[Closed] I've just set up my own distillery company!

No, that's not the chap.

Some mecural thoughts

Working capital is going to be your biggest issue

You are proposing to build a small batch chemical factory, don't cuff the process engineering

You are going to need lots of heat, I assume you are off grid, how are you going to generate it? Heavy fuel oil will be dead in the future due to emissions.Renewable incentives have tanked but should not be dismissed

You will generate a lot of effluent that you need to dispose of, how are you disposing of it?

Finally you need to sell your alcohol, what is your route to market?

the value of the distillery tour is very high if you can provide the facilities. Coach loads of foreign tourists might be impossible but they spend outstanding amounts of money in distillery shops

[b]big_n_daft[/b] These are all valid points. The issues of energy, waste and engineering will be covered by a consultancy who specialise in distillery work. What I know at the moment is oil, soakaway and compost, and yes, respectively to those three points 🙂

As for working capital, aye, I need to factor that in and thanks for reminding me to do so. Route to market will likely be online sales, farmers markets, craft fairs and the like until I can secure some outlets (although that'll reduce the profit margin considerably). Definitely will look at the export market too. Scottish booze does appear to hold a certain cache abroad.

If I say I've been talking to a guy called 'theotherjonv'

Jon V and he'll know, especially as i already primed him through LI

I was JonV on here pre-hack but then for some unknown security reason decided to not be JonV again and became theotherjonv. Cunning!

good luck!

There's a guy here - Ed Dodson - who has retired as a manager but seems to do bits of distillery consultancy. Really really nice guy is Ed. Will work out volumes and the engineering required. Also I'm sure would be happy to give input.

[url= http://store.mintel.com/industries/drink-and-tobacco?cat=65 ]There might be a relevant mintel report [/url] which may help. I [i]think[/i] if you are a student/academic you can access these FOC through your institution.

Jon V and he'll know, especially as i already primed him through LI

There's a guy here - Ed Dodson - who has retired as a manager but seems to do bits of distillery consultancy.

[b]willjones[/b] that's fantastic, thanks! I don't get access to the full reports, but the raw data and summaries are available. Cheers!

ah, sorry Kit, meant here as in Elgin. Ed is ex Glen Moray manager. He's not on here as in "S T W" I'm afraid...

I landed a part time job with a major UK wine retailer to tide me over and I can tell you for sure, the gin "bubble" won't be popping any time soon.

The issues of energy, waste and engineering will be covered by a consultancy who specialise in distillery work.

Be careful to get what you need not what they want to give you, be careful to tightly define your needs and the required outputs

Who is doing the planning application? How are you planning to procure the kit, what form of contract, who is commissioning it?

I would read other micro distillery planning applications as they often tell you others mistakes and give you pointers

With regards to waste you may need to bus it off site

Be careful to get what you need not what they want to give you, be careful to tightly define your needs and the required outputs

Who is doing the planning application? How are you planning to procure the kit, what form of contract, who is commissioning it?

I would read other micro distillery planning applications as they often tell you others mistakes and give you pointers

No idea yet about procuring kit. Various options, both new and second hand, through the consultants or direct, UK or abroad. Will need to see what I have to buy before I start shopping!

With regards to waste you may need to bus it off site

I'm pretty confident that I won't be generating anything requiring disposal by a specialist contractor. Again, I'm taking advice on that, though

Your grains, spent lees and pot ale? How are you doing cleaning, caustic?

Where are you getting the barrels from? Where are you storing them?

They work to my specification, in fact I emailed that to them today.

None of this is criticism, and I know nowt about distilling, good luck with the venture

None of this is criticism, and I know nowt about distilling, good luck with the venture

In terms of process it is a simple mass balance, what goes in must come out in some form

SEPA have a soft position on distilleries but are harder on the new ones than the older ones sitting on old water use licenses.

Well, the latest budget is not good news for me, with duty set to rise by nearly 4% (apparently). Also, as a limited company hoping to attract shareholding investors, the taxable dividend allowance has dropped considerably 🙁

It can still be made to work, but a bit of a kick in the teeth nonetheless.

A wee update for anyone interested:

Was at Heriot-Watt today speaking to two of their Brewing and Distilling MSc students, who are going to do some product development and marketing for me. Might actually have something to taste in a few months. That's the easy bit...

...the hard bit being the cost of setting up a distillery! I took on a process engineering company called Allen Associates, who have put together a design for me for the kit. Quite a challenge for them as they're used to dealing with the big boys and their huge budgets. I'm at the other end of the scale, but even with the most minimal stripped down kit possible, I'm still looking at the thick end of £100k!

And that's before I get on to the conversion of the farm building. I've yet to get a cost for this, but working on it. Appointed an architect who reckoned I couldn't do it with the budget I'd set, but that was assuming top-notch insulation, new roof, floor, renewable heating source, etc. I'm torn between wanting to be as low energy as possible, having the place look like a distillery and not an office, and my budget. Work in progress.

Finally, at the moment, I don't even know if the services to the farm are up to job, so there could be a potential massive cost of upgrading the leccy supply, drainage, water and so forth.

Still, it's keeping me busy 😉

And thanks to Craig from this parish for recommending Susanne Masters to me. She's keen to do some work for me suggesting botanicals, but I'm not keen on her price, sadly. Maybe eventually...

Cheers Kit.

Good luck and keep us updated regularly!

Kit,

You're not converting the old Pottery place are you. I saw signs up for a distillery a couple of weeks ago and that's real near your place isn't it?

Only just spotted this thread. Really interesting!
I'm in a position where I want to start my own business full time.
Nice to read through this thread. Look forward to updates!

Best of luck.

[b]perchypanther[/b], no that's not us (although, long story, that building used to belong to my family), that's the Quintessential Gin guys. And yes, near us. We're on the Lochmaben side of Dalton. Presume you know the area - PM me and you're welcome to pop in sometime on your way past.

[b]cokie[/b], hoping it works out for you. Loads of work, hopefully very rewarding!

drainage,

I would contact SEPA and ask for a copy of the letter dated 04 June 2013 from SEPA to the Scotch Whisky Association signed by Calum MacDonald

depending on volume I would send everything to a local AD plant, you should be able to get paid for some distillers materials

Charlesfield Farm and West Roucan Farm, Tinwald are close by

Presume you know the area

We've had a caravan at Hoddom for 20 + years, so yeah, I suppose 🙂

Once you're up an running i'd love to pop along for a taste.

[i]I would contact SEPA and ask for a copy of the letter dated 04 June 2013 from SEPA to the Scotch Whisky Association signed by Calum MacDonald[/i]

Why?

Waste is probably going to go to one of our local farmers under a SEPA exemption but that only covers the wash. Cleaning products and chemicals for fermentation might need dealing with separately.

[i]We've had a caravan at Hoddom for 20 + years[/i]

So you'll have been round the mountainbike track then? 😉 More than welcome to pop in. Any news of imminent openings will be posted here, hopefully!

I just applied for the brewing and distilling MSc at Heriot Watt, though my idea is to set up a brewery eventually. Will be good to see how you get on!

your story sounds very similar to Born in the Borders. Chap there has set up successful brewery based on plough to pint principles and seems to be doing well. He has now converted farm stead on his estate (Chesters) for brewery, deli, cafe and he also has a micro gin distillery in there as well. The whole brand is very active in local pub, festivals etc. They now also run a couple of cafes (in Tweedbank and Gala train stations) and various other ventures.)

He was first seen on Channel 4 Country House Rescue programme with a slightly crumbling estate and a daunting future. It has been really good seen his business develop. From my side of the fence he appears to be doing well, but might be useful for you to have a chat to.

[url= http://www.bornintheborders.com/ ]http://www.bornintheborders.com/[/url]

Hi
I am a mico brewer by trade , been brewing for 30 years so have some knowledge of the business.
Water , Can you get an extraction licence to draw from a clean , sustainable source? PWR require testing and monitoring but once set up its cheap. We have a borehole with 2 stage filtration, plus UV .
Waste water. Expensive to put to drain , a small scale reed bed system with settling tank might work for you.

Waste grains , get a local cow farmer on board . Treat them as a co-product to avoid silly waste transfer laws. You may need to keep a log of who has what and when.

Heating volumes of liquid , direct gas fired or steam is probably the most economical. Calor tanks ( ours ask for re-fills automatically ) are reliable enough. Steam , insurance inspections and servicing expensive , nice heaters in the winter , overly hot in the summer .

Markets. Direct to public via farmers markets or sales after doing tours. People love a tour and most will buy something at the end. You might need some sort of accreditation before looking at regional outlets ( NSF , BRC , SALSA ) Funky glassware is a good selling point as are branded glasses and merchandise.

HMRC are relatively easy to deal with, you may be asked for a deposit or debenture but that might only apply to beer brewing.

You will need an EHO sign off before production can start
You will also need
a Fork lift truck
A set of saccherometers
A refractometer
decent thermometer
ph meter
Iodine
Spent grain bins
Grain shovel
glycol ( MPG ) chilling system .
Chemical supplier . we use Klenzan.
Grains .- Simpson Mcreath worth a look

Waste is probably going to go to one of our local farmers under a SEPA exemption but that only covers the wash. Cleaning products and chemicals for fermentation might need dealing with separately.

If you get the letter it will tell you when "Distillers Materials" are "waste" or not. As avoiding waste classification gets you out of paperwork I thought it might be useful. In addition there is the potential to get biogas from distillers materials, as it's specifically covered in the SEPA letter it should be simple to agree to send it to a agricultural AD plant and potentially get paid for it depending on strength/ transport costs. The plants suggested are under performing on the data I can see and therefore might be good to approach.

In terms of separation of liquid wastes, Distillery AD plants operate outside the permitting regime and nearly all liquids go through the AD plant and some solids in particular cases

In terms of land spreading you need to be careful of the levels of copper, what is the local soil levels and the land use (ie sheep farming is problematic)

Waste grains , get a local cow farmer on board . Treat them as a co-product to avoid silly waste transfer laws. You may need to keep a log of who has what and when.

I'll be travelling south on M74 Tues 23rd and you can buy me a coffee somewhere with a wifi connection and I can elaborate more if you need more incentive to investigate

[b]Kit[/b]: in terms of dealing with your waste you'll be able to feed draff to the coos, pot ale spread to land ([i]though needs a fair amount of admin - speak to SAC[/i]), spent lees and washings need to be treated.

As said above, balancing tank ([i]spent lees - pH ~3, caustic washings pH ~ 11[/i]) should help get it close to 7. Then a simple reed bed or I have heard of small sites like yours letting it run down long grassy slopes.

I suggest speaking with Brian Eaton. He is an independent but knows everyone and the nicest guy you'll meet. Email in my profile if you want his details or a technical chat on anything.

I work for Edrington.

Cheers!

[b]yourguitarhero[/b], good luck! Met the MSc students who are doing some projects for me at HW and they both really enjoy the course.

[b]franksinatra[/b], cheers had heard of them and will definitely get in touch to see if there's any advice there to be taken 🙂

[b]singletrackmind[/b], many thanks for your input! Hadn't thought about a borehole, but I don't think we're on an aquifer. No one round here runs off groundwater. As per other suggestions, waste will go off site, more than likely if I can satisfy either the farmer or the AD of suitability. We're not on mains gas, and no one round here appears to run off Calor. Not sure why, but must be a reason people prefer oil. That's what I plan to run a steam boiler off, as a leccy-powered heated oil system is too much for our supply. Noted re: maintenance costs. Also noted on glassware, although your accreditation acronyms mean nowt to me 😀 Not planning on any formal visitor facilities (yet) as that would require an upgrade to the entrance of the farm, additional license, facilities, etc. But probably a longer term project if things work. Good to know about HMRC, I was dreading applying for my licenses with them! And noted on the kit list, hopefully I'll be given this by the process engineers.

[b]big_n_daft[/b], OK thank you. I'd looked at the SEPA exemptions and didn't know what counted as 'Distillery Waste', so will get a formal clarification. For land spreading, it's up to the farmer. I'll provide him with an analysis of the waste and leave it to him to make that call. He's a conscientious guy, so I've no worries there. But we also have a local AD who might be interested. Interested to know how you know so much about this; do you work for SEPA? If you've got the time to spare, I'm free 23rd. Email me Kit[dot]Carruthers[@]gmail[dot]com. cheers.

[b]teacake[/b], thanks, I'll ping you something soon.

Well...got a rough, but good, idea on the capital needed to get this thing off the ground 😯

The adage about picking a number and doubling it applies here, no doubt. Although, to be fair, a very large portion of the budget costs are VAT (reclaimable, hopefully) and contingency (not needed, again hopefully). Now looking at what grant options are available, and wondering whether I'd have any success with crowd funding. I'm going to need at least some outside capital to make it 'affordable'!

Energy is still a big issue. Probably looking now at running a diesel genny for working the still as a) I can't be arsed with the hassle associated with a steam boiler and b) our grid connection is crap, ruling out a small solar PV array. Not exactly green, but it'll have to do at the start.

Need to tidy up a couple of unknowns, and then I'll be putting in my planning application. Fingers crossed it goes smoothly!

Direct gas fired hot water tank ?
If you making a mash then fermenting the wort then alot of hot water will be required.
[url= http://www.gpburners.co.uk/prodotto.asp?language=&id_prod=89 ]miniflam burners[/url]

Then a nice 4" SS heat coil inside your hot water tank.

China make cheapo tanks , then Greece (olympic) then czech republic and ze germans .
huge feilds of second hand tanks in the UK, Centrplant, Moody , ABUK are some and there are others

We're not on mains gas, and Calor gas is by far the most expensive fuel option (so I'm led to believe anyway, no one round here uses it).

90% of your energy will be for distillation (assuming 2 pot still batch process).

How you heat the still will impact the flavour and ease of control.

[quote=Kit ]yourguitarhero, good luck! Met the MSc students who are doing some projects for me at HW and they both really enjoy the course.

I got in. Now off to visit loads of distilleries this summer because I don't actually know how spirits are made!

Competition is brewing;
http://www.chefsinscotland.co.uk/news/news/galldachd-na-h-alba-brewery/

You manage. Tues night ride @Ae? jamesmio and one or 2 others from here go.

Fellow farmer/biker/brewer, Dave might have some words of wisdom;
http://speyvalleybrewery.co.uk/our-story/

JnrT is an engineer; https://cochran.co.uk/news/general/we-build-small-boilers-too-starting-at-455kg-ph

Indeed [b]teacake[/b], and it's a major issue for me. Being in a rural location with poor energy infrastructure and shallow pockets, it's going to be a compromise whichever route I go down.

[b]yourguitarhero[/b], ace, well done! I have no idea how to distil either, but I'll figure it out 😉

Saw that article in today's Standard, [b]Trekster[/b]. Although good luck to him. Setting up in the centre of Lockerbie in a terrace of houses, without planning permission or staff, he's about the level of preparedness that I'm at!

Don't ride much these days, but I should try and get myself out. Drop me an email with details and I'll get along sometime!

I looked at Cochran's for boilers. Their 'small' boilers are about double the capacity I'd need, unfortunately.

UPDATE 7/7/17:

Planning permission in and registered, so let's see what the local authority have to say.

Three licence applications off to HMRC (distiller's, warehouse keeper, excise warehouse).

Been on a short course with Brewlab in Sunderland to learn more about distilling and the industry. Was very interesting, although ho much of it was relevant, I'm not sure!

My students are Heriot-Watt seem to be doing well with their projects. Was up a couple of times to see them do desktop distillations and do a few tastings.

[img] ?oh=07f621b9e06d898243b27464089d698a&oe=59C6899A[/img]

Business plan finished and the financials pretty much figured out. This leads me to be neck-deep in paperwork for funding applications as I try and secure £100k of public grants and a business loan (about 1/3 of the total project cost)!

Cheers,
Kit

Hi Kit, good luck in your venture.
I'm in the Off trade and currently stock over 80 gins and have hundreds available to me within 3 days order>delivery from Hammonds of Knutsford.
We're North England (Yorkshire) based in a fairly affluent town.
Gin has been the big thing for a year or two and specifically gins that have a unique selling point in their botanicals. The main feedback from customers seems to be buying from us as a result of them trying these gins at fairs, Gin Fairs, farmers markets, agricultural shows, Also from local Gin bars and pubs/restaurants.
Our biggest selling Premium gins are currently:
Sharish, a blue coloured gin that turns pink when you add tonic, novelty.

Slinsby's Rhubarb Gin, made locally in Harrogate and unique Rhubarb taste (really easy sell with tasting stock).

Brockmans Gin. Unique wild berry fruits taste, quite sweet, goes well with Ginger ale, Gin for people who don't particularly like gin, gin for the alcopop generation etc. Local gin bar and pubs really push it with ginger ale and then punters come to us and buy a bottle (also really easy sell with tasting stock).

Whittaker's Gin made locally in Harrogate, their USP being that they've won a trade award with their Pink Peculiar, but also sells well because they bottle in 50cls so the price appears reasonable for an award winning premium gin (£24).

Liqueur Gins, 20% abv rather than normal gin @40%+. The main ones being Edinburgh Gin (Rhubarb & Ginger our best seller) and Zymurgorium range. We're currently pushing Edinburgh Gin Rhubarb and Ginger liqueur with Appletizer to make a Rhubarb and Apple crumble liqueur drink (again, appeals to the alcopop generation and people with a sweet tooth or who don't particularly like straight gin and tonic).

We sell the odd bottle of all the other stuff often mentioned here, Silent Pool, bathtub, Opihr etc. Some sell because they're now heavily pushed in the Supermarkets. But of the premium retailer who stocks a premium range, it seems to me that you need a USP to sell more, tasting stock and maybe people in store and/or at regional events to push the product.

There's talk within our business that Gin interest will tail off, but I haven't experienced that yet.

UPDATE 8/9/17

Still waiting on planning permission. Apparently I needed a bat and barn owl survey, which my architect neglected to tell me about. That delayed things by a month, but all that info is in now. Not heard anything else from the Council, but they're apparently hugely understaffed, so God knows when I'll hear.

Have been awarded my first bit of grant money. Well, I got an email 3 weeks ago to that effect. No paperwork as yet! That will cover 50% of my branding and online presence work. Quite positive about another small grant from Scottish Enterprise to help with the bottle design for my first product.

The big pot of cash is from a fund called LEADER. That's £50k's worth, decision due next Thursday. Positive noises throughout the feedback process, so hoping that'll come good.

Been round a few distilleries: Arbikie, Glasgow Distillery and Annandale Distillery. I actually got a whole day with the Annandale guys. Mark and Daz, who run the distillery operations, are top guys and I learned LOADS in a day with them. Great experience, and has got my pumped for my own project.

My distilling licenses were rejected, on account of me not having a distillery for HMRC to inspect. Naively, I thought they'd be able to give feedback through the establishment process, but apparently not. You've got to commit, build, and then apply just before you begin trading.

Yesterday, met with my design agency (Contagious in Edinburgh) and started off the process of designing the brand, product name, bottle design, etc. Really exciting stuff!

By the way, did I say that I'll be making......... rum? 🙂

You've got to commit, build, and then apply just before you begin trading.

That's mad. What if they say no?

met with my design agency (Contagious in Edinburgh)

You've already had a lot of delays and it'll take the Contagious to come up with a design?

[i] What if they say no?[/i]

Existing players get to buy some extra capacity cheap 🙁

You've already had a lot of delays and it'll take the Contagious to come up with a design?

POSTED 53 SECONDS AGO # REPORT-POST

The big pot of cash is from a fund called LEADER.

And well done, exciting to see things coming off

Rum! Good call.