You’ve been to England? That will never catch on.
Thankfully I stay north of that line.
Having been in a Scottish Government organisation sustainability workshop this morning, I am feeling once again that we up here have a different outlook. Not perfect. But different.
Or maybe the coffee was too strong and the view of Edinburgh skyline over the Parliament building in the sunshine just too inspiring.... 😂
Having been in a Scottish Government organisation sustainability workshop this morning, I am feeling once again that we up here have a different outlook. Not perfect. But different.
You sound like someone who is congenitally thin thinking you're better than people who are fat. Lots of places in England have a whole different set of problems to begin with. Transport is a result of a whole load of issues, only some of which are political. Many are historical and even topographical. So whilst it's perfectly possible for some places to be better run (frankly not hard in the case of the UK) don't get too smug.
You sound like someone who is congenitally thin thinking you’re better than people who are fat. Lots of places in England have a whole different set of problems to begin with. Transport is a result of a whole load of issues, only some of which are political. Many are historical and even topographical. So whilst it’s perfectly possible for some places to be better run (frankly not hard in the case of the UK) don’t get too smug.
harsh
Except its not everybody, its the 1 in 3 poor people who want/need a car who are being targeted.
And as repeatedly pointed out, the cheapest cars on the road are exempt from ULEZ.
Right, but you have to go and find one and sell the other, which can lose you money, you take a risk, you have to find one - they are probably going to go up in value. Whatever new car you can find might need work, new tyres whatever, you don't get your money back on repairs you've made to your car. And you then have to sell your now non-ULEZ compliant car. It's not as simple as you think.
This has been out there for a long time, people have had plenty of time to think about what they need to do ! There is help for those who need it available.
Everything is really simple and straightforward when someone else has to do it.
Anyway, I'm a relatively well off northerner so this issue doesn't affect me at all, I just think that it's not always as clear-cut for folk at the bottom.
Right, but you have to go and find one and sell the other, which can lose you money, you take a risk, you have to find one – they are probably going to go up in value. Whatever new car you can find might need work, new tyres whatever, you don’t get your money back on repairs you’ve made to your car. And you then have to sell your now non-ULEZ compliant car. It’s not as simple as you think.
There was lots of talk about the prices of ULEZ cars going up, but it never really seemed to happen except for recent-ish diesels.
Even for vans the price of a petrol Berlingo has dropped back down to what they were pre-pandemic.
The local newspapers have been full of this crap accompanied by photos of angry people for years. A particular highlight was the archetypal gammon faced angry person complaining that Sadiq was forcing him to sell his Crysler 300C and it would stop him driving to his ill dad's 2 miles up the road and make them both prisoners in their own houses.
The wingeing has been almost entirely by those occupying the middle of the income bell curve who might well have been caught out owning a 8-10yr old diesel that wasn't exempt. ULEZ has caused them to suddenly develop a social conscience and claim that it's an attack on blind Mrs Norris at number 53, won't someone consider how she's going to transport her free fridge off Gumtree?
ULEZ has caused them to suddenly develop a social conscience and claim that it’s an attack on blind Mrs Norris at number 53, won’t someone consider how she’s going to transport her free fridge off Gumtree?
And bike lanes. And LTNs (despite them not actually making anywhere inaccessible by car).
There is help for those who need it available.
If your cherished vehicle with a euro 5 engine, which you have been carefully maintaining and looking after for years, was worth £3 or £4k before ulez expansion, and now you are offered £2k for it, that represents a big hit. And I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to welcome that.
Just because people have perhaps borrowed some money to pay for a fairly decent family car it doesn't mean that they weren't, firstly struggling financially at the time, or secondly now struggling financially after a couple of years of a cost of living crises, increased energy costs, food costs, etc.
For a forum which decries so loudly Tory attitudes it a bit surprising to see a certain level of scant disregard for those less fortunate. Or perhaps not.
I'd love to say my comment was deliberately clever but it wasnt a good morning.
I (inaccurately) assumed Motability was means tested, I've had that notion disabused.
But if I wanted to lie and make myself look good, how many pundits crying for the poor are the exact same that would talk about anyone on benefits with a limp getting a free car?
FWIW I do have sympathy for those people that can't afford to change cars but the cynical way they are being used as an excuse by those who can (and wouldn't otherwise piss on them if they were on fire) is just pissing me off.
If your cherished vehicle with a euro 5 engine, which you have been carefully maintaining and looking after for years, was worth £3 or £4k before ulez expansion, and now you are offered £2k for it, that represents a big hit. And I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to welcome that.
There is nothing stopping them selling it for £3 or £4k rather than scrapping it for £2k
ernielynch
Full Member
There is help for those who need it available.If your cherished vehicle with a euro 5 engine, which you have been carefully maintaining and looking after for years, was worth £3 or £4k before ulez expansion, and now you are offered £2k for it, that represents a big hit. And I certainly wouldn’t expect anyone to welcome that.
Just because people have perhaps borrowed some money to pay for a fairly decent family car it doesn’t mean that they weren’t, firstly struggling financially at the time, or secondly now struggling financially after a couple of years of a cost of living crises, increased energy costs, food costs, etc.
Blimey....i find myself agreeing with Ernie 🙄
This is exactly the situation a friend of mine is in. (I know someone is going to post a link to some ULEZ compliant POS on Autotrader and say "there's loads of cheap cars available")
On a global scale we are 17th contributing 1.03% of global emissions. I think broadly speaking, we would be better off educating and holding other countries to account for their contributions
What has any of that got to do with ULEZ's? I'll give you a clue - absolutely bog all.
@molgrips no need for that.
They can choose to sell their car! This was first touted 7 or 8 years ago. The inner London zone came in 2019 and it was known it would expand again.
In my lifetime there has been significant progress with localised air pollution and most (not all) vehicles are much better than they once were. Generally people are no longer cruising around in carburetted vehicles, on leaded petrol, with a manual choke fully on and no emission controls! Some of the most soot covered vehicles (apart from industrial, farming and site vehicles) I can remember were diesel buses and trains. Buses are now hybrids, but in the Manchester area we still have diesel trains and a disjointed public transport system a long way behind Londons worst parts. The progress is ongoing and will improve further as ICE vehicles are phased out.
I'm glad a referendum (seems the only way to get things done in this country) in my area has meant the majority are being listened to, for the time being! I'm not holding my breath 🙂 that the Manchester transport network will be significantly improved before the admin bods are given the green light to restrict movement, demand fees and handout fines left right and centre.
The attempted rushed GM implementation was being applied broad brush out to rural areas with few roads or any of the city centre traffic sited as the cause of air pollution. Only certain vehicles were going to penalised while you could still drive round in a V8 just by virtue of classification!
A lot of the misleading, alarmist and hysterical language, often repeated on the internet and used by some agencies is irresponsible and damages the cause. The ONS have recorded one death between 2001 and 2021 due to air pollution in the UK, that's not to say it doesn't cause any harm! The overzealous money grab by cash strapped local authorities looking to plug holes in their budgets by any means and quangos looking to sure up and expand their operations doesn't help either.
There is nothing stopping them selling it for £3 or £4k rather than scrapping it for £2k
Absolutely there is - the ulez expansion which has slashed the value of diesel vehicles with euro 5 engines.
A one worth £3 or £4k last year would never reach more than £2k now.
Furthermore the cost of second hand vehicles with compliant euro 6 engines has shot up in the South East.
So it is a double hit, ulez has made your vehicle worth considerably less, and considerably increased the price of the vehicle that you are likely to replace it with.
Why do you think some people are so upset and angry about ulez? It is not simply a case of comfortably well off individuals who are upset and angry for the sake of it. For many their car is their greatest investment other than perhaps their house.
It looks like I can drive through London with my Toyota Corolla Petrol 2005 Euro 4 ... woohoo!
This was first touted 7 or 8 years ago.
No it wasn't. Euro 6 diesel vehicles have only been around about 8 years.
They have been talking about zero emission vehicles for years, how about introducing a zero emissions zone next year?
how about introducing a zero emissions zone next year?
sounds great. Bicycles and pedestrians it is then.
And EV's.
They have been "proposing" zero emissions cars for years. Proposing means nothing. Ulez expansion was not announced by the Mayor until last year.
I’m glad a referendum (seems the only way to get things done in this country) in my area has meant the majority are being listened to
Majority in a referendum isn't always the best answer.
Evidence provided: Brexit
I take it you live in London and watch the London region news regularly like me. I seem to remember Boris putting this out there around 7 to 8 years ago. It’s been out there for a long time this was not sprung on Londoners last year! We had the inner London implementation in 2019 it was known then that it would expand London wide!
Majority in a referendum isn’t always the best answer.
It was in this case. I'll take local democracy over diktats any day.
I seem to remember Boris putting this out there around 7 to 8 years ago.
Boris Johnson hasn't been Mayor of London for years. Sadiq Khan, the current Mayor of London, announced the Ulez expansion last year:
Presumably what you are really trying to say is that people affected by it should have correctly anticipated its introduction this August about 8 years ago.
Not everyone can afford the luxury of investing money and buying vehicles with the very latest technology in anticipation of what might happen in the future.
I am sure that plenty on here are currently investing in zero emissions cars, and will maintain this callous 'tough titties' attitude towards those who haven't been able to afford to do that when it becomes critical. And then express their alledged disgust at the Tories on the political threads for not caring about those less fortunate.
harsh
Oh god, the level of Scotch self-satisfaction and self-convinced exceptionalism on this forum is unbelievable. Good that it gets taken down a notch. Scotland is hardly some kind of sustainable transport Valhalla.
And those are national statistics, in London car ownership is a LOT lower.
Some London figures can he found here: https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/car-ownership-london
When is the right time? What I’m saying is it’s been out there for people to take onboard for a very long time. There is help available for those that want it. As someone who commutes across London I welcome it what is your problem with it?London has had the central London congestion charge for around 20 years. The commercial LEZ for 15 years the inner London ULEZ since 2019! This has been the long term direction since the GLA was set up and you seem to imply Khan knocked this idea up on the back of a fag packet last year then dropped it on unsuspecting Londoners.
When is the right time?
Well according to the Leader of the Labour Party and the Labour Mayor of Manchester not during a cost of living crises which is disproportionately affecting those on lower incomes. I tend to agree with them.
Although personally I would go further and say that it is a problem which is currently resolving itself. As I have repeatedly pointed out that are less pre 2007 petrol vehicles and pre 2015 diesel vehicles on the roads every day.
how about introducing a zero emissions zone next year?
This world surely be best. Everyone with a motor is treated the same.... Including EVs with their brake dust and tyre wear.
Only allow vehicles that are essential to the functioning of a town.... Included in this are trades.
Well thankfully The Mayor has pushed ahead with the plan despite what Andy Burnham, Keir Starmer and Ernie of STW think.
Sunak was on the news being critical, quoting the hardships to the people caught up in it and how bad that was given the financial crisis hitting everyone. He couldn't be more critical of it quoting it is labour and a labour mayor.
What a shame the interviewer didnt ask if the mayrorial role changed to conservative, would the conservatives scrap the roll out.
Of course we know they wouldnt, but I would have been so nice to see him put on the spot
FWIW I do have sympathy for those people that can’t afford to change cars but the cynical way they are being used as an excuse by those who can (and wouldn’t otherwise piss on them if they were on fire) is just pissing me off.
Just to be clear, I think the ULEZ is a great idea. I'm just arguing with people who don't think any poor people will be affected or if they are it's their own stupid fault for being poor and struggling.
Well thankfully The Mayor has pushed ahead with the plan despite what Andy Burnham, Keir Starmer and Ernie of STW think.
I know that the perceived wisdom is that it will be all forgotten but it could cause problems for Sadiq Khan in next year's mayoral election.
In the last mayoral election Sadiq Khan only beat his extremely weak and poor Tory opponent by less than 5% in the first round, despite London being the biggest Labour stronghold in the UK. I am not sure that in 2024 Sadiq Khan will be quite as popular as he was in 2021.
And in my personal opinion it will be tragic if the Tories win the next London mayoral election.
I've been poking about van forums a bit recently, and I've seen loads of services to disable AdBlue - and googling reveals even more. I really don't get a) how people think that's a good idea, and b) how there hasn't been a massive crackdown on the people making money out of it.
I mean, whether you agree with the ULEZ charging or not, it seems really uncool to deliberately disable systems designed to reduce pollution.
What a shame the interviewer didnt ask if the mayrorial role changed to conservative, would the conservatives scrap the roll out.
The Tory candidate for the next London mayoral election has already publicly claimed that she will scrap it. Although I have my doubts that she actually would - it will generate a lot of revenue for TfL
I mean, whether you agree with the ULEZ charging or not, it seems really uncool to deliberately disable systems designed to reduce pollution.
Indeed. And would it not be necessary to re-enable it for the MOT test? It all sounds pretty pointless.
This world surely be best. Everyone with a motor is treated the same…. Including EVs with their brake dust and tyre wear.
Only allow vehicles that are essential to the functioning of a town…. Included in this are trades
I could get behind that.
Although to be honest week day central London traffic is mostly trade/deliveries/taxis and busses anyway.
Most sane people don’t drive in central London and I wouldn’t if I didn’t have to.
And would it not be necessary to re-enable it for the MOT test?
MOT doesn't test for NOx, which is what the AdBlue system reduces.
And in my personal opinion it will be tragic if the Tories win the next London mayoral election.
Amen
Just to be clear, I think the ULEZ is a great idea. I’m just arguing with people who don’t think any poor people will be affected or if they are it’s their own stupid fault for being poor and struggling.
Wasn't suggesting you were, my aim is more in the "media personality" direction.
MOT doesn’t test for NOx, which is what the AdBlue system reduces.
Pretty sure emission system defeats are now in or shortly going to be in the test.
week day central London traffic is mostly trade/deliveries/taxis and busses anyway.
Used to drive into various bits of London from central Essex <on site chippy). The number of single occupancy vehicles was crazy. Admittedly this was nigh on 20 years ago, but I doubt things have changed much.
We used to leave at 5:30 so we le beat the traffic jams. Knocked off at 3 so it wasn't all bad news.....
I mean, whether you agree with the ULEZ charging or not, it seems really uncool to deliberately disable systems designed to reduce pollution.
Look up "rolling coal" in the USA for it taken to extremes.
Although there some of the companies selling the kits are getting hammered with fines.
Look up “rolling coal” in the USA for it taken to extremes.
wtaf.
Although, in a way, making a statement against the environment/people seems more.... honest(?) than "I'm disabling this thing because I have to top it up, and maybe it might break and cost me money"
