[Closed] I've learnt something about STW today.

I’ve learnt something about STW today. Not really, rather something was confirmed that I’d always felt was the case.

I didn’t see it as you did, I’m all for nailing my issues to the mast and shouting as loud as possible but the way you expressed yourself and attacked was a shit move imho.

I don't think it's difficult to talk about race on here. We have done it many times. The problem that you describe here is not specific to STW, it would happen anywhere. When people are focused on one tragedy, it would always be seen as disrespecting it if you then brought up another.

Or, to put it another way, the current situation is a developing emergency with dramatic twists unfolding all the time. Racism is a longstanding tragedy that's been with us forever. I think they occupy different spaces in people's minds. And it's debatable if they should. I mean the war is a specific event that has a start and will have an end, and it requires a tactical response to get to that end. Racism may well end one day but it will take a lot of societal reconstruction and take a long time.

I did comment on that thread how people are rejecting any nuance in their eagerness to support the Ukrainians. I think people sometimes struggle with nuance, they want things (and people) to be either good or bad and not both, which is usually the reality. But again, is that thread the place to bring it up? Probably, maybe, but it's not the place to have a bun-fight about it.

I still don't get this mentality, if you don't like a comment simply don't read it or engage with it any further if you aren't willing to have a debate on it?

This is like complaining about comedians saying things you don't like, just turn it off. This is generally a skill people learn as they mature, you cannot control the discourse of conversation on such big issues as there is too much nuance and variety of viewpoint.

This place is getting way too sensitive for me.

This is like complaining about comedians saying things you don’t like, just turn it off.

Not really - on here, it's a two-way communication medium, and a response is expected. If you think someone is saying something morally wrong, you could argue you have a duty to call them out on it.

This place is getting way too sensitive for me.

Then follow your own advice and just drop out of those threads?

I probably broadly agree with your sentiments on what was going on at the borders.

But I don't think you came across at all well in that particular exchange on that thread. Perhaps posting in haste, I dunno, but as we all know text/posts can be easily misinterpreted.

Apparently we were derailing the thread, not actually caring about non white people and only using them to be a clever dick and trying to win a p***ing contest

If you're talking about me, can you please go back and have a look at what I actually wrote.

As far as the pissing contest comments go, I was more thinking about grum who came in telling us we were all over-reacting and then pivoted to calling us all racists when it was pointed out why this situation is a big deal.

You're right, I saw the same stories myself and didn't comment on them. I should have.

I said in the other thread the problems I had with squaring it away with seeing racism in our own peaceful society vs seeing it happen in a war-zone.

I'm sorry if you feel that I was trying to belittle your experiences. I was more annoyed about grum starting off on one tack and then pivoting to racism. That's where my comments about using this as a stick came from.

Undoubtedly this place sure has a broad spectrum of different views. And I normally take a back seat, to be honest.

But can't talk about race? Nah. The complete opposite. Blinkered views are shot down pretty quickly.

Start a thread and let's discuss.

To call anyone who didn’t feel it part of the conversation about the invasion (or mods that didn’t stick up for you) racist, is a very shitty thing to do IMO.

To the man with a hammer, everything is a nail.

‘What would Singletrackworld do?’

Go and stand with them in the other queue

The situation is crappy, the news report I saw filmed far right polish gangs chasing non white immigrants around the town. The Ukrainian National Guard has a unit of nazi white supremacists. I can also guarantee that there are plenty of people of both nationalities outraged by it and doing something to help

You aren't going to fix a issue like this overnight in a foreign country whilst they are at war or taking thousands of refugees.

I feel there was a bit of mix up there inkster… people shared examples of what you were talking about, and supported you. I learned something (ie about the awful behaviour that happened on route, not just at the border checks) that I might not if you hadn’t brought it up in that thread. Thanks. There were other things going on that were derailing that thread, I think you got caught up in it all, and perhaps started thinking everyone was complaining about just you, and that escalated.

if you don’t like a comment simply don’t read it or engage with it any further if you aren’t willing to have a debate on it?

Surely commenting on things you don't agree with and posting your own opinion is debating? Just replying to things you agree with and ignoring those you don't make it an, (forum favourite) echo chamber.

Hmmmmmm. I'm not sure if my comment kicked all this off, or not. But, it had nothing to do specifically with the comments around racist behaviour towards people of different race at the borders and how they were being treated.
It was a general comment about the direction the thread was taking which seems to happen more and more on threads across the board (bike & chat) at the moment.

Kinda what Kelvin alluded to up there about a mix up..... ^^^

I'll say no more regarding this as I don't want to stray into kicking the ball or not kicking the can, or whatever it is we're not supposed to be doing. I'm not very good at metaphors.

It's all moot now as the Ukraine thread has been cleansed.

Is anyone really surprised about this? And by "this" I mean racism in its many forms...

It's problem in Ukraine, it's a problem in Hungary, it's a problem in Poland. And it's also a problem in the UK, USA, Canada, Germany, Austria and many many many other countries...

Some people on this forum get more upset about it than others, and then think they can lecture others about not having an appropriate level of woke-ness which turns every vaguely interesting political thread into a pissing contest....

Sure, bring something to our attention if you want, but don't berate everyone just cos they don't mirror your opinion or feelings....

On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate myself as maybe an 8 on the woke-scale 😉

Undoubtedly this place sure has a broad spectrum of different views.

Not that broad. How many people do you know on here who are comfortable to admit to being Tory voters and express their opinions?

I would say that this place has an extremely narrow perspective and anyone who challenges the stw consensus is dismissed as a troll. The idea that someone might see things differently is not considered to be feasible.

Sorry Stumpy, I mis-atributed your post.collateral damage. All good Bruce.

Kelvin, you did jump in with both feet and perhaps the reference you made to UK immigration policy wasn't the best thing you've ever posted. I definitely saw it as 'incoming'.

Far from berating anyone, just look at the language thrown in my direction, inflamitory and aggressive. I haven't reciprocated, yet my ways are still "shit" aparently. But I do understand the tendency for people to start swearing when they are feeling a bit sensitive.

As another perspective:

competitive virtue signalling is incredibly tedious and maybe a lot of us are tired of the same old posters trying to out-do each other with your oh-so-delicate liberal sensibilities

I used to regard myself as left-wing, being a lifelong Guardian reading liberal, but you lot, dear god….

Everything anybody posts is racist/sexist/somethingist

Bed wetters doesn’t even begin to describe it. You inhabit some kind of alternative naval-gazing universe, stained with the butter drips from crumpets

Unless you express solidarity with the Palestinians twice in every post then you’re a fascist, apparently

It’s quite incredible the threads you derail with your tiresome, competitive self-righteousness and pious, sanctimonious pontificating

And you all act as a gang to shout down anyone who has the audacity to raise any opinion that wasn’t approved by the your messiah in Islington

Maybe you could try not polishing your halo so publicly for the benefit of all of us?

Tricky one - in the scale of suffering this war is imposing on people caught up in it, the incident at the border falls fairly low on my OMGodometer.

I understand that the OPs life experience is different to mine and sees things with a different perspective.

Is racism demonstrated like that acceptable? Of course its not, and just as soon as the immediate threat to lives in the Ukraine is reduced, it should be a higher priority.

That's my view. If you think I'm wrong, that's your view.

The problem is we have a small group of 6-10 on here - and maybe I'm one of them - who cannot take any disagreement with their views without going straight to attack mode, either directly, or in tone. Some of them I've seen on here for years and I've seen their attitude change for the worst in the last couple of years.

I'm very conscious that the pressures the pandemic has brought, now being compounded by the war, has affected my perception of events and comments, and I try to take a moment to think before I react, even if that means not bothering to react. Maybe some others need the self awareness to try and do the same.

The message about playing the ball and not the man seems to have gone in one ear and out the other for some of us at times. But just because others don't agree with your exact view of something isn't a personal insult. The world is full of idealists spouting wonderful principles and achieving **** all. People need to stop insisting that their version of perfect is the only way forward, when a broader consensus of "good enough" would be a huge step forward for the world.

Gawd, I wish I’d followed the Ukraine thread more closely now so I knew what everyone was on about. Sounds exciting!

I would say that this place has an extremely narrow perspective and anyone who challenges the stw consensus is dismissed as a troll. The idea that someone might see things differently is not considered to be feasible.

I don't think that's true. There are plenty who are open minded and willing to debate other views, whether race, gender, brexit, covid, ukraine....and so on. There are some who are too closed minded and whose default is aggressive dismissal, etc. You are attributing the characteristics of that group to the whole place, but just as in the real world - if you were in a pub or hall having a discussion on this and most were talking and waiting patiently to speak and one bloke has brought a megaphone and ain't waiting for anyone, you'd soon hear that as the 'only' view.

In return - if you have 'alternative views' you need to be able to debate, defend and also listen and accept where those views are disproven. A bit chicken and egg if you get shouted down at every turn, but I think it's fair to say STW does have a fair share of flying in trolls and sealioners and understandably they are frustrating.

Interesting to me is the folk that are in that category. I honestly don't remember many names on here or their past proclivities and leanings, but have the impression that if you were to Venn them there'd be a huge overlap for the shouty types in each of these sensitive threads so it's not even really beliefs, it's debating style.

So sure, the STW demographic is generally liberal / left leaning, pro-Europe, inclusive, pro-vax.....etc., but we aren't ALL dismissive of the other viewpoint in the way that your comment suggests. We too wish the megaphone types would shut up and sod off so we can continue our conversations and learn from each other.

Gawd, I wish I’d followed the Ukraine thread more closely now so I knew what everyone was on about. Sounds exciting!

There's a terrible war, lots of casualties and collateral damage and no one seems able to stop the mad men running it.

Meanwhile, over in Eastern Europe.....

And a far more positive response from theotherjonv, as usual.

if you were to Venn them there’d be a huge overlap for the shouty types in each of these sensitive threads so it’s not even really beliefs, it’s debating style.

A very good point. Often the shame "shouty types" shouting at each other across a whole range of subjects.

As for the 'this isn't the time to be discussing racism' bit. In line with my last post, I see both sides. IMHO it's ALWAYS the time to be discussing racism, and it should be called out wherever, and the reports, etc. of the attacks and the queues are indefensible. Depending on your own experiences and views, maybe above everything else.

But at this time when the world is close to war others may prioritise differently, and to immediately turn 'not the time / place to be discussing this into' YOU BUNCH OF RACISTS was wildly off the mark, and behaviour typical honestly of the megaphone shouters elsewhere.

My favourites (and I admit I'm often guilty of this) are the ones where a group of people agree with each other on 99% of everything being discussed and still manage to get into a raging argument.

Often, the worst arguments aren't even about the 1% they disagree on, it's disagreeing about the language they use to agree with each other.

Part of why I love this place.

Bed wetters doesn’t even begin to describe it. You inhabit some kind of alternative naval-gazing universe, stained with the butter drips from crumpets

I reckon, if you really wanted to, you could make your points without personally attacking other posters.

The thing that actually needs to be learned is when to walk away.

the audacity to raise any opinion that wasn’t approved by the your messiah in Islington

It's pretty obvious that there is only one person on here that has a total obsession with Corbyn.

Qne way or another he has to try to mention Corbyn on every thread he posts on.

And then accuse others of being "tiresome".

It's like deja vu all over again Rodney. 🤦‍♂️

Please don't start with personal attacks.

Please don't respond to those who do.

I think the comments about racism were not raised in a "FFS even in the middle of this tragedy some aresholes are still finding time to be racist ****s" rather it was "look racism this proves all the other points I have been squabbling about".

There are so many issues with current events in Ukraine and how it affects us and the rest of the world there probably should be multiple threads, as it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion on one point without it getting obscured by posts jumping across so many issues.

1 The humanitarian disaster
2 the information war (current and over the past few years) probably including western hypocrisy.
3 war porn strategists.
4 racism (and its role in the information war)
5 an extra thread for the twitter addicts to regurgitate their twitter bubbles.

The thread was closed to allow people to cool off, there was a footnote to that effect. It was then cleaned up with posts causing the thread to go off on an argumentative tangent. If you have such a specific point to raise related to but not direct with the topic on discussion then probably best to start a new thread if it’s detracting from the the original.

Sometimes we need to learn that maybe it’s not everyone else who has it wrong but ourselves.

Sometimes we need to learn that maybe it’s not everyone else who has it wrong but ourselves.

But....but....this is the Internet!

I recall reading recent post here where the phrase “Play the ball not the player” was used. This can be extended, if you wish, to add “but do take a look at the player and decide if you wish to continue the game”

Seems relevant.

Maybe you could try not polishing your halo so publicly for the benefit of all of us?

That might be what you read into it but it might not be what the poster intends. Just saying.

Gawd, I wish I’d followed the Ukraine thread more closely now so I knew what everyone was on about. Sounds exciting!

This.

Nothing so annoying as hearing the tactical analysis for a game you haven't seen.

You get attempts at nuance, you get the techie tactical gamers, you get STWs version of Swayne/Leigh. Overall a reasonable glimpse of the man-in-the-street's take on what's happening.

In a nutshell, I mentioned the incidents at the Polish/Ukraine border.

I was told it was not relevant and should go and start another thread.

About 5 posters were playing the man, using abusive language. It's that what I was objecting to. I didnt call anyome racist. (others might have).

I'd posted plenty of things that people had disagreed with on that thread, this was the only post where that disagreement was met with direct insults and abuse. Make of that what you will but that's the facts of it.

I get that some thought it not relevant, however I think that how this is viewed beyond the borders of Europe is relevant, at least as relevant as the pages and pages war porn and armchair generalship. A point no one has engaged with.

I think that how this is viewed beyond the borders of Europe is relevant

Can you expand on this?

appropriate level of woke-ness which turns every vaguely interesting political thread into a pissing contest

How about empathy instead of "woke"? It's less perjorative and a lack of empathy can be attributed to those that use woke. One shooting war is enough without joining the culture war as that's a demonstration of intolerance in itself.

I get that some thought it not relevant, however I think that how this is viewed beyond the borders of Europe is relevant, at least as relevant as the pages and pages war porn and armchair generalship. A point no one has engaged with.

Prejudices exist outside Europe, skin colour or ethnicity isn't a barrier to having prejudice. The core point that Europe should be better and it's bound to have impact in terms of how some see us is still important. We can and should be better than this and hopefully will be in the near future.

Molgrips,

Across Western media there has been a constant chime of 'this isn't the middle East, it's Europe', 'This isn't Some third world African Country, it's civilised Europe'. 'They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed'. Etcetera etcetera.

This is not being received very well beyond the borders of Europe, not because I think so, because people have told me and I've looked at some non Western media for a bit of perspective.

There's also a few million Britain's who don't conform to the 'look like us' stereotype. I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news? And I also wonder how they would feel if they strolled on here.

They look like us

Quite correct and something I think I said in the thread. However, despite the inherent racism that is a real effect and perhaps lies at the root of racism itself.

But as I also said it's not really possible to bring this up at this time (because psychology) and you'll get the response you got, and that may end up even damaging your aim long term.

I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news?

I was going to respond here but I can't do so without appearing to trivialise one side or the other because of the same psychology.

They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’. Etcetera etcetera.

Are you conflating MSM with social media?

There probably has been the odd ill thought out piece but it's not the main strand

There’s also a few million Britain’s who don’t conform to the ‘look like us’ stereotype. I wonder how they feel when they are watching the news?

Who is us?

How do they feel? Probably worried that it's going to go nuclear and what the price of petrol, heating and food is going to get to nevermind their job security

And I also wonder how they would feel if they strolled on here.

Probably wondering what tyres for bomb debris?

If you think this place is the problem then you need to step back from the internet

"Are you conflating MSM with social media?"

I am conflating MSM with STW for sure. Not sure about other social media because this is the only social media I follow.

"How do they feel? Probably worried that it’s going to go nuclear and what the price of petrol, heating and food is going to get to nevermind their job security"

Probably is the key word.

Across Western media there has been a constant chime of ‘this isn’t the middle East, it’s Europe’,

Words to that effect don't need to be racist though do they. Rightly or wrongly everyone knows and expects brutal dictators like Assad to end up in Civil Wars, Iran and Iraq to clash, Israel and Palestine to be in conflict, Israel and Iran to square up etc.

They don't expect in 2022 to wake up to a European country being invaded.

It's geopolitically different.

‘This isn’t Some third world African Country

I think you've miss quoted that. The original quote is from al Jazera and goes "These are not people trying to get away from areas in North Africa", which again goes back to the previous point, Lybia, Tunisia and more recently Algeria (a topic that didn't get much news coverage, racist? Or just overshadowed by COVID in the UK?) are or were untill very recently not very "European", using "European" as a synonym for modern western liberal democracies.

‘They look like us, blond haired, blue eyed’.

Yea, I saw that one live on the news. It really was a "did he just say that......" moment.

But being the empathetic forgiving type, I'm going to give him some benefit of the doubt and say the Ukrainian civil servant who said that was speaking in a foreign language, and probably hasn't slept much recently. It wasnt his main statement, it was an epilogue apologizing for getting emotional during the interview. He might just have been struggling to pick a more nuanced set of words. An overly generous application of Hanlon's Razor, perhaps. Maybe he is actually a nationalistic flag-waving racist after all.

Is it racist/zenophobic to be more affected by seeing your own country bombed than some faraway land? Objectively, yes it is. But it's on a whole other planet compared to for example the border crossing issues if they turn out to be true.

But even then there's room to argue what's going on. Without context, the "uk passports" Vs "non-UK passports" queues in the arrivals terminal at Heathrow from parts of the world probably look pretty racist.

How about empathy instead of “woke”? It’s less perjorative and a lack of empathy can be attributed to those that use woke. One shooting war is enough without joining the culture war as that’s a demonstration of intolerance in itself.

The etymology might be the same, but personally, I'd see a huge difference between someone I'd describe as empathetic and someone who's woke. One's quietly packing boxes of supplies into the back of a luton van to drive across Europe, the other's throwing metaphorical bricks at a peace rally.

Would 'Pub full of white blokes" be a fair description or the STW Forum?

Note that I didn't say racist white blokes before anyone gets hypersensitive.

Big-n-daft nails it really. He's told us how other people 'probably' feel without actually canvassing their opinion.

You could ask them you know, that way you wouldn't have to be guessing.