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I've recently moved from central Edinburgh to a nearby rural town called Linlithgow.
The town is very dull, very middle class and very white.
There is currently a FURORE over Greene King wanting to rename a local pub called The Black Bitch to something less offensive.
The Black Bitch thing comes from a local traditional story about a thief sentenced to starve to death on an island in the loch, and their wife getting the dog to swim over with artisan pies or something. This was found out and the dog also get sentenced to starve.
People from Linlithgow refer to themselves as Black Bitches.
HOWEVER, this is the cover of the local magazine:
I know the 2020s are a tough time for parody to justify its existence but OH MY
That is ridiculous. No dog would actually swim over a loch with a pie without eating it. Daft.
I'm neither black, nor a dog, so I don't know if I'm offended or not. Best ask one of the STW expertsinevery****ingthing, who'll be along shortly...
Seems reasonable. Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don't like it?
Reminds me of the ban on Ba Ba Black Sheep.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm
Well it's nice to see that the English don't have a total monopoly on cuture war based silliness in these here isles.
This was found out and the dog also get sentenced to starve.
Punishing the dog is cruel if this is true. The community should apologise to the dog and erect a monument to remember the loyal dog. A respect for a loyal dog.
As for the name of the pub why not just call it Loyal Black Dog? Not sure I want to call it Black Bitch if the dog was punished for trying to save its owner.
If the story is not real then use whatever name they wish for the pub.
Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don’t like it?
The pub doesn't have to change its name, the owners are choosing to.
Flip your question around though. Its only a name, lots of people have got good reason to not like it, why on earth wouldn't you do the simple thing and change the name?
I am neither black nor a bitch and I really don't like that pub name. Furthermore, if its patrons are those people getting frothy about defending its name then I wouldn't want to drink there either.
Seems reasonable.
Yep, very reasonable - people who own a pub should be able to change the name if they like.
Why should a pub with a hundreds of years old name have to change it because some people don’t like it?
Why shouldn't it? If you've grown up being called a black bitch and spat at etc, don't you think it might be a little unsettling to see it on a building every time you walk past? Even if it's not aimed at you? I can appreciate that it might.
So why can't it be the black dog?
The people who own the pub can do what they want - if anyone else is really getting up in as about the name of a pub they can get in the sea.
See, that's the thing.
All the people who say being called a Black Bitch is not racist are white.
I've been visiting this town for years before I moved here (as my GF lives here) and I have never seen a single black person.
Maybe black people don't like moving to a town where the pub is called The Black Bitch.
It's also one of the worst pubs in town!
I'm surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn't come under any pressure to change its name
"I’m surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn’t come under any pressure to change its name"
For the love of all things holy does no one remember what happened when the Bull became The B at ambridge?
Havoc and chaos, havoc and chaos.
I was going to say, of all the things to get het up about, a Greene King pub is not one of them.It’s also one of the worst pubs in town!
there’s a few of those about, traditional name obviously (although origin disputed!) The one near-ish me (Kent) has changed names now, only a couple of years ago though.I’m surprised the Black Boy Inn at Caernarfon hasn’t come under any pressure to change its name
Yes but Blackboy Road has a racist derivation whereas the black bitch is named after a black female dog.
I appreciate it must be difficult to move from Edinburgh, with its 0.2% black population, to somewhere with even fewer black people without suffering from a huge culture shock.
Why are people getting upset that the owners of a pub want to change its name? Snowflakes.
Best keep away from Argyll if names offend....
https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/local/the-bastard-argyll-and-bute
And Stirling
For the love of all things holy does no one remember what happened when the Bull became The B at ambridge?
Wait til you find out what happened to the Canal Boat on the road between the uni, the student pub district and the main halls of residence.
As for the name of the pub why not just call it Loyal Black Dog?
I'm not sure if this avoids the issue
It’s a crap name for a pub, but then no again it’s in Linlithgow
Only folk whining is those making it an issue, so they can whine about something.
What we really need are pictures of the girlfriend. I mean if she's worth moving to Linlithgow...
Years ago, the Guardian reported on a Court Case, saying 'the black cab driver was in the dock'.
It got a complaining letter, that was, apparently, printed, 'why did you identify the colour of the accused' to which the Editor has replied, 'The black cab driver was referring to the colour of his cab,not his skin colour'.
It was on Radio 4, so I'd like to think it was real.
More bullshit created because half of the UK population want to police by offence.
It's clearly a non-racist cultural tradition that's been going on for a long time. And the thing about racism is it *requires intent*.
If it's not intended to be racist, but someone decides to *take offence* then that's their problem - and it shouldn't be made to be anyone elses.
I can construe lots of things in lots of different ways. I can get upset about them too. Should everyone have to tread on eggshells so I don't get upset?
Bull. What is going on is cultural homogenisation in the name of "fixing racism" - racism that doesn't exist. And it infantilises our minds - because we no longer are capable of intellectualising nuance - everything is, for want of a better phrase, black or white nowadays.
It's clearly more than the name of the pub. It's cultural and from the area. Whether all the people from there are white or not has zero bearing on it. Intention is a pre-requisite for something to be *actually* racist.
@50.8750045,-3.6992395,407m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!3m7!1s0x486db6b3e4657e45:0xf0dcf738c3a3f8d2!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d50.8749301!4d-3.698854!5m1!1e1">Black dog inn
Where will it end?
There’s a Black Ladd near us. It was the name of a local shirehorse I think…
I can’t believe they changed Gropec*nt Lane to Magpie Lane in Oxford.
Intention is a pre-requisite for something to be *actually* racist.
This really is not true at all. People are often racist without any intent because of ignorance. I had an old lady refer to one member of staff as "the little n***** girl" totally racist, she was not demented, she was just ignorant
To me this depends on who wants to change the name and if its the pub owners its up to them. Storm in a teacup but its linlithgow so hardly surprising
Or Ron Atkinsons "a lazy n******" - again no intent to be racist - just ignorance and stupidity
but someone decides to *take offence* then that’s their problem – and it shouldn’t be made to be anyone elses
I agree. All those taking offence at the pub name changing can just suck it up.
Ignoring the fact it is some middle-aged middle class white bloke who decided on making the change…
EDIT
& that decision was taken by Greene King. Which is named after its founder, Benjamin Greene.
Who was a slave owner.
If he is the pub owner thats his right. Pubs get names changed all the time.
@tjagain:
"This really is not true at all. People are often racist without any intent because of ignorance."
Nah. To be racist requires intent. If atkinson was *genuinely* unaware of his racism (and I don't for a second believe that - I believe he was being an ugly racist) - then he was guilty of using a racial epithet - not guilty of racism.
Nuance. < As I said in my post. We're infantilised and incapable of having sensible adult discussions about things. And it means that innocent cultural traditions (like above) get trashed.
And the world is a poorer, lesser place for it.
@kelvin
"I agree. All those taking offence at the pub name changing can just suck it up."
Oh, I don't take offence at it. TBH - if the landlord wants to change the name, that's their perogative.
But if the landlord is changing the name "because it's racist" - then it's still his perogative - but he's a bit of a dumb arsehole IMO. But then the world is full of 'em, so there's no point in getting too upset over it.
i drive past that fairly frequently and often wondered how long it would last.
chevychase - that is just so much nonsense. Of course you can be racist without intent if its done from ignorance. I gave two examples and could give many more.
Had a couple of pints of Guinness in there last night. Was alright.
Again "sunken and tree lined dark lane".
"I'm offended"
The answer should probably be "that's a shame. I understand why you've taken offence - but it's 100% not a dig at you - it was called this a long time ago".
"But I'm offended"
"Oh, ok, we'll change everything for people who are offended"
"chevychase – that is just so much nonsense. Of course you can be racist without intent if its done from ignorance. I gave two examples and could give many more."
And I continued your examples to show the difference between ignorantly using a racial epithet and being actually racist - with being actually racist requiring intent.
Nuance. It appears that you can't grasp it either, unfortunately.
@tjagain - how about one of my examples:
The BBC has strict guidelines on what language is allowable in various contexts - because context is important on whether something is racist or not.
The word "chinky" is a potentially racially offensive term applied to describe Chinese people - and is treated as such in TV programmes.
However - if the programme is about Liverpool / scousers / set in the North West it's NOT classed as a racist term. This is because scousers say "going for a chinky" completely innocently when it means going for chinese food.
The BBC acknoledges that they're NOT being racist and it's not a racist term - because there's no intent there. It's innocent.
The BBC has deemd that if you're a londoner using that term you're probably using it with intent.
I don't think it's a particularly strong argument to illustrate / make my case - to be honest, I'm not really that bothered if I do or don't - it just a fact that amuses me - and I hope it amuses you 🙂
Did someone not suggest it be changed to 'The Black Hound' but this was unsuitable as it too was deemed to have racial overtones.
Change it to The Russian Pig. Thats bound to get support these days.
the thing about racism is it *requires intent*.
If it’s not intended to be racist, but someone decides to *take offence* then that’s their problem – and it shouldn’t be made to be anyone elses.
Wow. You are so, so wrong.
@franksinatra - saying "you're wrong" isn't an actual argument you know.
You are right, it’s not an argument, it’s a statement of fact.