won't win new members.[/i]"

I have never previously joined any political organisation.
I joined Labour (chose full membership price) last week only because of Corbyn.

[b]I know 4 other people of various political position (but none being tory voters) who also rushed to join Labour in the last couple of weeks. People who have never previously been members of any political party and they have all joined just to vote for Corbyn.[/b] I have been amazed how he has brought out activity and enthusiasm in people who until a couple of weeks ago had given up hope with UK politics and its corruption.

People are desperate for democracy and genuine democracy needs to offer free choice. Labour, Libral and Conservative have all been right of centre parties for some while - so there is no genuine variation in choice for voters.

A good opposition is vital to promote debate, to highlight options and alternative beliefs or choices. Similarity of recent politics does not offer even a decent protest vote to the population.

Corbyn is the only person offering DEMOCRATIC CHOICES for voters in the UK at this point in time instead of just more of the same. Until the last week or so (and Corbyn standing) we have lived the last decade in what is alarmingly near a 'one party / one policy set' state due to all parties becoming so similar, with most politicians seeing politics as a good career rather than as a belief or as a need to help others instead of helping themselves to perks and power.

A good opposition is healthy challenge for whichever party (left, right or other) is in government and good for the population as a whole. Corbyn can reinstate an intelligent and engaged opposition - good for all of us, whatever our political party preferences are.

I have been amazed how he has brought out activity and enthusiasm in people who until a couple of weeks ago had given up hope with UK politics and its corruption.

yep looking at Facebook, he seems to have inspired a few people I know to join Labour.

"[i]really, parties are trying to attract;

1) older people (young people don't vote in enough numbers to worry about)
2) the middle ground - they need to attract the 10% of people who actually vote that might be trying to decide between the two main parties.[/i] "

What they need to attract is the huge number of people giving up on voting as they feel unrepresented, rather than a comparatively trivial number of floating voters. Leading up to the last election I (left of centre) spoke to a friend who is a lifelong Tory and some friends who had moved from ex Conservative party membership to Liberal voting. All of them felt they were not represented any more and hated the self serving corruption of UK MPs - but could think of no party different enough to move votes to, from the ones they had been voting for.

It really come to something when even those who vote are in despair about limited choice.

That young people are not voting should also not be dismissed - its a major disaster.

Voting and political engagement is to some degree almost a habit or mark of your view of yourself. If they dont vote when young they most likely will remain disengaged and apathetic (for good reason). Politicians of conviction (Corbyn) or who at least show some personality rather than looking cloned (Boris, Ken Livingstone) at least bring or brought the start of engagement, if you support their individual beliefs or not.

I love the ego filled honesty of the Tory £3 voters - the willingness to tell us all what shallow, dishonest and utterly self centred people they are.

- Lying to screw up an election (you have to make agree with a statement that you genuinely support the aims of Labour in order to join up).

- Trying to undermining the rights of others to be represented by anyone other than a right wing party.

- Attempting to destroy a legitimately elected opposition party by underhand means.

What heroes. The words "integrity" and "honesty" must send you running ignorant and confused for a dictionary!

Edit:
I see Mr Corbyn is undermining his own chances - here IS a man of integrity

"The Labour leadership candidate Jeremy Corbyn has called on the party to root out people voting for him in a bid to to skew the election result."
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jul/16/corbyn-urges-labour-to-root-out-telegraph-readers-trying-to-skew-vote