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"What goes next in that conversation?"
That you care more about white Ukranians than black British? The woman in question was trying to escape having the s*** bombed out of her by the russians as well as having to deal with Ukranians who were threatening to kill her. So for me I'd put her and her child at a slightly higher priority because she is danger from Russia, Ukraine and whatever EU country she ends up escaping to.
frankconway,
Doh! At least I'm not confusing nice people with nasty people, I'm sure anyone of them would be proud to have put their name to the article!
These are also the countries when racism is less severe, on account of living next to people who look different tends to give you an opportunity to see that on the whole, skin colour apart, they aren’t really that different. There are even studies which indicate that Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe.
This is a very good point which imo too many people choose to ignore because it doesn't fit in nicely with their chosen narrative.
Although I would go further and say Britian is the most multicultural and least racist country in Europe.
Although that obviously doesn't deny the existence of racism as a deep rooted problem of course.
That you care more about white Ukranians than black British?
Umm?
Really don't follow your line of reasoning. I mean yes, racism is bad, we know. But like I said - there's a time and a place and you have to understand that right now it makes it look like you're steering the conversation away from the severity of the situation. I know what you're trying to say and I fully agree but right now it's just going to start a row (as it did).
Now we have a different thread, and yes, racism is much worse in Eastern Europe, i think we all agree there.
The number of people on this forum that are okay with that is shocking.
Who is “okay” with what you have described? It’s horrible. The account posted in the other thread was an utterly depressing read. And her journey didn’t get much better once in the hands of UK officials and staff either. All in all a horrific tale, and far from an isolated one by all accounts. It’s not good. It’s not okay. There is also a war happening, and the focus for many people is elsewhere other than on that of Brits and other foreign nationals being treated horribly and inequitably as they escape from it. We shouldn’t be damned for our attention not being focused enough on one aspect of this tragedy over others. We shouldn’t be made to weigh up all the horrible events taking place, and when dividing up our condemnation, sense of loss, fears for the future, empathy for survivors, worry for refugees, sadness for those that are dying, dread for the fate of protestors, and be made to pay some kind of social price for not spending enough forum time on any of the horrors piling up upon each other as a country is ripped apart and its inhabitants spread across Europe or pummelled into the ground.
There’s a few on here who seem keener to extend their empathy to Ukranian citizens than one of our own, trapped in a war zone with her baby.
"One of our own"....interesting choice of words there.
I don't know that woman personally but I do personally know three Ukrainians (two work colleagues plus a distant relative) who have family "trapped" in their own country.
So sure, if you ask me where my sympathies lie it's with those who are fleeing for their lives rather than someone who had an unpleasant border crossing and had to deal with some low-level racist shit...
Sure, she/they shouldn't have had to deal with it, but there's nothing I can do about and I'm sure the local politicians who can do something about it are kinda busy right now....
There are even studies which indicate that Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe.
13th European country according to this:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries
behind Ireland and Switzerland which aren't well-known for their colonial histories.
See what Priti Patel is doing in Calais right now.
Before slagging off what's happening in other countries have a look at UK policy right now. And remind yourselves of the reception given to people with dark skin fleeing a war zone created by the US and UK when they are washed up on Kent beaches.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/19/young-migrant-attacked-beach-moments-arriving-uk-12679864/
“One of our own”….interesting choice of words there.
Indeed. It says a lot without saying too much.
There are even studies which indicate that Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe.
Our government, or the general population?
Drac is right of course, he has absolutely no idea and yet he feels free to post nonsense, not even speculation.
You suggested we speak to someone who has experienced it, I did. They painted a different picture I just don’t know which one is accurate, the one you paint or the one they do.
There’s a few on here who seem keener to extend their empathy to Ukranian citizens than one of our own, trapped in a war zone with her baby.
I get angry that anyone has to find themselves in this situation, not just Brits.
When I said one of our own I meant someone British, who was let down by a number of countries including our own.
When a war kicks off we usually try to get our own citizens out, we prioritise them. It's normal.
If you think it's because I'm am nationalistic or something please say, I genuinely don't know what your implying?
As Educator points out, it's a silly game playing racist top trumps with statistics. The least racist is still racist.
"You suggested we speak to someone who has experienced it, I did. They painted a different picture I just don’t know which one is accurate, the one you paint or the one they do."
Both?
"I get angry that anyone has to find themselves in this situation, not just Brits."
I do too, I suppose when it comes to the crunch though, I am more likely to extend my sympathy to a non racist person than a racist one, regardless of which country they come from.
There’s a few on here who seem keener to extend their empathy to Ukranian citizens than one of our own, trapped in a war zone with her baby.
My sympathy extends to everyone caught up in this shit show.
Both?
Which is my point it’ll be a combination of them, the reality is usually a mix of perceptions.
When a war kicks off we usually try to get our own citizens out, we prioritise them. It’s normal.
Didn’t the foreign office advise and help brits to get home weeks ago?
As another perspective:
competitive virtue signalling is incredibly tedious and maybe a lot of us are tired of the same old posters trying to out-do each other with your oh-so-delicate liberal sensibilities
I used to regard myself as left-wing, being a lifelong Guardian reading liberal, but you lot, dear god….
Everything anybody posts is racist/sexist/somethingist
Bed wetters doesn’t even begin to describe it. You inhabit some kind of alternative naval-gazing universe, stained with the butter drips from crumpets
Unless you express solidarity with the Palestinians twice in every post then you’re a fascist, apparently
It’s quite incredible the threads you derail with your tiresome, competitive self-righteousness and pious, sanctimonious pontificating
And you all act as a gang to shout down anyone who has the audacity to raise any opinion that wasn’t approved by the your messiah in Islington
Maybe you could try not polishing your halo so publicly for the benefit of all of us?
This +1
Hi Ed,
You like in France don't you?
Everyone in the UK has gone mad right now. But I think you knew that...
Depending on which page you dropped in on I'm either a raging nationalist or a woke snowflake. Trying to get people to look at things from the perspective of others but you know.. priorites...
Anyhow, hope all is good with you? I got some mud on the tyres today in some fantastic weather and no one shot at me, or even threatened to shoot me! (remember I do live in Manchester)
I’m really struggling to even see what your point is Inkster, I’ve not seen anyone say half the stuff your claiming on here. I have also not seen anyone say that there won’t be any judgemental controls at borders. The war is tragic and sadly has many tragic knock on effects, because well war is shit.
I mean yes, racism is bad, we know. But like I said – there’s a time and a place
When it comes to racism I don't think there is.
When it comes to racism I don’t think there is.
Ok, we get it! You and Inkster outscore everyone else in the empathy stakes....
Pau, Inkster. I'm hoping sanity prevails in our up-coming elections. As I type this the background noise is the TF1 report on the Ukraine. Frankly it's difficult to watch.
I got mud on the tyres of my MTB today and skied up a mountain and back in the clouds yesterday. Huge privileges at the best of times and at present surreal. I thought back to the early 80s when I spent a Summer working in Germany during some of the Nato exercises when the cold war warmed up. Tanks rumbling along the local roads.
I thought of this guy too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24280831
I hope there are still some Russians who love their children.
I don't think there's much I can do apart from not consuming any gas or oil. I didn't go to the solidarity rally in town but if immigrants rock up I'll see if there's anything I can do.
Ok, we get it! You and Inkster outscore everyone else in the empathy stakes….
Well not everyone seems to get it. At least talk of "a time and a place" suggests they don't.
If you don't want to argue the point then don't bother, there is no obligation to do so.
Btw the African Union seem to get it :
https://au.int/en/pressreleases/20220228/statement-ill-treatment-africans-trying-leave-ukraine
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/01/africa/africa-condemns-racism-ukraine-intl/index.html
In this regard, The Chairpersons urge all countries to respect international law and show the same empathy and support to all people fleeing war notwithstanding their racial identity.
Not much talk of "a time and a place".
When it comes to racism I don’t think there is.
What did you want to happen on that thread? Where did you want it to take the conversation?
Racism discussions are good when they are unpicking subconscious bias, and helping us learn where we might be displaying racist behaviour without meaning too (or even with). I've learned loads from these. But the kind of racism on display in the Ukraine crisis is pretty obvious and I'm fairly sure everyone's going to agree with your view.
Drawing parallels between Ukraine and Iraq/Afghanistan is more important though.
Not much talk of “a time and a place”.
I think you've mis-interpreted that comment. I meant that in general, if you jump into a thread where everyone's talking about some tragedy and say 'yeah, well what about this other tragedy?' it tends not to go down well. It makes it look like you're diminishing the original tragedy, so people tend to get annoyed. This is how social interactions work in real life as well as online.
"It was such a relief," he says with a smile."
Not 'arf!
Yes Ed, I know you've got you're own issues with the upcoming elections. We're ok here though, "In Liz we Truss", she can out photobomb any nation, though she's clearly lacking any guidance system.
Ok, we get it! You and Inkster outscore everyone else in the empathy stakes….
Christ, this thread makes me sad.
What did you want to happen on that thread? Where did you want it to take the conversation?
Eh? There is no agenda other than pointing out that people fleeing Ukraine have been exposed to serious racism.
You gotta love this place, full of self-righteous middle-class liberals who will come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who says coloured people instead of people of colour accusing them racism, but real racism which affects people's lives and leaves them in stressful and unpleasant situations is dismissed as not important enough to discuss**
Edit :** When it suits their agenda
unpleasant situations is dismissed as not important enough to discuss.
That hasn’t happened.
That hasn’t happened.
Are you following a different thread to me?
What do you think the sentiments behind this comment are?
Ok, we get it! You and Inkster outscore everyone else in the empathy stakes
And the stuff about a time and a place
But the kind of racism on display in the Ukraine crisis is pretty obvious and I’m fairly sure everyone’s going to agree with your view.
Except that lots of people have argued that it wasn't really that racist or even if it was it's not really that big a deal.
It makes it look like you’re diminishing the original tragedy, so people tend to get annoyed.
Irrelevant whataboutery is one thing, but that doesn't mean it's never useful or relevant to compare situations in order to maintain a sense of perspective.
To my mind taking part in ridiculous speculation and obsessing over military hardware is much more diminishing of the original tragedy, but apparently that's an unpopular opinion.
Except that lots of people have argued that it wasn’t really that racist or even if it was it’s not really that big a deal.
I'm just speculating but I wonder - was it white people saying that?
Ernie,
"This isn't the thread for racism, this is the thread for war" they said, "go start another thread if you want to talk about racism", they said.
So I did!
On the plus side you and I are leading in the empathy stakes.
Cheer up pondo, I'm beyond being depressed about it (easy... I meant this thread). I'd have walked by now if I was. There's been some good contributions on this thread and for the rest.... Well I'm picking up few good anecdotes and a meme or two.
And the stuff about a time and a place
The stuff about the time and place I took as referring to starting a separate thread on the issue, not start the discussion in the middle of another.
The outscore comment I took it as people are agreeing with the OP it’s tragic but some how you and him can’t see that. None of those comments are dismissing the situation.
I don't know how much coverage this is getting from British media but it's a story that's been running four days now here:
There's a growing number of Ukranian refugees in Calais being turned back from the UK because they haven't got a Visa having travelled all the way across Europe without a Visa for any country. These people have family or friends they wish to join in the UK rather than being stuck in a youth hostel in Calais.
Yes Ed, I know you’ve got you’re own issues with the upcoming elections.
Three of the high profile candidates playing the anti-immigration, xenophbia/racist card in the hope it will Trump Macron, who isn't exactly soft on immgration himself.
The stuff about the time and place I took as referring to starting a separate thread on the issue, not start the discussion in the middle of another.
The outscore comment I took it as people are agreeing with the OP it’s tragic but some how you and him can’t see that. None of those comments are dismissing the situation.
Thanks Drac I obviously got the wrong end of the stick. It's great to hear that everyone was agreeing with each other.
I’m really struggling to even see what your point is Inkster
As far as I can tell they're arguing that racism isn't OK unless we're prioritising black Britons over white Ukrainians in which case of course that's more important. Or maybe it was the other way around, I've kinda lost track now.
That hasn’t happened.
Are you following a different thread to me?
It’s great to hear that everyone was agreeing with each other.
Please stop trolling, Ernie. You're better than that.
As far as I can tell they’re arguing that racism isn’t OK unless we’re prioritising black Britons over white Ukrainians.
Stop trolling
On the plus side you and I are leading in the empathy stakes.
However, neither of you have commented on Arthur do Val's sexist comments as far as I'm aware - could do better. Unless you think it's okay to ignore overt sexism.
Except that lots of people have argued that it wasn’t really that racist or even if it was it’s not really that big a deal.
I must have missed this so I would really appreciate it if you could link some examples.
What I have seen is some people agreeing that the racism apparent at the border and on the way to the border was appalling, but going on to say that in the context of a invasion and the wholesale shelling of the civilian population it was probably not the most important thing right now. Or to put it another way, if your efforts to deal with the racism are getting in the way of stopping someone blowing up apartment blocks full of civilians, you may just have made a dubious priority call.
I think this is worth posting again (and again)
Competitive virtue signalling is incredibly tedious and maybe a lot of us are tired of the same old posters trying to out-do each other with your oh-so-delicate liberal sensibilities
I used to regard myself as left-wing, being a lifelong Guardian reading liberal, but you lot, dear god….
Everything anybody posts is racist/sexist/somethingist
Bed wetters doesn’t even begin to describe it. You inhabit some kind of alternative naval-gazing universe, stained with the butter drips from crumpets
Unless you express solidarity with the Palestinians twice in every post then you’re a fascist, apparently
It’s quite incredible the threads you derail with your tiresome, competitive self-righteousness and pious, sanctimonious pontificating
And you all act as a gang to shout down anyone who has the audacity to raise any opinion that wasn’t approved by the your messiah in Islington
Maybe you could try not polishing your halo so publicly for the benefit of all of us?
I’ve kinda lost track now.
Evidently.
it was probably not the most important thing right now.
I must have missed where people have claimed that the most important thing right now is racism experienced by people fleeing Ukraine, so I would really appreciate it if you could link some examples.
"if your efforts to deal with the racism are getting in the way of stopping someone blowing up apartment blocks full of civilians, you may just have made a dubious priority call."
How are we stopping it exactly?
"However, neither of you have commented on Arthur do Val’s sexist comments as far as I’m aware – could do better. Unless you think it’s okay to ignore overt sexism."
Told you I'm collecting memes. That ones winning in the whataboutery stakes right now. You may yet be trumped though.....
You could, erm... Go and start another thread?
Oh dear. I think I'll just leave you to it.