[Closed] I'm a Christian, unless you're gay

Just perhaps if they where more welcomiong to minority groups they would be better thought of.

If they followed Christ's teachings then they should welcome anyone - 'Love your neighbour as yourself' or as it was succinctly translated earlier, be excellent to each other, which apart from loving God is the crux of Christianity as far as I can see.

Perhaps it's people's inability to follow Christ's teachings well that's the problem, rather than the teachings themselves?

[i]What do you mean by "Christian"?[/i]
Follower of Christ.

What do you mean by 'adhere to the rule book'?

I mean believe in what is written in the Bible and use it as a guide for living.

Now - what does it mean to "follow" someone who doesn't exist?

Ernie - I am perfectly prepared

Let people follow whatever religion and lifestyle they wish to

so long as they

mind your own **** businesses, and stop being intolerant of other people opinions concerning their own lives.

This +100. Tolerance must be a two-way street, Christianity or whatever religion cannot claim to be a victim of intolerance while it continues being intolerant to others.

I mean believe in what is written in the Bible and use it as a guide for living.

Now - what does it mean to "follow" someone who doesn't exist?

Do what Jesus said to do, or, as you put it, use it as a guide for living, would be my guess?

EDIT - ^ that.

The Catholic church for example "pontificates" on lots of contemporary issues which are not specifically mentioned in the Bible-often because followers want guidance on various issues

Bit like this forum really.

Without the humour

The thing is, no one actually knows what "Christs teachings" were. All we have is what has been remembered, collected, written-down and translated - by men - over the years. Those involved have picked and chosen (and no doubt created) whatever parts of a story they wanted/needed to in order develop and maintain a power base.

This +100. Tolerance must be a two-way street, Christianity or whatever religion cannot claim to be a victim of intolerance while it continues being intolerant to others.

TandemJeremy - Member
Ernie - I have no issue with the right to worship. My issue is with the influence they have and try to have over the lives of others.

Religion is a regressive force and causes much harm. so whilst I believe they should be free to practice as they wish I detest and abhor the negative effects they have on society as a whole - from the suppression of women in the Muslim world [b]to the millions of deaths from aids in Africa[/b]

But you do, you compared anybody with a belief system to a racist.Thank God that Christian Aid and the Catholic Relief Services don't read STW. One question TJ, is the spread of aids down to the Catholic Church? Just curious as I always thought their message was to abstain from hunka chunka.

This is from CRS's mission statement;
HIV/AIDS — CRS promotes community-based programs that help those infected, address the underlying causes of AIDS and reduce the spread of HIV. CRS is the lead agency in a consortium that is expanding the delivery of antiretroviral treatments to people infected with HIV in Africa, the Caribbean and Latin America. Funding for this venture comes from the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. In addition to this, programming addresses AIDS-related stigma, poverty and the special vulnerabilities and burdens faced by women. Included in CRS’ HIV/AIDS work is home-based care for individuals and families living with HIV/AIDS; support to orphans and vulnerable children affected by AIDS; behavior change and life skills education; voluntary counseling and testing; and projects that help increase beneficiaries’ livelihoods

I actually think that is a very sensible approach, don't you TJ?

The thing is, no one actually knows what "Christs teachings" were. All we have is what has been remembered, collected, written-down and translated - by men - over the years. Those involved have picked and chosen (and no doubt created) whatever parts of a story they wanted/needed to in order develop and maintain a power base.

Absolutely agree. So if they needed to omit or downplay the parts in the Bible that relate to gay men (nothing in there about lesbians I think) because it maintained their power base then that's progress. Thus, encouraging more liberal Christians to seek change within the church rather than leave must be a good thing for society as a whole.

I think we all agree however Christianity is not one homogenous entity.

There may be different flavours, like the fun people of the westboro baptist church, but they all have the same book, with the same things written in it.

But you do, you compared anybody with a belief system to a racist

No I did not. Thats a gross distortion of what I said. which was limits need to be placed on free speech and used the example of racism to show that limits on free speech is appropriate in a civilised society. I made it absolutely clear that what people want to do in private is up to them.

The catholic churchs position on condom use is responsible for millions of deaths and the foul blackmailing tactics they use to get governments to kowtow is indefensible. If they want to linmit the spread of AIDs the best thing they could do is spend millions on fee condoms.

Sensible apparoach to AIDS - refuse to do the one proven thing that limits transmission?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=19561

TJ, the biggest part of your problem is you.

Try this instead:

[i]No I did not. Thats a [s]gross[/s] distortion of what I said. which was limits need to be placed on free speech and used the example of racism to show that limits on free speech is appropriate in a civilised society

The catholic churchs position on condom use is [s]responsible for millions of deaths[/s] problematic and [s]the foul blackmailing tactics they sue to get governments to kowtow is indefensible[/s] their influence is misused. If they want to linmit the spread of AIDs the best thing they could do is [s]spend millions on fee condoms[/s] change their approach with regard to contraception.[/i]

Turn it down a bit; not every statement you make has to go straight to 11.

Do any of you really feel that you've gained anything during all of these pages of drivel? Really?

I went out for a ride. Then had a lovely lobster Caesar salad with a glass of chablis. This was a good thing.

You sad sacks seem to have spent all day going round in circles, somehow thinking that arguing on an obscure cycling website will change the world. It won't.

druidh - Member
The thing is, no one actually knows what "Christs teachings" were. All we have is what has been remembered, collected, written-down and translated - by men - over the years.

Maybe so, but it's probably safe to assume that Christians believe that the gospels are what Christ taught, and I reckon that if Christians all followed those teachings there wouldn't be much to object to as far as Christianity goes.

To my mind, hating people for being gay does not fit with those teachings.

Fair enough crikey

I do get incensed tho as its exactly the type of issue where a bunch religious people have done massive harm

See above TJ. But then you are always right natch. Answer the question, is that not a good set of plans to target the spread of Aids?

Absolutely agree. So if they needed to omit or downplay the parts in the Bible that relate to gay men (nothing in there about lesbians I think) because it maintained their power base then that's progress. Thus, encouraging more liberal Christians to seek change within the church rather than leave must be a good thing for society as a whole.

So we come back again to what it means to be Christian. It means to follow what is in the Bible (or just the Jesus bits, if you like), but what the Bible says is up for interpretation by anyone, so you can do what you want, and still say you are following Jesus. Convenient !!!

You sad sacks seem to have spent all day going round in circles, somehow thinking that arguing on an obscure cycling website will change the world. It won't.

It won't ?? Disappointed 🙁

[i]I do get incensed tho as its exactly the type of issue where a bunch religious people have done massive harm [/i]

That's OK, it's fine to be passionate about issues, but as you have said; the medium of text loses so much of normal interaction, so people can only respond to what they see.

It's like talking to someone who is blind; you have to be clear and concise and above all, considerate about the image others construct of you from the info they have.

Sorry, got my charge nurse head on!

duckman - Member

See above TJ. But then you are always right natch. Answer the question, is that not a good set of plans to target the spread of Aids?

No - it is responsible for increasing the spread of aids. Teh only sensible approach would be to promote condom use.

The typical patient is a young woman between 18 and 30 years of age. She is wheeled into the examining room in a hospital chair or dragged in, supported by her sister, aunt, or brother. She is frequently delirious; her face is gaunt; her limbs look like desiccated twigs. Surprisingly, the young woman is already a mother many times over, yet she will not live to see her children grow up. More shocking still, she is married; her husband infected her with the deadly virus.

This is the reality: [b]a married woman living in Southern Africa is at higher risk of becoming infected with HIV than an unmarried woman[/b]. [b]Extolling abstinence and fidelity, as the Catholic Church does, will not protect her; in all likelihood she is already monogamous. [/b]It is her husband who is likely to have HIV. Yet refusing a husband’s sexual overtures risks ostracism, violence, and destitution for herself and her children.

[b]Given these realities, isn’t opposing the use of condoms tantamount to condemning countless women to death?[/b] In the midst of the AIDS epidemic, which has already killed tens of millions and preys disproportionately on the poor, the condom acts as a contra mortem and its use is justified by the Catholic consistent ethic of life.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=19561

Do any of you really feel that you've gained anything during all of these pages of drivel? Really?

I went out for a ride. Then had a lovely lobster Caesar salad with a glass of chablis. This was a good thing.

You sad sacks seem to have spent all day going round in circles, somehow thinking that arguing on an obscure cycling website will change the world. It won't.

We were just killing time while we waited to hear what you had for lunch. Thanks goodness you've taken the trouble to tell us. 🙂

Yes, but shouting (metaphorically) at chubby British mountain bikers will not change that scenario. In some ways it detracts from the real issue because of the way you express it..

Kenny, it was superb, let me tell you! Lovely lobster tails in a delightfully light batter, with a perfect amount of parmesan, sauce and lettuce. Oh, and some very delicate garlic croutons. And my favourite premier cru Chablis - Montee de Tonerre, to wash it all down.

🙂

Duckman - this is the best way to reduce the transmission of HIV

Condoms and HIV prevention
Condom use is a critical element in a comprehensive, effective and sustainable
approach to HIV prevention and treatment
Prevention is the mainstay of the response to AIDS. Condoms are an integral and essential
part of comprehensive prevention and care programmes, and their promotion must be
accelerated. In 2007, an estimated 2.7 million people became newly infected with HIV. About
45% of them were young people from 15 to 24 years old, with young girls at greater risk of
infection than boys.
The male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce
the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

Lovely lobster tails in a delightfully light batter

😕 Who had the rest of the lobster then ?

So what does it mean to be a "Christian"? Do you believe in the Bible, or in some subset of the Bible that appeals to you? Don't misunderstand, if you want to believe in fairy stories of any description, that's fine with me, but I just don't see what is the point of identifying oneself as a "Christian" if one does not actually adhere to the rule book.

No idea, never been a Christian. My wife is a Catholic and does indeed seem to pick and choose what bits to believe in. She's a tolerant soul, or we wouldn't have got married 😉 To answer the second question from a bystanders point of view, I guess she takes comfort from her faith without needing to follow all the rules.

BTW, if you want to refer to people's beliefs as fairy stories, that implies very strongly that you [b]aren't[/b] fine with it, unless you are generally a rude person. I share none of my wifes beliefs but I'm able to discuss them without denigrating her position.

[i]Kenny, it was superb, let me tell you! Lovely lobster tails in a delightfully light batter, with a perfect amount of parmesan, sauce and lettuce. Oh, and some very delicate garlic croutons. And my favourite premier cru Chablis - Montee de Tonerre, to wash it all down[/i].

No gravy?
Not a hint of pie?
Distinct lack of chips?
Absence of beer?

Do you need a loan old chap? Times a bit hard?

Kenny, it was superb, let me tell you! Lovely lobster tails in a delightfully light batter, with a perfect amount of parmesan, sauce and lettuce. Oh, and some very delicate garlic croutons. And my favourite premier cru Chablis - Montee de Tonerre, to wash it all down.

Pretty much what I had! - Fish finger sandwich and garlic bread. And some Schloer.

Captain, have there been any decent vintages of Chablis recently? Have to be honest, thought you'd be a Grand Cru man myself 😉 Where's the Montee do Tonerre from, and does it have the mineral quality that I associate with good Chablis but find so hard to find?

RichP, Montée de Tonnerre is perhaps the best blend of value and taste that you can find in an old world white. Delicious with seafood.

Mineral? Yes, but also somewhat light and fruity with it.

This is my pick;
[img] [/img]

Wow flash awesome

A thread is not a thread without you pointing out how rubbish it is or what psuedo upper class toffs outing you have done since it started.
Thanks

Ps lay off the wine as it seems to make you whine 😉

Junky, just trying to highlight the futility of the arguments on here by posting something equally pointless and inane! 😉

It was a lovely lunch, mind you.

CFH does it have a nice buttery finish, where is it from, I like a nice full on buttery Chardonnay.

Cheers Captain, as I feared though it's £25-30 a bottle so approaching what GC costs anyway. I've been spoiled as to what Chablis is I think, some friends returned from Burgundy a few years back with a well aged bottle and it was stunning. Am starting to think that what I found so special might also be present in wines from, say, Alsace though.

[i]Ladies and Gentlemen, our regular broadcast will resume shortly. Thank you for you cooperation[/i]

😆

And what would our wine buff recommend to compliment a black pudding supper?

Duckman, that needs beer. Hearty, full bodied beer.

Might I recommend a bottle of Fuller's Golden Pride?

Good thread this. Topical, for the time of year and all that.

I'd like to wade in a wee bit.

Slightly OT, but tts interesting that so many would eradicate faith and religion entirely from society, or at least "The State" (whatever that is). Here's a thought for them-

What fosters tolerance?

Here's an imaginary scenario for you:

Imagine we lived in a world where we all had the same hair-colour, eye colour, were of similar height, enjoyed the same music, same books, and agreed on our politics. In short, the differences between us were so scant that they were practically non-existent. In this world, there would be no need for any kind of tolerance, for tolerance only exists where it is required.

I don't live in this world, and know that none of you do, either. I can see children growing up and making choices in opposition to their parents wishes, just because they want to be different. Political parties with opposing views, borne out of their traditions, their convictions and a desire to be in power. Schisms in religious groups over articles of faith and dogma. And so on.

Humans by their nature will always, either because of environmental change, or competition for food, or desire for a mate, or even a desire for immortality, wilfully find ways to be different, to stand apart and be noticed, to advance, change, survive, in whatever way they can. Its part of what got us down from the trees in the first place. Accepting this means accepting the need for tolerance, born out of recognising differences in others, the differences in ourselves, and finding a way to live with the difference.

So is "faith", or religious practice, divisive? I would say that, generally anyway, no- after all, different faiths reflect the society we all live in and the differences within it, and homogenising society would not lead to greater tolerance- just the opposite in fact. What happens when these children go out into the wide world and find we're not all the same? How do they learn to cope as adults when all they've known is bland sameness?

We need instead to flex the muscle of tolerance and celebrate difference, otherwise it will grow flaccid and atrophy. Accept our differences instead of attempting what amounts to cultural fascism. It won't work, and you know why? Because differences spring up as a reaction to homogeneity. Suppression = growth.

Christ, btw, never turned away thieves and prostitutes, and though I can't speak for him, I have the impression that if he was around today they'd be welcome in his tent. The outcasts (and for all the advances they've made, in many parts of society homosexuals are sadly still outcasts) were always welcome at his table.

There's a vast difference between canon and what the man did, I feel.

Anyway, to get back to the original subject of the thread...

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Kenny, it was superb, let me tell you! Lovely lobster tails in a delightfully light batter, with a perfect amount of parmesan, sauce and lettuce. Oh, and some very delicate garlic croutons. And my favourite premier cru Chablis - Montee de Tonerre, to wash it all down.

What are you, some sort of poof?

codybrennan

Tolerance - once the religious tolerate the non religious and allow us to go about our lives without them attempting to tell us what to do then they can be accepted. Until they keep it to consenting adults in private they have to be challenged. How many more must die because of religion?

So is "faith", or religious practice, divisive? I would say that, generally anyway, no

The thing is this thread is about the churches view of homosexuality, and most people on here have an open minded view,the ones who dont, dont post just incase theyre seen as homophobic, and theyre not usually christians, but use the term the bible says ....................................,to defend their views, sometimes violently, and does the church say anything NO.

Allowing condom use should have nothing at all to do with an old bloke in rome, it should be individuals right to decide, wether they want to catch some debilitating illness, or survive.

What are you, some sort of poof?

What's fosters tolerance?

The strange inbuilt ability to drink vast quantities of weak Aussie lager whilst watching England win an Ashes series down under.

TJ tbf to the catholic church they do say don't have sex which is a decent way not to contract aids. The fact that It's been shown that the scheme doesn't really work in the real world suggests either wilful stupidity or more worryingly they don't care. The intervention they do is more indefensible. Anyway "Catholic church makes people get aids" is a bit contentious argument.

Flashy arguing the toss is what blokes do, whether its religion or wot tyres on STW or "was that really a penalty" or "the trouble with arsenal is....." down the pub, given the choice um sure everyone here would have gone for a ride and had a slap up meal (something less nobby for me please) but instead we're stuck somewhere with only an internet connection for entertainment....... and you can only watch so much octopron before you feel a bit dirty.

Anyway this wasnt sposed to be a religious bashing thread it was sposed to be a let's all be nice thread