Or for people with disabilities.
Who have Motability.
Love these examples of Schroedingers poor who simultaneously cannot afford a compliant car but can also afford to drive here there and everywhere in a less efficient and higher taxed vehicle.
The owner of an electric taxi in London told me last week that he gets about 60miles from a charge
Seems odd, but, anyway - he is being stiffed by the govt's handling of the elctricity market, not by ULEZ.
I’m sure someone’s already said on this thread that no matter how attractive you make the alternatives, unless there’s some sort of discouragement to driving people will still get in their car.
Agree. Even if a free bus stopped outside my house every 15 minutes it would still take longer to get anywhere and not actually go to where I want it to go without numerous stops and changes.
Although if cars were pretty much banned I would soon be happy for that 15 minutes bus service (where I live the only bus of the day comes at 11:00 and returns at 5)
Who have Motability.
Only if they qualify for benefits, which have been decimated under 13 years of Tory rule. An awful lot of people fell through the carefully placed gaps in benefits, especially with PIP. As an example, from a few years back:
Some of us live it. The only paradox is pretending we're a civilised democracy when we actively try to decimate the people who need help the most.
I'm all for the ULEZ, btw.
Edinburgh has a very good public transport system. total journey times ie including parking up etc are very similar to cars IIRC and its relatively cheap. people still drive across the city despite it being clogged with traffic. Decent bus lanes mean the buses are as quick as cars for most journeys.
Mind you car journeys are the minority in Edinburgh
Its funny how peoples psyche works on this. I had my parents car for a couple of weeks a good few years ago. I found myself driving it to work, sitting in traffic jams and getting stressed but it was slower than going by bike
Weird
Edit - my point being this needs carrot and stick approach and a large change in attitudes. If someone as anti car / pro bike as me gets suckered into driving a car when objectively its a worse option............
anyone seen any stats on percentage of vehicles liable to ulez tax. i checked my car and its fine.
i'm presuming the uproar is due to likely worsening terms on this scheme, soon all diesel to be banned then all petrol, then electric only..,
Love these examples of Schroedingers poor who simultaneously cannot afford a compliant car but can also afford to drive here there and everywhere in a less efficient and higher taxed vehicle.
There's a well-researched phenomenon called Transport Related Social Exclusion (sometimes "Inclusion" depending on which angle you're coming at it from) where people are poor *because* they have to own a vehicle - sometimes things like antisocial hours working, jobs/opportunities in areas poorly served by P/T etc - and they're essentially working to afford the car which they need to work. Vicious circle which is almost impossible to break. You can't afford to sell the car and buy a new one (and chances are the car you're driving is a cheap old thing anyway), you can't afford not to have a car so you're trapped in this circle where you're missing out on better employment, better social life etc by virtue of being in a car-dependent lifestyle.
It's a bit like being in debt but never getting out of debt because everything you're earning is paying to service the debt rather than going into savings.
I would argue the airport is a far bigger contributor to pollution and poor air quality than any group of vehicle’s on the road.
What I'm hearing here is that we should get rid of airports.
@crazy-legs sounds a similar thing to "house poor"
I don't agree with the whole ULEZ stuff, yet just another pointless tax. Remember the wood burner tax? And the pasty tax? And the sugar tax?
All of these things were pushed out with a guise of "helping everyone" where in reality they're nothing more than coffer liners for the government. If people want things they will still pay for them even if its a marginal extra cost. Look at the amount of people (stereotyping here) who have lived a life on the dole, complain they've got no money for food and going to the food bank but jaden has his PS5 and a 42" telly whilst mam and dad are still smoking 20 lamberts a day. It's all about peoples priorities, in the case of ULEZ it is slightly different though.
More to the point what is the wider reasoning behind this? Is it to get more money from the public? Or is it to reduce emissions? Or is it another reason?
On a global scale we are 17th contributing 1.03% of global emissions. I think broadly speaking, we would be better off educating and holding other countries to account for their contributions whilst continuing to lead by example, and ULEZ isn't that.
Love these examples of Schroedingers poor who simultaneously cannot afford a compliant car but can also afford to drive here there and everywhere in a less efficient and higher taxed vehicle.
It's an example of a poverty trap.
The owner of an electric taxi in London told me last week that he gets about 60miles from a charge
That is a cheap old EV, probably a 1st gen Nissan Leaf. More modern EVs get more than that of course. And whilst they are expensive, they are now often cheaper than their ICE equivalents. Hyundai Ioniqs are a pretty popular choice for taxis around here, and for used cars the EV version is the same price as the hybrid ICE. And they do 180 miles on a charge in the real world.
What I’m hearing here is that we should get rid of airports.
Well I did hear that Uxbridge's MP was going to lie down in front of diggers rather than allow a 3rd runway at Heathrow.
total journey times ie including parking up etc are very similar to cars IIRC and its relatively cheap.
Genuinely interested - is that from any point to any point? In Cardiff, you can get from certain places into the city centre in a similar time to driving, and the cost is comparable to parking. But from other locations, it's twice as long - and if you don't want to go to or from the city centre it takes many times longer. Like 1.5hrs to do a journey that would take 15 mins in a car. This is not only because the bus network does not support these trips - the road network doesn't support the necessary bus routes either, because of piss-poor city planning post 1980s.
That is a cheap old EV, probably a 1st gen Nissan Leaf.
Nah, it was the electric taxi we were sitting in when we were having the convo. It was pretty new.
On a global scale we are 17th contributing 1.03% of global emissions. I think broadly speaking, we would be better off educating and holding other countries to account for their contributions whilst continuing to lead by example, and ULEZ isn’t that.
Total shite and yet another bit of whataboutery. We shouldn't do anything cos "they" are worse.
We shouldn't bother with looking at traffic in London because Heathrow exists. We shouldn't bother reducing our own transport emissions because China, because power stations, because wood burners...
🙄
Look at the amount of people (stereotyping here) who have lived a life on the dole, complain they’ve got no money for food and going to the food bank but jaden has his PS5 and a 42″ telly whilst mam and dad are still smoking 20 lamberts a day.
No. Just no. That's a massively ignorant thing to say. Sure, there might be some people like that, but to use them to justify actively harming millions of people you know nothing about is a truly ****ing horrible thing to do. Have a word with yourself.
Why do you assume the worst of people? Why would assume that people's complaints are fabricated and that people are lying because they're stupid and lazy? Really? I can't express strongly enough how abhorrent this attitude is.
Nah, it was the electric taxi we were sitting in when we were having the convo. It was pretty new.
I'd love to know what it was. Very small? I don't think there are any EVs on sale now with that sort of range unless you get a small city car like a Smart ForFour. He's certainly chosen absolutely the wrong car if that's the case. I can categorically say that you can easily get cars with much more range than that for not a lot of money. Sure, he's driving around town, but that is actually more efficient than the open road for EVs. So either he's clueless, bullshitting, or he's chosen a terrible car.
From the road to wigan pier:
And the peculiar evil is this, that the less
money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A
millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an
unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of
the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say
when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to
eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is
always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let's have three pennorth
of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and
we'll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are
at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don't nourish you
to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than
brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery
that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the
English-man's opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a
temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread.
The LEVC TX (the car we were in) says that's the range for battery only, but I looked and it's a hybrid, so I guess there's more to the story.
On a global scale we are 17th contributing 1.03% of global emissions. I think broadly speaking, we would be better off educating and holding other countries to account for their contributions
Hmm, a lot of emissions in places like China are created by them making the shit that we buy. So just because it's being emitted in China, doesn't mean we aren't responsible for it in some way.
Edinburgh has a very good public transport system
Visited last year and stayed a few miles outside. The bus service was a joy to use and the added bonus of being chauffeured past the beautiful architecture. Cant wait to visit again.
From the road to wigan pier:
Reread this a few weeks ago. it should be compulsory reading and rereading just like driving license renewals...
The LEVC TX (the car we were in) says that’s the range for battery only, but I looked and it’s a hybrid, so I guess there’s more to the story.
Ah right, if it's a plug-in hybrid then 60 miles is a big range, although not especially efficient given the 33kWh battery. The only other PHEV with an electric range like that that I know of is the latest model of Mercedes C and E class
Genuinely interested – is that from any point to any point?
I can't find the data right now so its from memory. Every once in a while there is a race done around Edinburgh. Bicycle v motorbike v car v bus
IIRC it showed bus and car journeys to be similar times. I cannot remember the actual routes - I think from the edge to the centre but not sure
Edinburgh has a very good and well organised bus service. an outlier .
He’s certainly chosen absolutely the wrong car if that’s the case. I can categorically say that you can easily get cars with much more range than that for not a lot of money. Sure, he’s driving around town, but that is actually more efficient than the open road for EVs. So either he’s clueless, bullshitting, or he’s chosen a terrible car.
Assuming it was a black cab driver they don't get a lot of choice in the matter (although that article is a bit out of date the electric ones are the LEVC as noted above).
China, doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible for it in some way.
We have offshored it... Having said that they are installing solar and replacing ICE vehicles at an incredible rate with EV's now cheaper in many instances than the ICE counterparts.
I’d love to know what it was.
Are there some rules about what a "black cab" driver can drive? Apart from "black", obvs.
EDIT - point bin made above.
Edinburgh has a very good and well organised bus service. an outlier .
I just tried picking random locations on Google maps and checking the times for cars versus public transport. You can drag and drop endpoints all over the map and it instantly calculates, so you can pick a wide variety of trips. In most cases the bus is double the car, even for suburb to suburb trips, and in a few cases they were comparable (trips involving Queensferry Road to city centre from the West it seems).
Don't get me wrong - this is a very good result, much better than Cardiff, but I think it's stretching it to say that the bus is quicker as a blanket statement. Still, that does indeed constitute an excellent network. In Cardiff you get shit like @51.5072611,-3.2067745,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x486e1db421c07867:0x4042fd8391bb351f!2m2!1d-3.1439959!2d51.5322878!1m5!1m1!1s0x486e1c71cdcf906d:0x5f406dba799492c!2m2!1d-3.190809!2d51.5271622!3e3?entry=ttu">this where a 3.3 mile trip between suburbs is a 10 minute drive or a 50 minute bus trip with a change (tbh I thought it would be longer than 50 mins). And is a scary bike ride due to the only two available roads being tight and busy. This may change in the next few years, because the area between those two places is being filled in with housing and they have the opportunity to make bus corridors and cycle links.
TFL say 1 in 10 are not complient, but this seems wrong. RAC says nearer 1/3 but I guess we will no know until the facts come in from the next few months. I live less than a mile from the ULEZ expansion in two directions. My streets are full of non-compliant cars, most people I know in the area, close to the ULEZ border, inside are very 50/50. I think the real figure is something between a 1/3rd and 1/2.
I didn't say quicker - I said similar times if you include all travel time door to door. Its partly because of a lack of parking in much of the city so you have to find a parking place and walk to your destination
Apart from “black”, obvs.
Doesn't actually have to be black!
I didn’t say quicker – I said similar times if you include all travel time door to door. Its partly because of a lack of parking in much of the city so you have to find a parking place and walk to your destination
As an aside to the ULEZ thing, this is a major factor in transport modelling that rarely gets included in most people's individual travel choices.
Certainly for short journeys, by the time you've got in the car, driven the journey, found a parking spot at your destination, paid for it (if applicable) and walked to your actual destination, the time is far longer - basically the same (if not longer) than just walking and almost always longer than cycling/scooting.
molgrips
Full Member
Yes but there are still lots of people who are poor but still need cars to get around, outside of London. I know a few. If we had decent busses then it wouldn’t be anywhere near as much of an issue, but we don’t. I know you’ll argue about this, but your world of experience is not universal.That said – is your typical small cheap petrol car ULEZ compliant?
Statistically, yes, but that doesn’t mean ALL lower income people don’t have cars. Don’t use averages and statistics to justify ignoring outliers.
But then should we ignore the majority to appease them?
And yes, our ~20 year old Fiesta meets the ULEZ, and despite my best efforts to keep it running is worth about a tank of fuel more than the scrap value.
The bleating about poor people not being able to afford a "new" car is from not-poor people claiming that the only alternative to their current old-ish car is a new one on £400/month PCP in the daily mail.
A couple of statistics that surprise people:
Based on household income, in the first decile only 35% own a car.
And it's not until you hit the top 30% that car ownership reaches 90%.
And those are national statistics, in London car ownership is a LOT lower.
I didn’t say quicker – I said similar times if you include all travel time door to door.
Google includes walking to and from PT stops but it seems to assume you can park where you want to go. But for long trips you're talking 30 mins by car and 55 mins by PT so you've got a lot of leeway. But that's being silly - the results are great for Edinburgh whichever way you look at it.
In Cardiff the river is a big problem there are only two bridges outside city centre and one of them is the motorway. Here's an @51.5292887,-3.1507836,15.06z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x486e1a5a5cd05df3:0x6361d3de485d03a0!2m2!1d-3.2629953!2d51.5190647!3e3?entry=ttu">even worse example. 18 mins by car and 1h13 by bus and train!
TFL say 1 in 10 are not complient, but this seems wrong. RAC says nearer 1/3 but I guess we will no know until the facts come in from the next few months.
Apparently TFL figures come from camera data, so cars being driven past cameras. RAC data is registered vehicles. Lots of vehicles registered in London don't drive there, eg commercial vehicles located elsewhere, I also suspect a lot of people living in London rarely drive into London.
But then should we ignore the majority to appease them?
The less-advantaged minority need more support than the capable majority, that's the whole point. That's why we have a progressive tax regime in this country (same as most) and why poorer people get stuff like income support.
I could moan about some people getting free cars whilst I have to pay for mine, but that would be a bit churlish wouldn't it?
So no, don't ignore the majority, but help the people who need help the most.
As an aside to the ULEZ thing, this is a major factor in transport modelling that rarely gets included in most people’s individual travel choices.
Certainly for short journeys, by the time you’ve got in the car, driven the journey, found a parking spot at your destination, paid for it (if applicable) and walked to your actual destination, the time is far longer – basically the same (if not longer) than just walking and almost always longer than cycling/scooting.
The lack of parking is what makes city centers actually nice places to be though.
A quick look on google maps and an average town center (I'm looking at Reading) must be about 80& shop floorspace and 20% streets?
Zoom out to the shopping parks and it's probably 10% shops, probably less because the retail park is about 75% car parking, and then there's a dual carriageway to reach it, slip roads, junctions etc.
So it's a direct result of that car dependency and car based town planning that means that it's a 30minute bus journey from the suburb to the center. It's literally 3x the distance because of cars. Build more shops in the car parks of existing shops and then people don't need to drive to shops on the far side of town, they can get to the shop 15 minutes away.
So no, don’t ignore the majority, but help the people who need help the most.
Of whom 65% don't own a car, and tend to live on main roads.
almost always longer than cycling/scooting.
True but when you factor in the time and cost of dealing with your insurance after you bike is nicked (as it inevitably will be) while you went to the shop, or cafe, or whatever, the equation changes.
True but when you factor in the time and cost of dealing with your insurance after you bike is nicked (as it inevitably will be) while you went to the shop, or cafe, or whatever, the equation changes.
I have never had a bike stolen from outside ( since the 70s when I used crap locks) when using one to get around. Decent locks and crap (looking) bikes
Of whom 65% don’t own a car, and tend to live on main roads.
And the 35%?
True but when you factor in the time and cost of dealing with your insurance after you bike is nicked (as it inevitably will be) while you went to the shop, or cafe, or whatever, the equation changes.
Not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not but what about the time taken to get your car fixed after an accident or when you need it repaired or when you sprain your ankle and can't walk or you have piles and can't sit in a driver seat or blablabla.
Bike theft is not inevitable, like those other things. Well, car crashes and breakdowns are, to some degree.
Lots of pent up rage and anger with buckets of class issues, doused with undertones of bubbletrap liberalism and flapping little englander in this thread, thoroughly enjoying it 😀
molgrips
Full Member
Of whom 65% don’t own a car, and tend to live on main roads.And the 35%?
Are impacted by it in the way it's intended, lowering the use of the most polluting cars and benefiting everyone. And as I pointed out, the cheapest cars on the road (small cars with small petrol engines) aren't impacted by ULEZ anyway.
People on low incomes are also more likely to smoke and drink, we tax those too.
Just reflecting on the cars are quicker discussion.
I don't think we have to resolve every journey having to be more convenient or quicker, or indeed as ULEZ is creating, made in a heavily polluting car.
If we can reduce the worst of air pollution by some journeys being in 'low emission' vehicles. If we can take some cars off the road. If more people walk or ride. If more people use the bus and train. If fewer journeys are made. If we live more within a 20 minute neighbourhood. Then we can claim to have solved much of the issue.
Not everyone has to be 'perfect' or indeed not have an environmental or social impact - but if everyone gives a little, it works.
Not everyone has to be ‘perfect’ or indeed not have an environmental or social impact – but if everyone gives a little, it works.
You've been to England? That will never catch on.
Not everyone has to be ‘perfect’ or indeed not have an environmental or social impact – but if everyone gives a little, it works.
Except its not everybody, its the 1 in 3 poor people who want/need a car who are being targeted.
A fairer way would be to charge all vehicles in the city then use the vast sums raised to provide small clean vehicles to those who really need them in the city (essential workers) and a much improved public transport and bike network for the rest.
Anyone who wants a personal car but doesn't actually need it continues to pay.
I have never had a bike stolen from outside ( since the 70s when I used crap locks) when using one to get around. Decent locks and crap (looking) bikes
Lucky you. I had a bike stolen from outside the Canny Man where I left it in order to walk MrsJ home, before she was MrsJ. She still hasn't paid for that bike.
