[Closed] Have we done the "Banning of domestic gas"?

'bout time. It's all about renewables innit. An island nation with no tidal electricity generation is laughable.

Doesn't have to get cold. Just needs a bit of common sense.

Our house isn't that special, but it's built minimally to modern specs, and with some thick curtains the living room is so well insulated that even in the winter the heat generated by the TV (not plasma) and two immobile adults watching it is enough to need the door opening cos it gets too warm, the TRVs having already shut off. And there's tons more we could do in the house to make it better.

Cue I'm not doing anything until China/India/USA/Aviation etc stops

Sounds like a sensible one though, 6 years to sort that out. We do still need the solid builds of decent baseload etc. time for the government to fund the nuclear stations properly

It’s gonna get cold!

That is kind of the point.

About time. But the quality of new homes needs to improve dramatically.

We were looking over the last few months and build quality / insulation / heating appeared to be bottom of the list for builders

I assume it will mean though that older homes will drop in value and gas prices to keep running older properties will go up

The thing is, if we built homes and offices (etc) as efficiently as we could do, then a significant majority of our space heating energy use would not be needed.

I am laughing at the naivety of that article - 'homes could be heated by heat pumps' - you mean the things that struggle to beat 1:1 efficiency in the cold, that use (currently) carbon heavy electricity at 4x the cost of gas? Aye, great solution.

An island nation with no tidal electricity generation is laughable.

True.

Blocking gas use does move a chunk of the problem back towards energy generation technology - and back into the hands of super-big business building more nuclear, hydro, wind, pumped storage and more. Jobs and market for the boys in the future innit, nothing about sustainability.

Jobs and market for the boys in the future innit, nothing about sustainability.

So, it's inward investment in sustainable tech.

You just can't win, can you?

I'm struggling a bit with domestic gas today; must be the chickpeas last night

Most high rise developments don't have piped gas supply already so shouldn't be too great of a change of mindset for new builds.  Developers and builders will potentially save money not having to bring gas infrastructure to sites, bit more money into the heating systems for electric I guess but can see this taking off.

Removing piped gas supply from the existing housing stock is going to be the bigger challenge and where it will logically lead to.

What about cooking?

There's no such thing as a decent electric hob.

What about cooking?

There’s no such thing as a decent electric hob.

Induction. It’s better than gas.

Much better idea: How about banning all humans from breeding for the next ten years..? Much more effective way of reducing overall emissions and consequential environmental damage. It's quite a simple problem really, there are far too many humans on this planet already, far more than it can sustain in the 'preferred' comfortable consumerist lifestyle. If we don't stop breeding humans soon, nature will take the problem into it's own hands.....

Try putting electric heating of any kind into a residential property and see if it can get an EPC of D or better. Without that rating it's not legal to rent it out.
The EPC system needs to change.

Much better idea: How about banning all humans from breeding for the next ten years..? Much more effective way of reducing overall emissions and consequential environmental damage. It’s quite a simple problem really, there are far too many humans on this planet already, far more than it can sustain in the ‘preferred’ comfortable consumerist lifestyle. If we don’t stop breeding humans soon, nature will take the problem into it’s own hands…..

This is happening naturally.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-46118103
"Their report found fertility rate falls meant nearly half of countries were now facing a "baby bust" - meaning there are insufficient children to maintain their population size."

@colp It is changing - SAP10 to arrive soon, then SAP11 from mid 2020s with a ground up full redesign to incorporate summer overheating, heat storage, battery storage, etc, apparently.

Induction. It’s better than gas.

Hahaha! Good one. 😂

Good induction is very good, problem is cheap gas is just about as bad. Though the leaks are a bigger worry along with all the other problems associated with it.

Try putting electric heating of any kind into a residential property and see if it can get an EPC of D or better. Without that rating it’s not legal to rent it out.
The EPC system needs to change.

Erm living in a residential property with electric heating and its rented. That mean I should move out?

see if it can get an EPC of D or better. Without that rating it’s not legal to rent it out.

It needs to be "E".

That's correct sorry, currently E but I think it's changing to D in 2022?

Erm living in a residential property with electric heating and its rented. That mean I should move out?

No, what would happen to the forum on moving day without you?

my wife would love to ban my domestic gas output. right lads?

No, what would happen to the forum on moving day without you?

Sounds like a sensible time frame. What am I missing?

Where i live we still can't get mains gas, let alone better, we're still on oil.

From friends that are heating engineers, they have had a number of customers that spent a small fortune on air source heating and have hated it, having it stripped out and gone back to oil for central heating and wood burner as most houses have here...

So on a cold dark winters evening then when everyone comes home from work, plugs in their electric car, turns on the electric lights, heating, oven/hob and boils the kettle where does all this electricity magically come from?
The current infrastructure we have is struggling to cope with demand at times, but I suppose we can rely on our imported electricity from France and Belgium.... oh hang on - BREXIT!!

I've already nearly broken Western Power in Coventry by trying to get vehicle & taxi charging in 2 multistory car parks - they just don't have the network capacity.

What a joke.

So, like building shitty prefab box homes and chucking them all over the countryside now without any forethought to renewable energy or heat loss is like...

Awesome.

Buy now, repent later eh.

Soft target - but getting rid of highly polluting shipping, significantly reduce air travel and improve our current housing stock for a start. But hey, with our UK 'world-view' post Brexit we don't want to reduce the 'opportunities' for bypass our prosperous and immediately accessible markets by exporting stuff to bongo-bongo land the other side of the globe 😉 The trouble is you can't 'monetise' the existing problem as well as you can by giving huge subsidies to companies the develop all this new technology and sell it to house builders and Joe public.

’bout time. It’s all about renewables innit. An island nation with no tidal electricity generation is laughable.

Didn't work out so well for the Germans did it? they shut down their nuclear stations overnight and forced renewables down the throats of their population and all its done is increase their CO2 emissions because the renewables haven't generated the expected energy despite significantly increasing the number of windmills and acreage of solar panels, and significantly increased the cost of electricity for everyone as they've had to buy more gas from our best mate Putin, and stoke up the coal fired power stations. No surprise that Germany's power and influence within the EU is hampering our collective will to act with regards to Putin.

And not so much of a Joke about lack of tidal...its not actually that easy to extract and only comes by twice a day, so not really convenient. Again...pushing an immature technology too early will not achieve any of the objectives we want to achieve.

However there are things that can be done and should be. The estate I live on is being expanded and I'm shocked and amazed that all the new builds do not have solar panels on the roof and designed and houses orientated to maximise solar. It might not generate 100% of the energy requirements, but even if it generates 30% of electrical requirements per house, that's 30% less that has to come from the grid.

’bout time. It’s all about renewables innit. An island nation with no tidal electricity generation is laughable.

10 PRINT "THIS";
20 GO TO 10

run...

Eventually the penny will drop that you cannot let the markets decide everything. Governments need to push development in the way it NEEDS to happen, not the way that makes the most money for private individuals.

Most thinkers have realised this, it's just the establishment that is dragging its feet like a truculent teenager.

However there are things that can be done and should be. The estate I live on is being expanded and I’m shocked and amazed that all the new builds do not have solar panels on the roof and designed and houses orientated to maximise solar.

The street we live on is ten years old and is on a south facing hill, the roads go down the hill. The houses are all built with their rooves parallel to the street so they face east-west. If they'd been built with gables facing the street (like the ones in the other new development across the road) we'd all have had brilliant solar potential. As it is, we have naff all.

I think in the "everything being turned at once" scenario, the intention is that the cars will provide a buffer by being s source of power for the spike.

Until people stop plugging their cars in till a bit later so their residual charge isn't "stolen".

And given the electricity industry can't even cope with me wanting a flat rate tarriff when my house has an economy 7 meter, I think we're a long way off!

So they think they can sort out a "no gas" policy in 6 years, but no ones thought about making solar panels compulsory on new builds or improving standards of existing housing stock in the last 20?

Hahaha! Good one. 😂

I’ve cooked using both and just ripped out an old gas range cooker and installed an induction hob. Heats faster, more control at both the top and bottom end of the range, no hot spots on pans and much easier to clean. Modern induction hobs really are better than gas.

@colp

As other said, SAP 10 is just around the corner so this is all about to change - grid electricity will become about on-par with gas in terms of emissions factor. Combine with the 100% default efficiency for direct electric heaters and far greater efficiency for heat pumps, soon gas will not be so favourable for EPCs.

@bikebouy

A lot of local authorities are strict on this already with emissions reductions targets by renewables for large developments. It might be surprising but current Part L 1A can be difficult to meet without PV.

Markets when used correctly can sort this sort of thing. If the EU puts a price on carbon emissions and applies it to imports it will rapidly change behaviour. Lots of US states are also changing their renewable obligations to low carbon, allowing nuclear power to displace gas. Unfortunately big business is very good at getting government to skew markets to do what they want (oil exploration tax credits anyone?).

So, it’s inward investment in sustainable tech.

Or inventing huge projects for huge companies, when in fact we need to uber insulate Mrs Miggins cottage with local, skilled trades. The "consultants" don't get paid see.

It's a bit like all the resource hungry, financially costly 'tech' inventions in transport - when really instead of doing more we all need to walk, cycle and move closer to work.

not so much of a Joke about lack of tidal…its not actually that easy to extract and only comes by twice a day, so not really convenient

The time of peak tidal flow varies as you move round the coast, so building tidal generators 6 hrs out of sync solves that. The bigger problems are the aggressive environment and, for barrage based schemes, the effect on wildlife.

+1 for gonfishin.

Just about to pull out our gas hob range and going for induction - so much more controllable and an even heat.

I’ve cooked using both and just ripped out an old gas range cooker and installed an induction hob. Heats faster, more control at both the top and bottom end of the range, no hot spots on pans and much easier to clean. Modern induction hobs really are better than gas.

You see you've just described why I prefer gas, I found induction to be the one that was slow to heat up, had hotspots and less control.

@pjm60 & @wonny m

Thanks for the heads up guys.
I’m just renovating a flat I own, bought underfloor electric to install as there is no gas to the building. Was looking into getting gas C/H instead as it would be way cheaper for future tenants.
I’ve already just installed 4kw solar on the roof so might stick with the electric after all. I think there’s a way to get a temporary pass on the EPC if the costs of sorting it are too high.

I am laughing at the naivety of that article – ‘homes could be heated by heat pumps’ – you mean the things that struggle to beat 1:1 efficiency in the cold, that use (currently) carbon heavy electricity at 4x the cost of gas? Aye, great solution.

Air source perhaps, ground source, not so.

And not so much of a Joke about lack of tidal…its not actually that easy to extract and only comes by twice a day

Luckily it happens at different times in different places.

As said, we need to build houses and insulate them properly. We also need to insulate existing stock to a decent standard by folk who know what they are doing. A properly insulated house doesn't need loads of heating.

I was actually researching gshp today after reading the op article. The space required seems huge. 15kw one. One article I read was 3 loops, each at 200 m! So 100m out and back. So it's digging up an entire field!

A 2016 parliamentary report ruled out electrifying domestic heating as peak winter electricity demand would be four times current peak demand.This isn't including any increased demand from electric cars. The required enormous increase in electricity generation capacity would sit idle for the warmer months of the year.

As solar is useless in winter and wind unreliable, while no new nulear could be built in the timescales talked, about the new generation would need to be gas. Is burning gas at power stations then sending electricity along an expensively upgraded national grid any more efficient than central heating boilers in houses?

http://www.ccsassociation.org/news-and-events/reports-and-publications/parliamentary-advisory-group-on-ccs-report/

Discussed at

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/

Consumers need to be educated too. A limit on controls would be good.

I have had to set up heating for customers who want the heating set at 25 from 6AM until 10PM. In every room across 3 floors despite there being only one person in the house most of the time. This was a nice house where the owner could probably afford to burn £20 notes to stay warm.

Recently been working in a 2 bed rented flat that whilst not quite at the opposite end of the property spectrum is close to it. The heating is set to 24 throughout the day despite the homeowner being at work till 6PM.

These are not one off occurrences, I encounter it weekly at least. Turn your heating down by 1 degree is roughly a 10% fuel saving. Turn it off if you are not in.