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Words do matter and language changes accordingly. In the Midlands my Grandad had an absolute shit hole of a factory. One of the men working there was a young black guy, my Grandad called him a classic racist name, and used it when he told us about him. As a five year old I just thought it was his name, as he always talked about him fondly, and never with malice hatred or spite. I met him once and he did some Kung fu (I’m not kidding), the finale was him karate chopping a vertical file held in a vice. The thing snapped easily and the broken bit shot across the room. I was in awe of him. Anyway it was years later when I realised what the name was and how terrible it was, it was also a name used against me, as I was pretty dark skinned as a lad, I was always outside and half Greek. When I think back it makes me cringe to think of this guy constantly hearing this, and I hope he realises my Grandad liked him so much, and I hope his days at the factory weren’t unhappy. What if some others heard it’s use and thought it was okay to call people this. What if it encouraged racist thugs who thought the rest of the community condoned their violence. What if he had a child of his own who had to hear his father called this. The word was Sambo.
Yay! Just as predicted!
I wonder how long the pub has actually had that name, if it really is a couple of hundred years old or if it is much more recent using the old local story as cover, with a nod and a wink to it's intentional double meaning.
However – if the programme is about Liverpool / scousers / set in the North West it’s NOT classed as a racist term.
Citation needed. Sounds like utter bollocks.
I think ypirguitarhero is making it all up. He's just got some old stills photographs from the Wicker Man and played around with them in Photoshop.
It's unclear to me what the actual story is here -
Are the owners of the pub changing the name? if so suck it up, don't drink there if you don't want to.
Just before you get to Calne on the A4 from Chippenham there’s a hill with a small former railway platform where the Sustrans route crosses called Black Dog Hill and Black Dog Halt. So far I’m not aware of any moves to force a name change, thankfully, because the name references ghostly black dogs that are said to haunt certain places, stories that go back millennia, possibly to pre-Celtic times.
For a while there was an actual black dog, a Labrador, that lived at some cottages just up the hill, and a former colleague at a print company in Calne nearly hit it late one dark and misty night on his way home; the daft animal was laying in the middle of the road!
This is because scousers say “going for a chinky” completely innocently when it means going for chinese food.
Once upon a time, I was a bit late arriving at a friend’s wedding reception, after missing a motorway junction. My then girlfriend and I were a bit flustered, and when another friend said, “what happened to you two? Stop off for a chinky?” When we just stared at him, not having really got our heads together yet, he stuttered a bit, and added, “or an Indian or fish and chips?”
As Kim, my g/f, was half Chinese, he thought he’d really dropped a clanger; however Kim’s family regularly used the term when referring to putting together a big meal for friends, because her dad did amazing Indian-style curries, coming from Birmingham as he did, and thought nothing of it. We had a big laugh at his discomfort. The term was in common usage here in North Wiltshire referring to getting a Chinese takeaway rather than Indian or Italian.
Probably worth noting as well that the owners are proposing changing the name to The Black Hound which suggests that the main issue is the use of the word bitch rather than reference to it being black.
This feels exactly like the kind of woke racism that John McWhorter is criticising in his new book.
Frankly, the locals should've been protesting about Greene King taking over their boozer, a far bigger problem than any name change.
with being actually racist requiring intent.
It's quite possible, indeed common, to unintentionally treat specific races or ethnicities less favourably. That is racism.
Well judetheobscure, It seems like the facts just don't like your 'feelings'.(I refer you to Frank's post just above yours.)
Though it could be that the people of 'Summer Isle' are equal opportunity offenders....
"with being actually racist requiring intent."
Racist is as racist does..
I just looked up who John McWhorter is and one of the first things I found out was that he endorses renaming buildings and schools honoring Woodrow Wilson.
Sometimes woke racism is ok I guess.
I see that the campaign has got the support of Patriots Voice, that lovely group who also run campaigns such as Help Resist the Islamification of Britain and Sadiq Khan Disrespecting the English!
I think if you have the backing of groups like that, you need to take a proper look at yourself and ask where it all went wrong.
The Blacks Head in Wirksworth has recently bowed under pressure to change it's name
@yourguitarhero come over the hill to Bathgate the first Saturday in June and celebrate a sugar plantation owner who funded the first public school in the town!
The festival has been renamed and there was a fair stramash about that.
Amongst the older generation if it rains on the parade, it's said to be 'the darkies tears'.
I could honestly see it far enough.
It’s unclear to me what the actual story is here what the actual story is here
I suspect the OP has been persuaded to move to Linlithgow against his better judgement & is therefore expressing his resentment by using this story to diss the place. As I understand it, considering it’s a small town in the middle of the Central Belt, Linlithgow is actually quite a nice place to live, but not Edinburgh obvs. Hence the willingness to hate it.
Still got the Saracens Head pub in glasgow. a place with an "interesting" clientele
@franksinatra "I think if you have the backing of groups like that, you need to take a proper look at yourself and ask where it all went wrong. "
Idiots are always going to be idiots - and groups like these are going to latch on to *anything*.
What this means that anything like this - a long standing cultural tradition which isn't racist - is always going to attract these type of people.
That doesn't mean the cultural tradition is wrong - it just means the world is full of idiots.
Still got the Saracens Head pub in Glasgow.
An old olde pub, at at least 250 years in operation.
it just means the world is full of idiots
luv u 2 x x x
dynati - I was wondering what the clientele would say if you tried to change the name - dunno if its still the same as it was back in the 70s mind you
I’m not aware of any moves to force a name change, thankfully
And in this story, there are only moves to try and prevent a name change, it seems.
If you buy a boat, it's considered bad luck not to change its name.
Eh? It’s the opposite. It’s considered very bad luck to change a boat’s name. (Unless you carry out a special name changing ceremony)
I’m neither black, nor a dog, so I don’t know if I’m offended or not. Best ask one of the STW expertsinevery****ingthing, who’ll be along shortly…
bad humour alert!
you may not be black or a dog, but you do come across as a bit of a bitch.
There is a section on the Glentress Black between posts 93 and 49 that has previously been referred to as "The Bitch" on the trail maps, although on more recent maps it is unnamed.
I have a recollection of it being named "The Black Bitch", but that might be a false memory.
TBH, if we want to be an inclusive sport in the 21st century, we need to think a bit more carefully about our trail nomenclature, which can leave a lot to be desired.
But then the world is full of ’em
Indeed it is. You should see what some of them post on STW.
The term was in common usage here in North Wiltshire
That’s pretty mild for North Wiltshire.
Stop. Stop. Stop.
The issue here is that many native Linlithgowans have been using the phrase "Black Bitch" as a collective name for years - in much the same way as folk from Newcastle area would call themselves Geordies. So, in a sense, the name is much more meaningful than just being that above a pub doorway. I can therefore see why many locals are against the name change.
And the pub name change is going to also make it illegal for them to keep doing that somehow?
I want to hear more about the pie delivering swimming dog. Modern dogs need to take a long hard look in the mirror. They don’t do anything!
Dips toe in racism thread....
What if the pub was just called "the bitch"?
I suspect it would have been renamed before now as appearing to be offensive.
I've done a quick search on pubnames.co.uk, and that is indeed the only pub listed on there with the word "bitch" in it. I don't imagine it's exhaustive. There are lots of pubs on there who's name contains the word "black".... of which not an insignificant number appear to be a bit problematic.
Its the "bitch" part that's the primarily offensive part, with the "black" part making it sound (albeit coincidentally...... one hopes) like a racial slur - and not even a subtle one.
If it was called "the black woman" (with a charming story about ye olde black lady smuggling pies to some chap on an island) then I don't think there would be any issue - the above website should a significant number of pubs being called "the black boy" or similar. No saying that those are NOT racist names, just that they aren't automatically so.
I think there are some angry boomers because somebody wants to change the name of their pub, and it conveniently overlaps with their generalised anger at woke/cancel culture.
Anyone reasonable would change the pub name to "the black hound/dog" and get on with their lives.
Well Black Boy is a good example. That's long been the common name of the Xanthorrhoea...
Xanthorrhoea plants are also known as Balga Grass Plants. ‘Balga’ is the Aboriginal word for black boy and for many years the plant was fondly known as a “Black Boy”. It is thought that the Aborigines called the plants Balga because after a bush fire had ravaged the land, the blackened trunk of the Xanthorrhoea would be revealed beneath the burned lower leaves, and would resemble a child like black figure. Others believe that the plant, with it’s bush fire blackened trunk and long flower spike resembled an Aboriginal boy wielding a spear. Whatever the case, as the years have passed, it is seen as an extremely racist name, and is thought to be very offensive to the original custodians of the land, so the plants are more commonly known as Grass Tree, because let’s face it Xanthorrhoea is a bit of a mouthful.
It's interesting that it may be that the name has effectively been translated and re-appropriated, but its currency has diminished.
At my local MTB park, the Black Boy trail was changed to Xanthy a couple of year's ago.
Yes - we went to "Chinaman's beach" here over Christmas (very nice BTW), and we discussed whether the name was/wasn't racist.
So named because that area was first populated by Chinese immigrants who set up market gardens and salt pans there.
Obviously you wouldn't refer to somebody as a "Chinaman" today - but I can't really think of why this historical name would particularly cause any offence today. Checked with a Chinese person, they agreed.
I wonder if a black woman would find a pub being called "the black bitch" offensive? I suspect they probably would.
Seems there's a lot of those Chinaman's beaches around. And they always seemed to find good beaches too 🙂
It's tricky because we tend to generalise. One black woman may be offended another may not. I know an older black woman who thinks all the cancel culture stuff is rubbish and people should suck it up. Doesn't mean she's right. Doesn't mean she's wrong.
Personally, I'm not particularly bothered about the pub name. I don't have much skin in the game as a white middle class man who isn't from Linlithgow.
Though I do think changing it is preferable to leaving it as it is. The Grey Hound would be nice. Everyone likes greyhounds and the pictures and statues of the Black Bitch dog all look like greyhounds.
I will admit, I'm not hugely keen on living here. It reminds me of growing up in rural Fife - a dull monoculture. Noone has taken a shit on my doorstep yet though.
What I do think is ridiculous is:
a) The strident proclamations about this being heritage/culture/tradition and therefore is not racist by people from a town that is essentially 100% white.
b) The lack of anyone involved even showing any semblance of awareness that they might not be the best arbitrators of what is racist, never having been subjected to racism themselves.
c) The possibility that calling folk Black Bitches and having a pub called The Black Bitch might lead to the lack of racial diversity in town.
D) (my main point in posting) How hugely tone deaf for the modern world the local magazine cover is:
As a slight aside, it would be very easy to crop/edit/manipulate that picture for it to look very bad.
I also think, if that image was cropped, a picture like that could follow that wee lassie around as she gets older, long after any context has gone/been deliberately removed.
Noone has taken a shit on my doorstep yet though.
A high bar indeed!
I suspect that the people pictured above know it's racist/offensive/controversial, but delight in the fact that they have (in their eyes) licence to use the term to refer to themselves/others.
Flip your question around though. Its only a name, lots of people have got good reason to not like it, why on earth wouldn’t you do the simple thing and change the name?
I am neither black nor a bitch and I really don’t like that pub name. Furthermore, if its patrons are those people getting frothy about defending its name then I wouldn’t want to drink there either.
This. The history of the name is irrelevant, most passers-by will find it offensive. Just sounds like a bunch of dumbasses s****ing to themselves that they get to say naughty words because of some bogus local legend. They think they're being really clever when pretty much everyone else just sees ignorant arseholes.
I suspect that the people pictured above know it’s racist/offensive/controversial, but delight in the fact that they have (in their eyes) licence to use the term to refer to themselves/others.
This. It's a whole village of edgelords.
This. It’s a whole village of edgelords.
That right there and the post you quote are prime examples of bigotry. You presume to know, and judge in the process, something about a whole group of people based on nothing more than conjecture.
That right there and the post you quote are prime examples of bigotry.
😂
Won't someone think of the discriminated against black bitches of Linlithgow?
I wish my life was so easy that the name of my local pub was something I could find the energy to care about.
Why are people getting upset that the owners of a pub want to change its name? Snowflakes.
OK, so to provide a little context. The people of Linlithgow are very proud to have an association with the story of the Black Bitch loyally feeding its master. The Black Bitch appears on the town coat of arms, its in the school logo, and in the last decade a sculpture of the dug was erected on the town's high street and as the OP posted the "town magazine" (a 21st century innovation) bears the name. The locals proudly label themselves black bitches, with vocal discussion about the qualifying criteria. Neighbouring towns will also use the terminology - and despite local town rivalry the term Black Bitch is never said with hatred towards the people of Linlithgow (as the OP note not many of them are people of colour - although I suspect its probably no worse than other central Scotland small towns). Now it is certainly unfortunate that other people have appropriated the same two words as racist and misogynistic language.
It is of course Greene King's pub and they can rename it however they wish. The pub has not been called the Black Bitch all its life (although it was when Greene King bought it and had been for a long time before that). There are lots of people upset about the planned name change and when you have lots of people upset invariably there are people upset for different reasons - certainly most of the signatures on the petition (of course there's a petition - you don't have a proper cause in 2022 unless you have a pointless petition!) are not regular customers in that pub.
I think the bulk of the objection is not actually about the pub name change - its the implied issue with the label that the towns folk proudly associate with. A pub chain from out of town decided to change the name of a pub they thought was perceived as racist either without being aware of its origins or considering how their dismissal of that heritage might be perceived. But of course, the campaign has the usual headbangers on it and I'm sure will have the right-wing culture wars people joining in too.
As for the name of the pub why not just call it Loyal Black Dog?
I’m not sure if this avoids the issue
The proposed name is "The Black Hound", now on the face of it the Loyal Black Dog is better - although I wouldn't call any pub in central Scotland "loyal" anything or you have a whole other divide! However, if I was at Greene King I'd look for another local historical story to use to rename my pub, and it just so happens that directly across the road from the pub is a tree that has another legend attached to it.
Greene King claimed to have consulted on the new name - but seemingly with nobody in the town. Of course pub chains are not democracies and have no obligation to keep anyone happy or consult anyone.
Why shouldn’t it? If you’ve grown up being called a black bitch and spat at etc, don’t you think it might be a little unsettling to see it on a building every time you walk past? Even if it’s not aimed at you? I can appreciate that it might.
I can't put myself directly in those shoes - but there's a certain irony that the one town where this is happening is the one place it the UK where that term would 99.9% of the time be a positive label. Now as far as I am aware no person of colour in the town has ever actually raised a concern or complaint before this proposed rebrand emerged. Of course silence doesn't mean they were absolutely fine with it, or people considering moving to the town weren't put off but it, but like most things in the 2020s its blown out of all proportion on all sides.
I’m surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn’t come under any pressure to change its name
If its a Greene King pub - they will get to it - I believe they've already rebranded a handful of Black Boy pubs.
If he is the pub owner thats his right. Pubs get names changed all the time.
100%. Although any change of signage will need planning approval and I wouldn't put it past the councillors to go for the populist approach and reject it in the run-up to May's local elections!
Obviously, it's also the prerogative of the townsfolk not to go to the pub - they have plenty of others to choose from, including at least a couple of other Greene King pubs. Ironically one of those underwent a far less controversial name change a few years back and recently changed back having failed to really rebrand!
I wish my life was so easy that the name of my local pub was something I could find the energy to care about.
This really.
Loads of my local pubs have changed their names.
The locals proudly label themselves black bitches, with vocal discussion about the qualifying criteria.
I have several friends who live / have lived there and have never heard this before