[Closed] I'm a Christian, unless you're gay

Well I'm back from Afan (great weekend riding BTW, fantastic route around the Gower peninsula too) and I see apologists at it again.

The whole argument is pretty simple really.

If you're a christian and you read the bible then I guess you think homosexuality is "wrong". You're wrong. 100% wrong. So wrong you could be winner of the Wrongest Wronger in the Biggest Wrong Contest of the Glen of the McWrongs in Wrongsville.

If you're a christian and you read the bible and think that homosexuality is OK then I'd be happy to have a beer with you (on the understanding that you don't blather on about your religion or I'll start talking about gay sex).

If you're a atheist/agnostic (like moi) and think homosexuality is wrong then you're most probably second in the above contest. Some would say winner, due to the fact you don't have a Big Book of Stories to fall back on.

If you're a atheist/agnostic and think homosexuality is OK then you are more than welcome to join us for that beer. Mine's a lager, by the way. We can talk about bikes and going to Afan. Did I mention I have just come back from there? Lovely time on the Whites Level. Cleared final descent of Y Wal too! 😀

Lager? You big ...oh...

If you're a christian and you read the bible and think that homosexuality is OK then I'd be happy to have a beer with you (on the understanding that you don't blather on about your religion or I'll start talking about gay sex)

Anyway "Catholic church makes people get aids" is a bit contentious argument.

* JOKE

Belief in the Christ and the message of hope is what defines Christianity, not adherence to 2000 year old middle-eastern social conventions. The old churches tie themselves in knots over dogma, the power of modern Islam and the scorn of the Atheists. Meanwhile, Christians quietly get on with loving God and all fellow men; Amen to that!

Happy Easter to one and all.

As usual Adam says it better than me

Apart from the bit about sex, that never works for me 😕

... Go on, my child.... 😆

+1 for Buzz.

TJ has a point. The catholic "pro-life" organisation puts up posters like this:

[img] http://e-deo.typepad.fr/.a/6a01156fa733b9970c0120a5825026970c-800wi [/img]

The old churches tie themselves in knots over dogma

Heretic.

What you need is a good stretch in the rack my man.

Adam, you need to post about your weekend here

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/describe-your-best-dayweekend-on-a-bike-ever

especially as I'm trying to get the thread off the ground 😉

Got a GPS log of your Gower route?

Some of the somewhat poisonous stuff here about the church seems an awful long way from my own experience. Oppressive.

[b]clubber[/b] - done!

[b]oldnpastit[/b] - not mine. Ye gods I have been at the tail end of christian bile due to my sexuality. Oppressive nasty stuff indeed. And I only wear lycra for cycling. Though if David Beckham asked nicely I'm sure I could accommodate. 😉

[b]emsz[/b]: don't be soft. One day I'd love to meet you for real. I think you're fab! 😀

[b]buzz[/b]: difficult unless someone with sense could rip up the bible and replace it with a single page that basically says something like "This Jesus bloke died for your sins, just be excellent to each other!". Though I guess even if you did schisms would happen based upon what the word 'excellent' meant.

Afan was great by the way. Tra-la-la! 😀

Adam W,Welcome back from Afan and being Jedified, i take it, neither made you straight.

Well done for fighting the temptation. 😯

Where in scotland is Wrongsville.

Hi project!

No, didn't make me straight. Sorry folks but 'eww'. If there was a pill that would make me straight I'd flush it down the loo - even though I get loads of abuse (mickey taking and worse, much much worse) there is no way I would change who and what I am. For me being gay is abso-effing-lutely fantastic. And I hope for those who are straight that they also feel the same way about themselves.

Thought people did think it weird when I was discussing Welsh Ninja Sheep yesterday and singing the Lone Ranger theme when thundering down a hill on Saturday. 😆

Jedi is one cool dude. What others have said is true - when at Afan I kept hearing this voice telling me 'push', 'leg down!', 'push point'. It also, weirdly, helped my confidence. Strange that. I guess its the usual Jedi mind control tricks he calls into play. 😀

Wrongsville is somewhere to the north east of Scotland I think. Just close to 'Slightlyincorrecttown' and 'Youresurelymistakenham'. 😀

Ta, Adam 😉

I never ever imagined I would end up defending the Catholic church but TJ I thnik you are wrong.

Sensible apparoach to AIDS - refuse to do the one proven thing that limits transmission?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=19561
Posted 4 hours ago # Report-Post

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method which if you are a practising Catholic wouldn't be a problem.
The Guardian link above does not seems to provide any evidence.Are Catholics disproportionately HIV sufferers in Africa? It's not just Catholics who are not using condoms.Ignorance ,superstition ,culture and government incompetence are all as much to blame Mandela himself said so.
To lay the blame for the spread of HIV in Africa at the feet of the Catholic church is disingeneous and insulting to say the least. It is also not backed up by evidence.Just look on wikpaedia or at the various HIV charity websites.

nick1962:

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method which if you are a practising Catholic wouldn't be a problem.

Source please? (EDIT: read both those sites, they both put forward my argument below about pragmatism. Eh?)

I'm sort of with TJ on this one insofar as to say *anyone* (yes, that includes a strange old celibate man who tells others how to live their lives as well as others) who says condoms promote HIV/AIDS are absolutely barking.

If you chop your bits off before ever having sex it will also be a similar 'better and proven method' but similarly people are just going to ignore it. Best be pragmatic about human behaviour and suggest that condom use would help reduce the spread of the disease, no?

Why would the Catholic church recommend the use of condoms? They promote abstinence outside marriage, telling you that sex outside marriage is a sin and that bad things will happen to you if you ignore their preaching. HIV/AIDS is a (pardon the pun) god-send in that it "proves" them right. In the absence of any other proof of their superstitions, you have to give them [i]some[/i] credit for using this to their advantage.

Nick - read the links I gave.

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method

The catholic church have a lot of influence in Africa. they use this influence to stop governments distributing condomns if they can and their preachers speak out against using condoms.

they do such things as threaten to remove all aid work from a county if the governments promote condoms, they use their influence to try to get donor countries to only donate if there is a no condom policy. Tehy try to influence UN policy against condom promotion.

The spread lies about condoms

This is responsible for millions of deaths. Millions of deaths that could have been prevented if not for the interference in secular affairs of the catholic church. its unforgivable and indefensible

Condoms and HIV prevention
Condom use is a critical element in a comprehensive, effective and sustainable approach to HIV prevention and treatment. Prevention is the mainstay of the response to AIDS. Condoms are an integral and essential part of comprehensive prevention and care programmes, and their promotion must be accelerated. In 2007, an estimated 2.7 million people became newly infected with HIV. About
45% of them were young people from 15 to 24 years old, with young girls at greater risk of
infection than boys.
The male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce
the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections.

By using a condom for sex you are stopping the transfer of bodily fluids between partners, they also help in stopping pregnancies, but then to have pregnancies you need to have sex with someone else, unless you go for artificial insemmination, which defeats the object of sex to start with.

Its the sex thing catholics seem to have problems with.

Unless it involves small boys.

Allegedly.

HIV/AIDS is a (pardon the pun) god-send in that it "proves" them right.

I think you might be confusing that sort of nonsense with the kind of stuff which Christian Right in the United States bible-belt claims. The Catholic Church doesn't claim that sickness is some form of punishment from God for sinful behavour.

In fact iirc JC made a particular point of associating himself with sick and disable people who weren't allowed to enter temples because of their "uncleanliness" due to their alleged "sinfulness". He attempted to nail that myth firmly on the head - much to the disgust of the religious authorities at that time. They later crucified him for his troubles. Apparently.

In fact iirc [b]JC[/b] made a particular point of associating himself with sick and disable people

Jeremy Clarkson, or the carpenter from nazareth

Told my daughter (7) in a debate fueled by my wife who is catholic and a roady that actually Jesus was a mountain biker, as you would. She goes to the local CofE primary school and delighted in telling her class and teacher this. Miss Drew did not wholey approve... I'm glad she didn't add that God rides an Orange!

Ernie as you appear to have come back to the thread can you answer this? I am genuinely interested in how you square this

TandemJeremy - Member
Ernie - I have no issue with the right to worship. My issue is with the influence they have and try to have over the lives of others.

Religion is a regressive force and causes much harm. so whilst I believe they should be free to practice as they wish I detest and abhor the negative effects they have on society as a whole - from the suppression of women in the Muslim world to the millions of deaths from aids in Africa

TJ

If you are a practising Catholic and won't remain faithful to your wife/husband or have multiple partners or use sex workers then I'd say you ain't really a practising Catholic so breaking the "using a condom rule" isn't a big deal surely?
I read your links.Where is the evidence (to borrow one of our favourite phrases)that Catholicism's view on condom use led to millions of HIV deaths in Africa? It isn't suggested in any of the articles on the history and spread of HIV from several online sources and it doesn't suggest that Catholic non condom use is the main issue.
South Africa has nearly 7 million HIV sufferes but only 3 million Catholics.
No need to continue this[s] arguement[/s] difference of opinon 🙂 ... except to say the spread of HIV in Africa is a terrible tragedy and two middle aged men on an obscure cycling forum arguing ain't gonna help one jot.

BTW I did critcie the Pope's view on condoms earlier.
EDIT-Oh and the link about condoms you posted doesn't break down HIV sufferers into religious denomination.

Its the influence they wield over public policy affecting not just Catholics. its the relentless lies and propaganda they spread agaisnt condom use.

There is loads of evidence of the catholic churchs influence on this if you want to see it.

Ernie the religious authorities at that time in that place stoned people it was the army of occupation that crucified people but only rebel insurgents who they called by the epithet thieves and one group of which were the nazerines .

Abstinence and fidelity as advocated by the Catholic church is another better and proven method

If you think that saying to people "don't have sex" is sound advice which will prevent the spread of HIV, you're sadly, sadly mistaken. You can advocate all you like, people aren't going to stop shagging, even if you tell them god is watching (the mucky old devil).

It isn't suggested in any of the articles on the history and spread of HIV from several online sources and it doesn't suggest that Catholic non condom use is the main issue.

What is, then?

I suspect that, being generous, it doesn't help. I expect that scumbags like Matthias Rath telling them that magic water and vitamins will save them probably doesn't help matters either. But that's a whole other rant.

Ernie as you appear to have come back to the thread can you answer this? I am genuinely interested in how you square this

Yes I had noted your previous post. I have no comment to make.

I am not interested in arguing whether religion is a good thing or a bad thing. If you think that on balance religion is a bad thing, then I would suggest that you don't follow any. I leave it up to you. In the same way as I recognise that it is other people's personal choice.

No ernie thats not the question

the question is does the right to religious freedom in your opinion include the right to restrict the freedoms of the non religious?

You have very strongly criticised me for my stance on religion - in that I will oppose its influence in the secular world strongly because of the harm it does IMO.

For you is the harm done in the name of religion acceptable price for the freedom to worship?

Yo see its not just the adherents personal choice - the catholic church restricts the freedom of non catholics as one example

As i said before, condoms stop the transmission of body fluids, as well as stopping pregnacies,and gay people dont usually have theuir own babies, unless through artifical insemination and the catholic church is against the 3 , just perhaps like the unions it fears a lack of new members.

the question is does the right to religious freedom in your opinion include the right to restrict the freedoms of the non religious?

No of course not.

But I'm loathed to make that comment to you, because no doubt you are now going to come out with some bollox about sunday trading, or how church bells ringing on a sunday are offensive to nonbelievers.

the catholic church restricts the freedom of non catholics as one example

Thanks Ernie. I did feel your stance was contradictory but that clears it up.

Nick - as you point out its a pointless debate. How do they do it? By using their influence, money and power.

TJ
You mean like the Trade Unions? 😉
Enough for me now too.
Won't someone start a bash the Tories thread I miss CFH and his lifestyle snippets 🙂

ernie_lynch - Member
you are now going to come out with some bollox about sunday trading, or how church bells ringing on a sunday are offensive to nonbelievers.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4245966/Isles-fury-over-dispenser-selling-food-on-Sundays.html

Where the hell are the Western Isles ? Sounds like some god-forsaken windswept hellhole far beyond the boundary of civilization.

Down here in Rainbow Valley Croydon, we have devout god-fearing Muslims (mainly Turkish I believe) who keep their shops open 24 hours, including on the Sabbath, just so that hungry infidels need never be left wanting for a pint of milk and Snickers bar. Gawd bless'em.

🙂

oh for fks sake you guys!

Catholic anti-condom, anti-abortion and anti-gay propaganda reaches the whole population not just catholics.

[img] [/img]
from: Le Renouveau Français est un mouvement d'inspiration contre-révolutionnaire et catholique.

ah, makes me proud to be French ... 😕

I thought governments made laws?

They do. [url= http://thenextweb.com/me/2012/04/10/irans-government-to-shut-down-access-to-the-internet-by-august/ ]Here's[/url] a good one.

The government in Iran is planning to cut off Internet access nationally later in the year. The reason? The Internet "promotes crime, disunity, unhealthy moral content, and atheism".

The Iranian govt are the mods for stw and I claim my £5

I don't think religion is to blame there. It's simply being used as a tool for those in power to stay in power. To me, that's the real problem.