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Isn't it possible to agree that
A) War is shit
and
B) Racism is shit
at the same time?
To insist on arguing about how the subject was broached seems pretty cheap given what is happening elsewhere.
Except that lots of people have argued that it wasn’t really that racist or even if it was it’s not really that big a deal.
I must have missed this so I would really appreciate it if you could link some examples.
What I have seen is some people agreeing that the racism apparent at the border and on the way to the border was appalling, but going on to say that in the context of a invasion and the wholesale shelling of the civilian population it was probably not the most important thing right now.
Thank god someone managed to explain it better than I was trying to.
You'll find racists everywhere, whether it's beating up a migrant on a Kent beach or blocking a refugee at the Polish border. It's not insignificant, they're incidents which reflect situations in many societies, and the kind of divisiveness that leads to whole nations attacking each other.
One of the absurd ways Putin is justifying his war is "deNazification" or whatever you call it. It's taking a minority movement which exists and tarring the whole of Ukranian society with that brush. You could do the same for Poland. In France you could quote Zémour and tar the whole of French society with being anti-Islam.
I have a half Polish wife and visted relatives in Poland the year before last year. They are as appalled by the government and church leaders they have as any of us. They've stopped going to church - that's extreme for devout catholics - and vote accordingly. They'll be as shocked by the racism at the border as anyone.
Think twice before tarring a whole nation with the extreme acts or views of a minority (except when they become the majority - I can think of an example of that) and do what you can to stop them spreading their poison. I see this thread as taking on the racism apologists on the other thread. I won't call them racists but anyone who tries to minimise racist acts or dismiss them as insignificant in the greater scheme of things becomes a racist apologist.
Not all Poles are racist, unfortunately some are. Not all Brits are racist but unfortunately some are. The Polish border is open but there's some racism going on, the British border is errrr, ask Priti.
Told you I’m collecting memes. That ones winning in the whataboutery stakes right now. You may yet be trumped though…..
It may have been a tad too cryptic.
The story as far as I'm aware was initially on C4 news. The first night they pulled the story (suspiciously) complaining of audio issues - although it felt like they didn't want a negative story from the Ukrainian side. However, they ran the story the next night. A couple of days later Inkster came on berating everyone else for not having mentioned the issue. Suggesting (it felt to me at least) that everyone except them was racist. On a rare occasion I found myself agreeing at least in part with Binners.
To insist on arguing about how the subject was broached seems pretty cheap given what is happening elsewhere.
I was just trying to explain why people were a bit annoyed it was brought up, perhaps not because they're racist and don't think it's a problem.
To my mind taking part in ridiculous speculation and obsessing over military hardware is much more diminishing of the original tragedy
For the record the reason I am.asking questions about tactics and hardware etc is beacaue I want to know if there's any reason for any kind of hope in this situation.
Anyhow...
Her UK passport didn't do her much good did it? I hope that's something we can all agree on. An EU passport could at least have offered her some sort of sanctuary at the border.
And that could potentially be the case for all of us should we find ourselves trying to flee a war zone. We are less protected.
Brexit has increased the possibility that we could fimd ourselves in the position of being a refugee.
even if it was it’s not really that big a deal.
I must have missed this so I would really appreciate it if you could link some examples.
Working on the assumption that grum can't be arsed to respond here's a quick example :
So, I see Korinne from Leicester has managed to make it back home to the UK and has been reunited with her husband and kid after a “harrowing week long journey”. Bless her…
The poster obviously couldn't be bothered to read the article properly otherwise they would have realised that her husband and 11 month baby were with her.
That story received extensive media coverage precisely because of the appalling treatment and racism which it exposed.
Now argue that the poster wasn't trying to trivialise it and claim that it wasn't such a big deal, as I'm sure you will.
Her UK passport didn’t do her much good did it? I hope that’s something we can all agree on.
It got her through the border did it not?
"A couple of days later Inkster came on berating everyone else for not having mentioned the issue. Suggesting (it felt to me at least) that everyone except them was racist. On a rare occasion I found myself agreeing at least in part with Binners.""
Saying that no one had mentioned it for a couple of days is hardly berating everyone is it?
However, if you felt berated over there why have you come over here for more punishment?
I'm not sure anyone escaped the wrath of binners post, when he turns it up to 11 it's hard to work out what he's saying but seeing as it's a popular repost, I'll ask him anyhow,
"binners, do you think I was leveraging racist incidents to diminish the suffering in Ukraine?
Because currently various members who are finding it hard to think for themselves are trying to weaponise your post.
Straight answer or Monty Python meme will suffice.
It got her through the border did it not?
Yeah, she had to join the long slow queue with the other brown people but she got through in the end.
Can't see what the fuss is. It's political correctness gone mad I tell you!
To be fair, a few people posted that they had noticed the story but hadn't posted about it earlier and wished they had.
Same as me. That's why I posted about it. I had similar feelings. Is this the right time to post it? How will it be recieved etc.
Glad I did.
Yeah, she had to join the long slow queue with the other brown people but she got through in the end.
Again hard to tell as there are many stories of short trips of a few hours taking over a day, people queued in cars for days, the borders shutting for hours with no explanation why and only supplies from volunteers. Nothing about them just being ethnic minorities only.
It’s a horrible situation for anyone to be in and awful to think that there may be those waiting longer due to their ethnicity.
I get that our/my focus on the wider war meant we/I didn't give the racist incidents as much attention as we/I probably would have done if that situation had played out in any other time and place.
But being called a racist apologist as a result feels pretty insulting.
I think the point has been made. The way it's being laboured is starting to feel like virtue signalling at best.
In the tsunami of words posted so far on this thread I haven't read anything that will help anyone from Ukraine.
Why not focus on practical help and support?
Lobby your MP, donate, ask yourself - what can I do that will help, in even the smallest way?
The time spent - or, more accurately, wasted - on composing threads could be more productively used.
With that, I'll leave you to continue shouting at the moon.
Nothing about them just being ethnic minorities only.
There's plenty of reports to suggest racial discrimination at the border.
I presume that you didn't read the links on the previous page
https://au.int/en/pressreleases/20220228/statement-ill-treatment-africans-trying-leave-ukraine
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/01/africa/africa-condemns-racism-ukraine-intl/index.html
I have no reason to assume that the African Union's serious concerns are unfounded.
"In the tsunami of words posted so far on this thread I haven’t read anything that will help anyone from Ukraine"
But have you seen anything here that will hurt them more?
There is a Ukraine thread.
There’s plenty of reports to suggest racial discrimination at the border.
I presume that you didn’t read the links on the previous page
You assumed wrong. The word only was the clue.
I have no reason to assume that the African Union’s serious concerns are unfounded.
No or me so I haven’t.
Have you turned your heating down, Frank? 😉
we/I didn’t give the racist incidents as much attention
does not equal what I said:
minimise racist acts or dismiss them as insignificant in the greater scheme of things
Make sure you fit the description before getting offended, MoreCashThanDash, I've lost track of who posted what, but some of it fitted my racism apologist criteria. Racism is still racism in war. Check out which units were sent into some of the worst situations first in previous wars.
It got her through the border did it not?
Rosa Parks journey on the bus got her to her destination,so doesn't really matter where she sat 😕 That a fair comparison ?.
Adds - This isnt a direct dig at you Drac, but of the premise you've proposed in conjunction to what others are saying.
ernie, I tried to put acrooss the point that incidents like these were playing out awfully across many parts of the world and that might just have an effect when it comes to forging allegiances and alliamces etc but you know...not important enough.
I accept there's differences of opinion but I can't see how covering this story is playing into the hands of Putin? He's going to be exploiting the situation for every ounce of propaganda he can get from it regardless, so if we were to try and suppress it, there is more chance the awful behaviour at the border would continue or escalate even more, giving more ammunition to Putin and in that strange scenario, Putin would be the one with his hands on the truth.
Not shining a light on it will only give Ukranian and other eastern European thugs a licence to do their worst. And I fail to see how that would be helping Ukranians in general.
I was one of those who felt the racism was less of an immediate issue given the wider issues with the war. I don't think anyone described it as "insignificant", I think that is an inference others have made.
Racism is wrong in any circumstance, but when you're up to your arse in alligators, draining the swamp is not the immediate concern.
Not shining a light on it will only give Ukranian and other eastern European thugs a licence to do their worst. And I fail to see how that would be helping Ukranians in general.
I'm not sure it's the help that Ukrainians in general need right now.
"Rosa Parks journey on the bus got her to her destination,so doesn’t really matter where she sat 😕 That a fair comparison ?."
Yes, though I'm sure that some will say that sitting at the back of the bus is no great inconvenience in the grater scheme of things.
should enjoy the same rights to cross to safety from the conflict in Ukraine, notwithstanding their nationality or racial identity.
Suggests that people are being singled out based on their nationality or race Drac.
Perhaps they also discriminate against people with beards or very large ears, who knows, no one said that "only" ethnic minorities were being discriminated against.
This thread really is rubbish.
I struggle with long sentences. However, I did spot this, and it’s something with which I wholeheartedly agree:
Think twice before tarring a whole nation with the extreme acts or views of a minority (except when they become the majority – I can think of an example of that) and do what you can to stop them spreading their poison. I see this thread as taking on the racism apologists on the other thread. I won’t call them racists but anyone who tries to minimise racist acts or dismiss them as insignificant in the greater scheme of things becomes a racist apologist.
Not all Poles are racist, unfortunately some are. Not all Brits are racist but unfortunately some are. The Polish border is open but there’s some racism going on, the British border is errrr, ask Priti.
Now I’m getting back to my glass of whiskey before I go to bed, and leave the squabbling to you lot.
Nos da a chysga’n dda. 🇺🇦
Racism is wrong in any circumstance, but when you’re up to your arse in alligators, draining the swamp is not the immediate concern.
Draining the swamp is the long term solution though.
Wars are built on "us and them". Demonise and dehumanise the adversary so your followers won't feel bad about murdering them in brutal ways. Segregate, discriminate, victimise, build hate. Any characteristic will do: race, skin colour, religion, hair style, eye slant, politics, eating habits... .
Some racist border guards discredit Poland, add that to some dodgy internal politics on abortion LGBT and such, some barmy churh leaders and it's not long before people are convinced the whole of Poland is a place with dodgy values unworthy of Nato support. They're seen as different, not properly European - you see where I'm going?
"insignifcant" was prompted by:
Some people have no perspective!
It's worth noting that - not just on this thread - the majority of persistent, argumentative and voluble posters are 'free members'.
That means they make no financial contribution to support the forum they use to promote their views.
Says a lot.
If STW imposed a charge for those who don't want/won't pay for digital and/or print subscription - say, £5/yr how many would pay up?
Call them non-subscriber members.
Very few would be my guess.
Convert that notional £5/yr to a daily charge - it's less than 1.5p/day.
Not sure about the copyright status of this forum but Dave Gorman could have a lot of fun with some of the posts on this thread.
(thinks: molgrips last post!)
We're generating traffic, Frank, we're part of the business model, without us the already declining revenues from the likes of Google ads would fall further. I get bans now and then to remind me what life without STW membership is like. I began to think the most recent one was lifetime but then the damned thing came back to life 😉
Perhaps they also discriminate against people with beards or very large ears, who knows, no one said that “only” ethnic minorities were being discriminated against.
Tedious Ernie you’re getting desperate.
It’s worth noting that – not just on this thread – the majority of persistent, argumentative and voluble posters are ‘free members’.
So what you are saying is if free members, and tbh 99% of forums are free, pay a small subscription, their points and voices carry more weight.
I notice in North Korea, everyone who matters has a Kim Jong Un badge.
you’re getting desperate.
I thought you were getting pretty desperate when you said that you used the word "only" Drac. As in :
Nothing about them just being ethnic minorities only.
Yeah crossing the border has been proved difficult for many people, but only ethnic minorities have been discriminated against.
You are denying evidence of a specific problem and then claiming that you aren't denying the problem.
Racism has affected people crossing the boarder. Your interesting use of the word "only" doesn't change that.
What would make you happy?
Seriously, you seem very earnest and seem to be taking a huge amount of offence over what? Not a single poster on this thread has disagreed with your ascertion that the treatment at the border was racist, or that racism exists in various Eastern European countries (and the UK of course). No one is being an apologist for the racism. What else would you like us to do?
I seem to have triggered you because I trivialized a British citizens treatment (i.e. someone who still has a home and family and a country to go to). You can choose to read her story at face value and conveniently ignore the fact that this military buildup took weeks to happen and sensible non-Ukrainians would have followed the advice of their governments to get out of Ukraine asap. I'll be charitable and say she made a poor decision...
Anyway, quite a social media presence she has, btw. I'm sure this publicity will help her raise a lot of money for her Gofundme campaign (and won't hurt her various other ventures 😉)
"Anyway, quite a social media presence she has"
Jealous much?
Anyway, what's she raising money for? Could it be to help other refugees that are still stuck there? Could it be for other advocacy purposes that she believes in? (that you won't like).
Could it be that the media was so slow to report the stories (one of the big three UK tv stations sat on a fully edited piece for over a day, we used to call that sort of thing censorship) so she realised in the absence of proper journalism she'd have to roll her sleeves up and do something about it herself.
"I’ll be charitable"
Using the word like that is the opposite of being charitable..
Don't forget, she is actually trying to get refugees out of Ukraine. Something that most people would see as being charitable..
Anyway, quite a social media presence she has”
Jealous much?
I don't know markgraylish but I doubt their comments have anything to do with jealousy. I do imagine that a journalist would need to take "extra care" over fact checking a story received from someone who has a social media presence though.
You are denying evidence of a specific problem and then claiming that you aren’t denying the problem.
I’ve never denied there may be a problem. What I have done is point out the long queues, lack of facilities has effected most trying to cross the border. It’s not really surprising given the shear numbers trying to get through when the infrastructure is rapidly declining.
Premier Icon
Edukator
Free MemberYou’ll find racists everywhere… Think twice before tarring a whole nation…
Such as equating all Thai masseuse with sex workers? A rather casually racist comment in the Shane Warne thread I thought.
My wife uses a Thai massage place most weekends, a few years ago they applied for planning permission for a change of location, the planning portal was full of trolls making the same racist assertion. The owner was in tears as she told my wife how horrible it was to read.
Seriously, you seem very earnest and seem to be taking a huge amount of offence over what?
I seem to have triggered you because I trivialized a British citizens treatment
Taken offence?? Why would I be offended? I am not in the least bit offended by your comments.
Your comment suggesting that perhaps people weren't victim of racism and that instead the problem might be due to checking that Russian spies weren't entering the EU was undoubtedly daft but why would I be offended by it? Bemused, yes.
And the reason I referred to your trivialization of a black woman's experience of serious racism was because two people had asked of examples of where racism had been dismissed as not such a big deal.
I thought your use of the term "bless" as you attempted to patronise a black woman who had experienced racism was a good example.
The thread title is rather misleading, none of us seem to have learnt anything in the last few days.
To my mind taking part in ridiculous speculation and obsessing over military hardware is much more diminishing of the original tragedy,
We're all of us staring at this from the cheap seats, and all of us processing this at our own pace in a way that they can feel makes sense, for some that concentrating on the human tragedy, for others it concentrating on the fighting, but it's all the same thing: What the **** is happening?
People assimilate events at a different pace in a different way. Ridiculous speculation on a site predominately about mountain bikes is just a way people use to try to understand events while recognizing that they're impotent and helpless to do anything about it, similarly concentrating on the war fighting is just a way of looking for news that the fighting is going the way they hope, and that soon it will be finished.
It all just coping.
Just because people are processing this information in a different way to you, doesn't make them bad or wrong, they just have a different coping mechanism.
none of us seem to have learnt anything in the last few days.
Speak for yourself I have learnt something, as previously mentioned. Although it wasn't entirely surprising
You gotta love this place, full of self-righteous middle-class liberals who will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who says coloured people instead of people of colour accusing them of racism, but real racism which affects people’s lives and leaves them in stressful and unpleasant situations is dismissed as not important enough to discuss**
Edit :** When it suits their agenda
Anyway, quite a social media presence she has, btw. I’m sure this publicity will help her raise a lot of money for her Gofundme campaign (and won’t hurt her various other ventures 😉)
Wait, are you now accusing her of exploiting (and/or exaggerating) her racist treatment for personal gain? Wow.
Just because people are processing this information in a different way to you, doesn’t make them bad or wrong, they just have a different coping mechanism.
I dunno, I think some ways of dealing with it are obsessice, unhealthy and inappropriate.
You gotta love this place, full of self-righteous middle-class liberals who will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who says coloured people instead of people of colour accusing them racism, but real racism which affects people’s lives and leaves them in stressful and unpleasant situations is dismissed as not important enough to discuss**
Not even remotely what's being said.
We're essentially saying it belongs in a different thread. So you've got one, make your point. But I think it already has been made (racism is bad in Eastern Europe) so why are you still here?
The thread title is rather misleading, none of us seem to have learnt anything in the last few days.
I think its more about trying to have one's bias confirmed