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"Words to that effect don’t need to be racist though do they"
If they have the 'effect' of being seen as racist by half the world that's still a problem no?
Even if the statements didn't need to be, or weren't intended to be racist.
The 'pub full of white blokes' I go to has tradesmen, professors, civil servants, the occasional cyclist, techies, both sexes and mainly leftwing with a brown skinned lady behind the bar. I shouldn't like to stereotype.
If they have the ‘effect’ of being seen as racist by half the world that’s still a problem no?
I'm going to refer you back to your own point.
You could ask them you know, that way you wouldn’t have to be guessing.
Should we sit here and dissect your postings for racism and other -isms where none was probably intended or present? I could construe your dismissal of the middle east as a racist problem as racist in itself, are you saying that it's not the result of a whole host of historical and geopolitical issues and is in fact just because they're not "European"*?
You're taking a handfull of examples, some out of context, from 9 days of wall to wall 24h news coverage about a war on our doorstep, and calling everyone else racist for being worried about it. With the implication that we weren't equally bothered by events in Syria, Afghanistan or North Africa. Again, did you actually ask anyone on here what their views on those conflicts was? Or did you just decide for us that we were racist and didn't care?
You're winding people up, and once baited you're calling them racist for having disagreements with nuances of your philosophy. To parody you I could say you've not mentioned LGBTQ+ issues in relation to this once either, does that make you homophobic? Being stuck between Russia and Poland is very much a rock and a hard place in that context.
*I'm aware that "the result of a whole host of historical and geopolitical issues" could just as easily be the Ukraine, but we've not had an outright invasion in Europe for 80 years, so there's the nuance.
Spoon,
I've not called anyone racist or anyone a fascist and if people think I have then that really is their own problem.
I've just asked that we look at ourselves from an outside perspective.
I did ask other people their opinions. It's why I posted in the first place, I was hearing opinions not voiced on the thread in question.
Can’t we just talk about bikes and biking? After all we are on a mountain bike magazine forum site. I’m sure there are plenty of other sites that cater for those who want an in-depth discussion about what ever ism they are interested in.
IMHO this forum should be about the pleasures of riding mountain bikes and the tech that goes with them
Doh! Should have checked Cougars link...
If as some are suggesting, is so easy to talk about race on this forum then why did it take so long for anyone to comment on it? (Something acknowledged by bruce)
In a similar way, I'm sure fish don't feel the need to talk about water everyday.
You can see these things, and be concerned, and think and feel, but you seem to think it's only real if you come on a bike forum and honk loudly about it.
Across Western media there has been a constant chime of ‘this isn’t the middle East, it’s Europe’, ‘This isn’t Some third world African Country, it’s civilised Europe’. ‘They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’. Etcetera etcetera.
I am mostly avoiding TV/radio news as frankly I struggle to cope with the appalling hypocrisy.
I have recently learnt that many innocent people are mutilated and killed in wars, including children, and yet I can't remember that being discussed much when NATO countries were involved in unnecessary wars which ultimately achieved very little and often nothing at all.
I wouldn't call it hypocrisy. What most people seem to forget is that news organisations report the news they think people want to hear. Not what they think people should hear. Think of it as perverse entertainment - it all makes sense then.
You may think this morally wrong, but if people aren't interested or they don't like what's being reported, then they wont' watch it. So you run the risk of broadcasting news that no-one wants to hear to no-one. Not sure how you can force people to watch?
I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it works.
Can’t we just talk about bikes and biking?
Wouldn’t it be easier to close down the ‘chat’ forum and just keep the ‘bikes’ forum?
I was of the opinion that they were separate for a reason?
There used only to be one, and there were so many threads labelled OFF-TOPIC that they opened the chat forum.
Don't take the words of 10 or so posters on one thread as represantative of the whole of stw. I saw the news reports about black folks being let in 1 to 6 whites or whatever it was and I thought it was disgusting. I just don't comment much on threads anymore.
Well the Ukraine thread had become pretty unpleasant, and benefited from a time out.
The Ukraine thread was about a war of aggression on the borders of several EU countries. Brexit notwithstanding this feels pretty close to home. Chuck in attacks on civilians, what will be millions of refugees to house across Europe, possible further escalation by Putin... That's quite a lot.
So remainders that some NATO countries have done (arguably) bad things; or that some Ukrainians are racist and the processing of refugees as reported in the news is racist and everyone agrees is awful, these reminders do risk looking like whataboutery at best ("we're bad too not just Putin"), and at worst are close to Putin's claims he's liberating Ukraine from Nazis.
Not saying that's what anyone's doing, just that's what it could look like. The Nigerians I've met who've studied medicine in Russia have had a mixed time of it too. The more I hear about that Putin...
"I am mostly avoiding TV/radio news as frankly I struggle to cope with the appalling hypocrisy."
Me too, as fraught as it can get on here I'd rather get my news second hand, filtered by the STW massive than watch a helicopter go down in flames five times every hour.
One of the forums im on, a furniture making type of thing has an 'off topic' section, but it also has an 'off topic for controversial subjects' which things like covid vaccine, the Ukraine, western imperialism,etc is posted in. And people argue their points there
It's quite a conservative place so any swearing is strictly forbidden, even to the point of the forum software changing words like Idiot, or Fool or Moron into less abusive terms. Plus it has easy access to dozens and dozens of smilie things so peoples words cant be misconstrued.
STW doesnt have these smilies available to , im guessing here, 'free members' and are they more available to Full members ?.
Perhaps if there was greater access to these wee smilie things, people wouldnt feel tone is an issue when in truth it isnt and its just a question, rhetorical or otherwise
John×2
Well that's the contradiction isn't it? Highlighting the events at the border does indeed risk whataboutery and feeds propaganda to the Russians.
Not reporting it or commenting on it would be one option.
A bit of pressure on Poland and Ukraine (or the EU) to sort out what was probably a few hundred, or a couple of thousand mostly medical students would have been another. I think we're all agreed on the moral aspect, it's the dumbness that gets me most
As the Russian state takes full control of the media, every tit bit we give them will be exploited to the full. Whilst we watch the helicopters fall, they will be watching that border footage and the Polish far right chasing people through the streets on an endless loop.
these reminders do risk looking like whataboutery at best (“we’re bad too not just Putin”), and at worst are close to Putin’s claims he’s liberating Ukraine from Nazis.
Not saying that’s what anyone’s doing, just that’s what it could look like.
The trouble is that this sentiment for me leans towards a dangerous kind of propagandist groupthink where anything at all that distracts from the good vs evil narrative is helping the enemy and is not to be tolerated.
Serious as the situation is, we aren't currently under attack and I find this kind of mentality quite disturbing.
dyna-ti
If you're saying the use of derrogatorry language escalates things then I agree with you.
I've stopped using it, so have become more aware when it is thrown in my direction, it's only banter when both participants are using the same language.
I'm no saint though. I tend to respond to any abuse with obtuse comments, which has its' own capacity to wind up.
I saw the news reports about black folks being let in 1 to 6 whites or whatever it was and I thought it was disgusting.
I think this is the news report which kicked off this argument and got the Ukraine thread temporarily closed. Frankly, I was mystified at the fuss it caused. As others have pointed out, streaming immigrants at border crossing based on their immigration status happens at just about every international border and no one blinks an eye.
(Edit for clarity: the C4 News report was following some international students from Nigeria, I think. So these obviously have different visas/passports than the Ukrainian citizens)
If you’re saying the use of derogatory language escalates things then I agree with you.
Well yeah, but what the side effect of it is as soon as someone hits you with something you feel is nasty or spiteful, even if it wasn't implied that way, straight away you feel either forced to go on the defensive, or/and you completely ignore what that person is saying to you, and if others echo that, you view them also as being negative towards you and disclude their points also.
So you lose the point of understanding, or rather everyone loses the lack of understanding.
.
In effect, everyone crosses their arms and goes off in a huff 😆
By pure chance today I’ve spoken to someone who is heading home which is 3 miles from the Polish and Ukrainian border. They’re planning to work on the border helping with the refugees. What they described was those with proof of their nationality and those with none. Guess which ones are getting through faster than the others?
STW doesnt have these smilies available
😀😁😂🤣😃😄😅😆😉😊😋😎😍😘🥰😗😙😚☺🙂🤗🤩🤔🤨😐😑😶🙄😏😣😥😮🤐😯😪😫🥱😴😌😛😜😝🤤😒😓😔😕🙃🤑😲☹🙁😖😞😟😤😢😭😦😧😨😩🤯😬😰😱🥵🥶😳🤪😵🥴😠😡🤬😷🤒🤕🤢🤮🤧😇🥳🥺🤠🤡🤥🤫🤭🧐🤓😈👿
(and many, many more 💩)
to , im guessing here, ‘free members’ and are they more available to Full members ?.
You're guessing incorrectly.
What they described was those with proof of their nationality and those with none. Guess which ones are getting through faster than the others?
I don't understand why refugees fleeing a war zone need to prove their nationality.
Nor why how fast they are able to flee is dependent on proving their nationality.
We're talking about people trying to escape bombings and death, right?
You’re guessing incorrectly.
On this forum? Surely not....
I don’t understand why refugees fleeing a war zone need to prove their nationality.
Nor why how fast they are able to flee is dependent on proving their nationality.
We’re talking about people trying to escape bombings and death, right?
In a perfect world, run by enlightened governments, they wouldn't. But this isn't a perfect world and, quite possibly, some of those refugees may, shock horror, not actually be refugees. The KGB/FSB don't always play by the rules, the cheeky buggers...
You’re guessing incorrectly.
Certainly not in my posting box section.
I've ten options.
Left to right -
Bold
Italic
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Underline</span>
Quote
Insert/edit link
Remove link
Undo
Redo
Clear formatting
Insert/edit image
-------
And thats all. So no smilies.
So 💩 where are they then ?
The KGB/FSB don’t always play by the rules,
Ah yes of course. It's to check that FSB agents aren't trying to flee Ukraine.
Why would they want to flee Ukraine btw? And why are they incapable of having forged papers?
Edit : Just out of interest, do you know if the FSB are equal opportunity employers?
You do wonder about some people's political correctness, moral rectitude and big hitting as well as being free members.
Certainly not in my posting box section.
I didn't say they were.
Somewhat ironically, you're using the "fancy editor" (more correctly TinyMCE) so you actually have more options than I do. This is a setting in your STW Profile.
So 💩 where are they then ?
The emoji menu is Win-. (full stop) on a Windows 10 machine, it works across pretty much the entire OS. If you're on a phone, emoji support is built in to most mobile devices' virtual keyboards. Mac I've no idea I'm afraid, someone else will have to advise there.
And as you've presumably just demonstrated, copy & paste also works. Though sometimes quite badly in TinyMCE.
Ah yes of course. It’s to check that FSB agents aren’t trying to flee Ukraine.
Who is saying they want to "flee Ukraine"? I'm not. But I imagine being able to get inside the EU borders "undetected" may be useful strategically...
(But maybe I've watched too many spy films and have too vivid an imagination).
But I imagine being able to get inside the EU borders “undetected” may be useful strategically…
Maybe. But in this case, for example, I suspect that good ol' fashion racism was the issue rather than any concern that Korrine from Leicester might be a Russian spy trying to infiltrate the EU.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-student-brands-treatment-black-26390678.amp
“If I’m a white Ukrainian woman and I’ve got my dog, I’d just walk through while there are still these queues of black people that are probably going to be there for another two or three days"
I didn’t say they were.
No you didn't, but it would have been nice and helpful at the time to add how i should go about it. Instead of a cryptic " You're guessing incorrectly "
But thanks for your time though 😉 I'm sure i can manage without.
But you didn't post wanting a "nice and helpful" reply, you were just having a moan. So me being nice and helpful would've been a waste of my time and, oh look, when you did ask and I did give you a nice and helpful answer it seems you can manage without anyway.
🤷♂️
I see the Spectator has weighed in with their opinion on the matter. It was the leadimg article when I looked, written by the deputy editor Freddie Gray (Amelia Stratton's husbamd)
So if the story wasn't top priority for some on here it certainly was today for the Spectator, (and that's not a dig on anyone on here, it's a dig at the Spectator.)
I wonder if that's why I bought it up on the other thread in the first place? knowing how the situation was about to be leveraged by our very own bad faith actors, knowing they'd be lining it up to make a culture war here out of a real war there. And if that's what people thought I did then fair enough, I'm some random on the internet trying to show a bit of empathy, not the leading State Sponsored organ that is the Spectator.
I think this topic would have come up on the other thread in a day or two anyway if I hadn't posted yesterday. In a way its probably good that there's another thread available for these type of things, because the Ukraine thread is probably going to get a lot, lot darker.
My post wasnt directed at anyone in particular. Completely rhetorical.
Smilies are there to convey emotion, that is their entire reason for being, something many threads here could certainly do with.
" and many, many more 💩"
Pretty sad 🙄
“If I’m a white Ukrainian woman and I’ve got my dog, I’d just walk through while there are still these queues of black people that are probably going to be there for another two or three days”
So, I see Korinne from Leicester has managed to make it back home to the UK and has been reunited with her husband and kid after a "harrowing week long journey". Bless her...
Meanwhile "white Ukrainian woman with a dog" doesn't have a home to go to because it's been bombed and her husband/boyfriend/brother/father/son are staying behind to fight a massive army. She'll be lucky if she has a country to return to, nevermind a house or family.
Some people have no perspective!
Sure, racism exists and it's not pleasant, and some people are shits (and happen to work as border guards) so it's bound to happen but having to wait to be "processed" in chaotic situations is hardly a matter of life-and-death. I wonder how many of those 1000 students will still be displaced in a month's time...
Maybe. But in this case, for example, I suspect that good ol’ fashion racism was the issue rather than any concern that Korrine from Leicester might be a Russian spy trying to infiltrate the EU.
Well it would be but the person I spoke to it’s anyone without a passport is held and those with allowed straight through. Nothing to do with their skin colour.
it’s anyone without a passport is held and those with allowed straight through. Nothing to do with their skin colour.
Do you really think that in this example the woman, her husband, and their 11 month child, didn't have passports, that's why they were held up, and it had nothing to do with the colour of their skin?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/british-student-brands-treatment-black-26390678
What is the likelihood of black Brits living in Ukraine not having passports compared to the likelihood of black Brits living in Ukraine being victims of racism?
Or the likelihood that they might be Russian spies trying to enter the EU, for that matter.
Have absolutely no idea Ernie but there seems to different perceptions, I have no idea which one is the most accurate. I also have no idea if the queues were divided between Ukraine residents and none Ukraine residents which would make more sense then just based on their skin colour.
Thanks for your support on this thread ernie. I read that story you posted and it was absolutely horrific.
Drac is right of course, he has absolutely no idea and yet he feels free to post nonsense, not even speculation.
For those who like to post but can't be bothered to do their own research the brief synopsis of the story is that they leave by car for the border, when they stop for a break they are approached by local armed Ukranians and are told they will be shot if they don't leave in 5 minutes.
When they get to the border they join the queue to cross but locals surround the car and start pounding on it, they are then dragged out and forced into the pedestrian queue, which is composed entirely of non white people, anyone white was allowed through immediately, (there's your FSB spies for you).
After a 10 hour wait at the side of the road they finally crossed into Romania. Where they had another 10 hour wait. She is a British medical student and she is working on a database of a thousand other non white people who had similar experiences and she is trying to help because some of them because they are still trapped.
People were segregated 100 % and exclusively by race, not by passports. It was Jim Crow, in Europe, in the 21sr Century. The number of people on this forum that are okay with that is shocking.
There's a few on here who seem keener to extend their empathy to Ukranian citizens than one of our own, trapped in a war zone with her baby. They get angry if things like this get mentioned on a thread about Ukraine because it gets in the way of the important stuff, like transferring their 'call of duty' training to the problem, being an armchair Napoleon or posting war porn.
Not knowing something is not knowing something.
Not knowing something and posting about it is ignorance.
I'm not calling anyone a racist but I am calling them ignorant.
On the other hand:
"OMG these people are getting the shit bombed out of them"
"Yeah that sucks, they're also racist."
"..."
What goes next in that conversation?
inkster - you may be correct in saying that Amelia Stratton (who she?) and Freddy Gray are married but you are confusing them with Allegra Stratton and James Forsyth (of the Spectator) who are married to each other.
Look around Europe and in general you will see that the countries that were most successful at plundering and enslavement in countries populated by non-white people are the countries that today have the highest proportion of non-white residents. These are also the countries when racism is less severe, on account of living next to people who look different tends to give you an opportunity to see that on the whole, skin colour apart, they aren't really that different. There are even studies which indicate that Britain is one of the least racist countries in Europe. This is a sign of progress, but it doesn't make the original crimes of the colonialists any less bad.
In the countries who were not such enthusiastic colonialists non-white people are rarer and racism is much worse. Eastern European countries tend to be in this group.
So, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and many other Eastern Europeans are in general much more likely to be racist than Britons. This is a very bad thing, but it doesn't make the invasion of Ukraine any less bad.