[Closed] I'm a Christian, unless you're gay

bottom of the barrel scraping at its very best

Maybe you shouldn't view intolerance as a target

This is not my aim an I was simply suggesting that the church and the religious are hypocrits...be rude about gays and anyone else not in their big book of facts [heathens] whilst asking for tolerance for themselves to be mean.

As their record on tolerance is not great and perhaps they should - as christian values are what this society is built on -enjoy the rich irony of reaping what they have sown.

yes we should all be excellent to each other but if you have not been doing this for 2 millennia it is a bit rich to complain when you are on the receiving end.
I can understand why people are like this.

are you trying to start an argument TJ? thats three times you've said the same thing.

8)

but unlike the offensive Xtians you'll still show them love, right?

The offensive assumption of superiority.
The offensive patronising behaviour.

Oh, teh ironing!

I find being told what I can and cannot do and being told I am a morally inferior person offensive.

Me too, TJ. So, I'll keep hunting. I'll go fishing. I'll eat foe gras. I'll drive a car with a lumping great engine. Etc. In fact, I'll try and find things you don't like, and I'll do them. You'll tell me what I can and cannot do, you'll tell me I'm a morally inferior person. Just because I don't conform to [i]your[/i] view of what is acceptable.

Stop assuming your own superiority. Let other people have the freedom you pretend to believe in.

project

Northern Ireland ( simplified) -Loyalism vs Republicanism
and now(hardly new?) Church vs Gay people-Read my earlier post and link to see how homosexuality is accepted to varying degress within Christianity
muslims vs the rest- WTF? Over 2 billion Muslims in the world.I take you are referring to extremist groups like "Al Quaeda"
They just don't know when to cease hostilities-How many religious organisations are at war?

CFH - there is a huge difference as I am sure you know.

I think you are wrong on some of those things - not a lessor being. I don't offer to pray for you to save you, I attempt to persuade you.

a lot of church goes dont agree or even like anything gay, because their big book tells them so, propogated by an old chap who should retire.

Idont like a lot of things christians do, but i accept its the way of life theyve chosen for themselves, i just dont want to see their propoganda all around me.

Alo show many of these so proclaimed christians attend church every sunday, especially when John Lewis is calling.

a lot of church goes dont agree or even like anything gay, because their big book tells them so, propogated by an old chap who should retire.

There are a lot of people that aren't church goers that "don't even like anything gay" I think people like that are just intolerant tools it doesn't mean I judge the whole of society as such. How many Christians live their life exactly as they are told by a priest or by the bible? Very few I would expect. They like anyone else will cherry pick the bits of Christianity that suit the way they want to live their life.

I think you are wrong on some of those things - not a lessor being. I don't offer to pray for you to save you, I attempt to persuade you.

. Don't tell me what I can and cannot do,

and abortion, and child sex abuse by their staff.

I have to say Ernie I find your unquestioning support of the religious sitting strangely at odds with your usual stance.

You mean my usual stance concerning that people should be free to live the lives they choose free from offensive insults ..... including gay people and Christians ?

And yeah you're right, I give unquestioning support to the right of people to practice their religions free of hate. Unlike you I see it as one of the most basic and fundamental human right. Which btw keeps me firmly in step with the UN and global opinion on the matter. I make no apology for my stance.

[img] [/img]

I would just like to say a big thank you to the Christians for the Easter bank holidays and Christmas.

project
Don't want to sound patronising but you are getting thnigs a little mixed up.
abortion-is a complex ethical issue which is governed by laws made by parliament and upon which many groups including religious ones have an opinion.
It is not mentioned in the Bible nor did Jesus pronounce on the subject AFAIK(not meaning to be flippant)
child sex abuse is wrong,covering up child sex abuse is also wrong . No argument from anyone on that one.
Allegedly Joseph married Mary when she was 12 and Mohammed consomethinged his marriage with his wife Aisha when she was 9 although they had been married several years.

aye replying to your gentle repetitive trolls is indeed the bottom of the barrel in debate terms.

You haven't replied to my comments at all Junkyard......and why would you ? Even you I'm sure can recognise the stupidity of responding to someone's displeasure to the term "god botherer" on this forum with some half-cock nonsense about what Christians did to Galileo 400 years ago, when it's pointed out to you.

You didn't respond in any meaningful way and I didn't expect you to.

Ernie - I have no issue with the right to worship. My issue is with the influence they have and try to have over the lives of others.

Religion is a regressive force and causes much harm. so whilst I believe they should be free to practice as they wish I detest and abhor the negative effects they have on society as a whole - from the suppression of women in the Muslim world to the millions of deaths from aids in Africa

So Ernie - do you think the freedom of religion should allow the oppression of women? The treatment of women in some muslim countries would appear to be against fundamental freedoms.

I am confused you say i did not reply then I did not reply meaningfully which are you claiming?
FWIW I replied twice once I used your name and once I quoted you...I am sorry I will try and make it clearer for you next time to try and stop you getting confused.

I think this may be the pointless arguments to which STW towers refer and I think they have a point.

Even TJ's getting confused.Happy to be corrected on this but
AFAK it is not Islam per se that oppresses women in some parts of the world but more a cultural, educational and power issue. The Saudi treatment of women for example.
Muslim women on my street appear to lead full and active lives as does my Muslim female GP and my recently divorced Muslim female co worker.

Hang on, hang on, hang on.... Poetry break. Here's Uncle Philip:

Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence,
Move forward, run my hand around the font.
From where I stand, the roof looks almost new-
Cleaned or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
"Here endeth" much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes s**** briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.

Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate, and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?

Or, after dark, will dubious women come
To make their children touch a particular stone;
Pick simples for a cancer; or on some
Advised night see walking a dead one?
Power of some sort or other will go on
In games, in riddles, seemingly at random;
But superstition, like belief, must die,
And what remains when disbelief has gone?
Grass, weedy pavement, brambles, buttress, sky,

A shape less recognizable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,

Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation -- marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these -- for whom was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;

A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

nick - its done in the name of islam with the imans pronouncing on what women can and cannot do.

Chris Hitchens once said that after he had lost his Marxist Faith, it felt like an amputated arm. No longer there, but still itching...

Hang on, hang on, hang on.... Poetry break.

Thought it would last just a TAD longer... 😕

Mr Woppitt...you read...poetry??
Poetry Face off Atheist vs Believers

I'd just like to say a big thank you to the pagans for the Easter bank holiday and Christmas , though if any one can make Jesus's birthday a holiday I'm willing not to go to work on Jan the 4th too .

I am confused you say i did not reply then I did not reply meaningfully which are you claiming?

So easily confused eh ? You responded to my post but not my comment, which as I say, is hardly surprising. That is what is meant by "not replying in a meaningful way". Hope that helps and you're a little less confused now 🙂

Mr Woppitt...you read...poetry??

Yes. What do you think of that one?

Not too shabby.
I retort,hastily with this mainly because it contains the word gay and god!

i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun's birthday; this is the birth
day of life and of love and wings: and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any--lifted from the no
of all nothing--human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)

Oh dear. G'night. 😐

Happy Eostre everybody.. 🙂

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Some Koran verses for you Nick:

4 : 34

4 :11

IIRC the Koran allows men up to four wives. How many husbands can a woman have?

There's sexual discrimination throughout the Koran.

Yes you are right many christinas don’t follow the word of god and pick and choose which bits they like and will follow.

Isn't that bit like saying you play football, except for the bit about off-side? If you want to believe it's a good thing to be nice to each other and all that, fine, go ahead. But the rules of the Christianity game are that you believe in the Bible. It's not a buffet.

But is it really as straightforward as picking isolating individual verses and taking that as an absolute, or does it all need to be looked at in context - historical, limitations of translation, language of the time and so on?

I don't know if this is correct or not, but I have read that the original version of Genesis doesn't talk about six 'days' as we know them, but 'ages' of unspecified length. If that is correct, it renders much (not all) of the creationist vs evolutionist argument irrelevant.

And the phrase 'turn the other cheek', wasn't that, in that culture at that time, an act of defiance rather than an act of submission as we think today?

I'm sure that's how some Christians would see it. I don't know if it's the same for the Koran?

I'm not well read on such things, and am no theologian, so I don't know the answer, but I wonder if it might be a bit naive to take every single verse in the Bible literally?

Anyway, as you were.

Edukator

You are no doubt quite correct.The Old Testament is also full of archaic nonsense and the New Testament too , to a lesser degree and clearly religious fundamentalism is nonsense.IMHO it is about the themes.Some things are as relevant today as then...not eating rock badgers excepted!
TJ-Even Muslim scholars argue about sharia law etc and dispute about jihad and much more besides.Doesn't stop some for using it as a justification for their murderous,cruel and opressive actions in the same way as "christians" used the bible throughout European history.None of that is in doubt or being argued about.
These things were of their time,as much so as early scientific writings.I think that is fairly obvious.
Oh and Thomas Edison wasn't an Atheist btw whichever thread it was mentioned on 🙂

IIRC the Koran allows men up to four wives. How many husbands can a woman have?

There's sexual discrimination throughout the Koran.

Not in the UK - they can't have four wives here. So it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that that particular issue is one which can be used as justification for not tolerating religion.

Furthermore the historical reasons for polygamy in Islam are far from being purely to the detriment of woman. Central to reason for polygamy was the reality that wars caused a disproportionate of widows over widowers, so partly for that reason polygamy allowed women the opportunity to remarry and not necessarily live a life of poverty and destitution.

Before the advent of Koran the culture in the Arabian region allowed a limitless amount of wives, it could be and sometimes was, several hundred, the Koran limited it to just 4.

But quite apart from the historical character of the Koran, no one in the UK is forced to follow it. They can even start their own Islamic religion which demands monogamy, celibacy, or whatever they fancy.

The arguments offered on this thread to justify the suppression of religion are totally spurious. Let people follow whatever religion and lifestyle they wish to, mind your own ****ing businesses, and stop being intolerant of other people opinions concerning their own lives.

+1 ernie

Isn't there something in the Old Testament that says that widows should be taken as wives by their dead husband's brothers .Similar principle.
It was of it's time as was much of the advice on how to live.

Isn't that bit like saying you play football, except for the bit about off-side?

A good analogy, because it makes my point for me 😀

In recent years, the offside rule has been [b]changed[/b]. It was changed to make the game more positive.

Likewise I hope that the various religions will be moderated by their members, so social changes like acceptance of homosexuality or contraception would be promoted by (all of) the church as well. And that would [b]never[/b] happen if all religious people thought as you did. I'm very happy that people can reconcile being a Christian with not being a homophobe because I would never want people to have to chose between the two.

Ernie - I am perfectly prepared

Let people follow whatever religion and lifestyle they wish to

mind your own **** businesses, and stop being intolerant of other people opinions concerning their own lives.

So to you the fact that millions have died of aids and will continue to do so because of the catholic church teaching on aids is acceptable?

RichPenny - Member
Likewise I hope that the various religions will be moderated by their members, so social changes like acceptance of homosexuality or contraception would be promoted by (all of) the church as well. And that would never happen if all religious people thought as you did. I'm very happy that people can reconcile being a Christian with not being a homophobe because I would never want people to have to chose between the two.

Likewise I hope that the various religions will be moderated by their members, so social changes like acceptance of homosexuality or contraception would be promoted by (all of) the church as well. And that would never happen if all religious people thought as you did. I'm very happy that people can reconcile being a Christian with not being a homophobe because I would never want people to have to chose between the two.

So what does it mean to be a "Christian"? Do you believe in the Bible, or in some subset of the Bible that appeals to you? Don't misunderstand, if you want to believe in fairy stories of any description, that's fine with me, but I just don't see what is the point of identifying oneself as a "Christian" if one does not actually adhere to the rule book.

But what do you mean by 'adhere to the rule book'?

But if the bible is the word of God, you might have to wait a while for the original Author to do his revisions.

More chance of Blatter allowing goaline technology....

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/mar/02/sepp-blatter-ifab-goalline-technology ]The Second Coming is nigh[/url]

But what do you mean by 'adhere to the rule book'?

What do you mean by "Christian"?

'adhere to the rule book'?

Every sport and religion along with workplace has its set of rules, most of us decide which ones to obey sometimes,or the workplace or sport adapts them to suit the current thinking, the thing is with religion , they just cant adapt to 21 st century ideas, and are still living in the past,instead of adopting newer rules.

Just perhaps if they where more welcomiong to minority groups they would be better thought of.

What do you mean by "Christian"?

Follower of Christ.

What do you mean by 'adhere to the rule book'?

project

I don't wait till you comment just to have a go honest but seems I have been doing so lately!
The Catholic church for example "pontificates" on lots of contemporary issues which are not specifically mentioned in the Bible-often because followers want guidance on various issues.It is often wrong IMHO.This is men saying what god' s view is supposed to be.A flawed process.
Many of the various religious faith groups were set up because they felt their views were not welcome in the established groups including the things you mention about minority groups .