MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Lol bruneep. Mick has no doubt been lent on I know a couple of reps that have. And rudebwoy your right at the moment money rules the roost. Hopefully that will change
hooli - Member
I find the whole thing hugely disrespectful. The flames aren't even out yet and politicians are scoring points against each other and making snidey comments...
As they should be. This is a major scandal with more lives lost than any terrorist activity.
I don't care if the politicians are eviscerating each other, the more the merrier, and if those with responsibility don't resign then they need to be relentlessly pushed into political oblivion.
Maybe next time safety is brought up the attitude of the budget cutting politician in charge won't be to tell objectors to get stuffed or threaten legal action. (I'm speaking generally, not specifically)
I'm also a bit uncomfortable with some of the blame-throwing and jumping to conclusions that's been happening on the web, including from mainstream news outlets.
For example this...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shameless-tory-council-leader-blames-10631544
I have a visceral hatred of Tories, but even I think it's unfair to fixate on sprinklers and savage him like that.
There are plainly a number of roles that could be carried out by 50+ year old firemen - especially as we are hearing that there isn't enough being done on the prevention side.
I am a firefighter and a rep for my Union, the FBU. When we discussed the possibility of capability dismissals with management they admitted that they do not have one single position to move operational staff in to if they are unable to continue on the front line.
meanwhile the mail and the sun have a moral limbo dancing competition with the mail blaming a man whose fridge they say started the fire and the sun sending a reporter to the hospital posing as a victim's relative in order to get a story !!!!!
😯the sun sending a reporter to the hospital posing as a victim's relative in order to get a story !!!!!
I am a firefighter and a rep for my Union, the FBU. When we discussed the possibility of capability dismissals with management they admitted that they do not have one single position to move operational staff in to if they are unable to continue on the front line.
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
In my line of work the churn on the team is high and people get asked to leave with little compassion if they aren't needed
The real heartless places these days are call centres, the management of staff is often brutal
No sure what is the right answer for the blue light services, maybe more work on the limited time that people will be able to serve at the front line and preparation and resettlement strategies for those who don't go to the retirement age
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
'Tis true, i left the army after dislocating knee badly playing rugby against the navy, no support at all really. Plus the promises that training and qualifications would be valid of civvy street is bo**acks too.
But that doesn't lessen my feeling that they cannot expect firefighters to play an active front line role at 60 years of age, is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
What grates the most is the changing of of the agreements we signed. I pay 14.2 percent of my wage for my pension, and now have 20 years built up. But now all of a sudden not only do they want us to pay more and get less I've to work another extra ten years. Maybe I should ring the mortgage company and tell them I'm paying less a month for less time and see how I get on
is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
I agree.
Alternatively, the skills they gain while fighting fires should transferable to something else. Obviously not the physical skills, but mental/emotional ones - working under extreme pressure, team work/leadership stuff. That kind of thing.
They did also have a rant about the cuts but they made it clear that there's no evidence at this stage that cuts on the fire service had any part to play in this tragedy.
Fortunately the rest of London appears to have had a quiet night for the FB on the evening of the fire. Otherwise we would know there was a funding crisis causing deaths. That may be luck or it may be good management no doubt the enquiry will have the full facts.
fk its apparently true
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital
What grates the most is the changing of of the agreements we signed. I pay 14.2 percent of my wage for my pension, and now have 20 years built up. But now all of a sudden not only do they want us to pay more and get less I've to work another extra ten years. Maybe I should ring the mortgage company and tell them I'm paying less a month for less time and see how I get on
Yep, 18 years here. At least Labour ring fenced those in the job already when they shafted us.
It's a difficult issue, but the scaffolder, roofer etc don't have access to those roles either, the armed forces have done more due to the operational casualties but plenty leave due to injury etc
Difference here is that there used to be positions but they went to save money.
is there not roles that could be made in fire prevention training, inspecting buildings such as these etc? Seems daft if front line firefighters are undertaking building inspections?
Training is usually done by private firms. Fire safety is done by a mixture of more senior ranks and civvy staff on 18k. No place for the station based staff to go.
I'm not a Royalist but nice to see the queen has showed her respect and talked to the people involved
Kind of sticks 2 fingers up at Mrs May really 😆
fk its apparently true
The Scum is absolute fing disgrace......
local council have issued this:
Aberdeen City Council has reassured tenants living in multi-storey buildings that over-cladding is non-flammable and of a “very high standard”.
They have also stressed that the over-cladding on its buildings is not the same kind that appears to have been used at Grenfell Tower, London.
The council’s tower blocks have weekly checks, and they are checked every two months by the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS). Also, there is emergency lighting, smoke detectors, and information on every floor about evacuation procedures.
All of the over-cladding is made of the following materials:
1) Insulation made of stone fibres which is non-flammable and is hard-up against the concrete wall. It is 125mm thick and is a rigid material;
2) Solid façade sheets made of a fibreglass reinforced polymer which is non-flammable;
3) Cavity barriers at each party floor and party wall, and around each window. These barriers enclose any fire so as to prevent the risk of it spreading from flat to flat, and prevent it spreading within the over-cladding. These cavity barriers are made of both the previously-mentioned stone fibre insulation (around the windows and at the party walls) and also intumescent (a material which expands when heated) seals and steel at the party floors. The intumescent steel fire stop which, when it heats up, expands to block any fire.
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Reports of protestors 'storming' the Kensington and Chelsea town hall
The whole thing is getting worse and more anger-inducing by the second.
The decision to use less safe cladding was a conscious one:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors ]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/manufacturer-of-cladding-on-grenfell-tower-identified-as-omnis-exteriors[/url]
The death toll may well rise to over a hundred.
The Sun and Mail are acting appallingly:
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jun/16/mail-online-story-about-alleged-cause-of-grenfell-fire-prompts-more-than-1100-complaints ]https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jun/16/mail-online-story-about-alleged-cause-of-grenfell-fire-prompts-more-than-1100-complaints[/url]
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital ]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital[/url]
Feels a bit like Hillsborough all over again in some regards only this time it won't take 25 years to get to the truth. Governments have fallen over less serious things than this.
It's a damning indictment of this country in its current state.
Wouldn't it be nice if people started to get really sick of these appalling rags?
I'd like to say they will.
But they don't seem to.
Used to be an RBKC employee.
A few years ago, they merged with Fulham and Hammersmith, and Westminster councils.
Becoming the tri borough.
The aim was to cut costs.a lot of RBKC employées left or were made redundant.
Ooooh
Whole world knows this is a problem
Ex K&C tenant mo employee talking about cuts
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-london-40239008?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5943dad2e4b0e782061ba31f%26Former%20KCTMO%20employee%3A%20Not%20surprised%20something%20happened%26&ns_fee=0#post_5943dad2e4b0e782061ba31f
Unsubstantiated rumour alert - I have a friend who works as a counsellor in London and went to offer her services free of charge.
She posted on FB today that she and other volunteers were asked to produce their licences, apparently because someone from the media had pretended to be a counsellor to get an interview.
This would make me ashamed to be a journalist but I don't recognise the hate-mongers who work for rags like the Sun and Mail as brethren in any way. Instead it makes me sad that so many people read these disgusting publications.
I can't verify how true this is but my S/O told me about the Victoria Derbyshire bit earlier today and now this has appeared in my Google news feed.
If it is true.. well I'm not sure what to say..
I predict a riot unfortunately.
Does seem a worrying possibility over the weekend.
Hot, dry weather won't help.
re: my above post
I am seeing that a lot of new sites are saying they have not been asked not to report and there is no D-notice. If the above post is incorrect, it was not my intention to spread so called fake news. Just reporting what came into my Google news feed.
Would be sadly ironic, the Tories coming to power was marked by a riot, surely this would mark the end
Just got in. Watching the news with some astonishment and disgust. So first May and Kensington council sit on their hands, offer platitudes and refuse to engage with the community. Then May after a barrage of negative PR seeks to save face by doing another visit where she again refuses to face the public, and the council continues to do next to nothing. Result? A near riot, and probably more trouble to come, and they'll be completely justified. May should resign. The council top brass should be sacked immediately, and the directors of KCTMO should be arrested and questioned on suspicion of corporate manslaughter. If that happens they might just avoid the whole of inner London exploding.
All the politicians need to be very aware of what their actions say and do. May needs to meet some people, but equally Corbyn and Lammy need to wind in some of their over the top rhetoric. Taking people's property is illegal and wanting heads to roll will hamper the investigations.
To get the correct outcome the investigation needs time to get to the right conclusions. The Cullen report into Piper Alpha is a good example of a ' similar ' tragedy investigation and resulting outcome.
To get the correct outcome the investigation needs time to get to the right conclusions.
and the gov will take on board the recommendations, as they did after the Lakanal house fire?
Two separate demonstrations in London now, one of which is blocking the traffic in Oxford Circus. This is going to spiral out of control I think.
meanwhile the mail and the sun have a moral limbo dancing competition with the mail blaming a man whose fridge they say started the fire and the sun sending a reporter to the hospital posing as a victim's relative in order to get a story !!!!!
Yes indeed. Who would you prefer to live next door to, an Ethiopian taxi driver or a Mail/Sun reporter?
Sadly suspect Ms Allen nailed it...150+ dead and neither the council nor goverment will do anything because they're all landlords who cut corners on this type of property.
With the amount of dead and the high profile nature of this they'd be mad not too enact any findings.
Is a high death count not what we all expect? I hardly need the disaster 'expert' Lilly Allen to tell me.
I'm not so sure about how helpful Ms Allen's intervention is to be honest.
A riot will serve to draw attention away from the real issues here - I'd rather see headlines dominated by the scandal than the Mail et al shifting the narrative to the 'underclass' setting fires to cars.
Agreed - Labour Party and others need to calm things down instead of making this an excuse to bash May. McDonnell was trying to get a million people out on the streets protesting against May - not a great idea given the situation. This is turning into rabble rousing.
Unfortunate timing, but to be very clear, it was pointed out on R4 moments ago that McDonnell's comments were in reference to May's poor performance so far, and were made BEFORE the Grenfell Tower tragedy unfolded.McDonnell was trying to get a million people out on the streets protesting against May - not a great idea given the situation. This is turning into rabble rousing.
Labour Party and others need to calm things down instead of making this an excuse to bash May.
How many people have to die before they make a fuss? Ridiculous comment TBH.
dragon - MemberLammy need to wind in some of their over the top rhetoric
Lammy's taking it personally, as I'd hope would anyone else in his position.
mrmo - Member
Using a number like that is dangerous, what exactly does it mean? To a lay man £1M sounds like alot of money, but is it?
Actually I was wrong. Figures vary, but from what I can tell it was actually £8.7m in the end.
Dazh - don't put words in my mouth or insinuate anything about my views on this disaster. You don't have a monopoly on grief or anger about this.
My point is rioting will be detrimental to everyone.
Yes but Lammy is also in a position of responsibility, he can hold the relevant people to account without resorting to wanting to take illegal actions and inciting the situation.
My point is rioting will be detrimental to everyone.
And who is encouraging a riot? Certainly not the labour party, but that seems to be your implication. The labour party are doing what they should be doing, which is asking questions on behalf of people who have died and a community that has been ignored and endangered. It's not 'bashing' May, it's raising valid points about the end result of policies that her party have implemented. It's unfortunate for May that she's now the focus of this, but such is the price of leadership.
In this age of information you can only cry "we are investigating the likelyhood of a wolf" so many times.
We've lost cost of how many enquires have been kicked in to the long grass until all victims and culprits are long gone.
Its a tactic thats worn thin, we should know whos responsible within a month, they should be in prison within two.
The sceptical In me can see people being pushed out the area and those that survived being rehoused away from expensive real estate rental property's
But I'm a sceptic.
Also Calling for a mass protest in London this weekend is just asking for all sorts of militants crawling out of every sordid hole attending to smash stuff up in the name of justice. Meanwhile the affected get pushed around in political game of pong. 🙁
This is being very badly handled by the political powers of both sides.
The central London protest seems entirety peaceful and so far not inflammatory.
The Kensington council offices seemed a more genuine expression of frustration.
Some of the poorest people in the country failed utterly by the richest borough in the country. Refugees, immigrants with virtually nothing surrounded by millionaires.
Inequality, austerity, a gov that ignored recommendations into tower block safety after the last deaths, relentless demonisation of those on benefits on TV, in the right wing press, we had a referendum on how much we don't like immigrants ffs, their precious Brexit is now all the Tories care about.
It pisses off white, middle class virtue signalling lefty snowflakes like me, even rich ones like Lilly Allen.
But for those really at bottom it must be crushing
Take a look at @Fi_Rutherford's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Fi_Rutherford/status/875332304633200641?s=09
I hope the protest are peaceful and respect the sensitive nature of the tower fire. But the few will whip up anger on both sides and I'm not even sure what the sides are.
If your a Tory supporter or lefty lMAY has to go over her handling of this incedent even Maggie went to see the unwashed in hospitals I'm not even sure if MAY can even interact with the public even if she wants too?
A riot would be perfectly understandable IMO.
If it had been my family in there I'd be thinking something more Old Testament.
People seem genuinely angry from newsnight now
Hot weekend, I think it might turn violent by the end of sunday
Watched ITV news a short while ago.
Holy. Hell.
Not seen a mainstream channel be so overtly critical of a government (a whole society actually)as I saw tonight.
May is utterly destroyed.
Austerity, at least in its current form, is probably at its end too...
And as seems so common during Conservative governments this particular little epoch looks destined to end in riots.
Maitliss tearing into May on newsnight right now
Never seen an MP let alone an PM get that kind of dressing down from anyone
People seem genuinely angry from newsnight now
Watching Theresa May on it at the moment is making me angry.
Watching May on Newsnight now. It's excruciating. She still can't give a straight answer or accept any responsibility. Don't think I've ever seen a sitting PM be so completely taken apart in a tv interview like this. Why is she even bothering to continue in the job?
Yup I bet the met police are praying for rain...
May is utterly destroyed.
I'm beginning to think she'll be gone by Monday. She's only hanging around to prevent Boris stepping in, at some point she's going to throw in the towel. The wolves are circling and moving in for the kill. She was already screwed before Grenfell, I really don't see how she can continue when crowds are having to be held back by police to protect her.
Why is she even bothering to continue in the job?
Agreed she's? obviously way out of her depth, I'm not sure she's doing anyone (Tories, the country etc) any favours still being there
Portillo gave her 6 weeks at best but her reaction to this is just horrid and will end her.
She should take responsibility for this not the blame as the courts will sort that out and take anyone to heal no matter how high up they are.
Agreed she's? obviously way out of her depth, I'm not sure she's doing anyone (Tories, the country etc) any favours still being there
I'd previously advocated her staying put for the time being, but only for the damage she was doing to the tory party and the enjoyment of seeing STW's pet right wing nut jobs squirm (as well as those who have disappeared from political threads - we know who are). However, for the good of everyone and everything, she needs to go now.
£7 billion pencilled in for the Houses of Parliament refurbishment
£370 million available for Buckingham Palace refurbishment
£200,000 for installation of life saving sprinklers in a social housing tower block seems like small change.
You can see why people get angry.
For a lot of people working in public sector jobs that don't pay high salaries, such as the NHS, job centres, social services, housing etc., being on the receiving end of people's anger, fustration and anguish in highly emotionally charged situations is part and parcel of the job.
For Theresa May, the elected leader of the country, to avoid meeting the residents, possibly because she knows she is poor at dealing with ordinary people, is an utter disgrace. She needed to realise (and her advisors needed to tell her) that this is not about her, and that it's her job to damn well get out there and listen to some of these people. If she were to receive an Alex Ferguson style hairdryer speech from some of them, that's just tough and goes with the job, and if something like that had happened, it would have been a momentary unpleasantness for her and I think the country would have respected her for letting people vent their anger and frustration on her. The security concens could easily have been addressed by having the meeting indoors (and away from the media cameras - not for her benefit but out of respect for the victims who do not deserve to be a sideshow for the press).
She is not fit to be Prime Minister.
Just watched the Newsnight interview and she just looks so far out of her depth. Cringe worthy to watch someone dodge questions like that.
The police don't need a demo, they are busy enough with the current threat level. Plus could a demo be a target: a horrible idea, perverse and unsupportable, but that may not stop IS.
slowster - Member
She is not fit to be Prime Minister.
Who is fit then?
jakd95 - Member
Just watched the Newsnight interview and she just looks so far out of her depth. Cringe worthy to watch someone dodge questions like that.
What do you expect her to say?
How do you want her to express the tragedy?
Arrest the local councilors?
Arrest the contractors?
Confiscated all the houses in the area?
Who is fit then?
Louise?
chewkw - MemberWho is fit then
Take it you didn't see her on newsnight?
Don't think she answered a single question straight
She could have just answered the questions instead of repeating what her press officers prepared for her
[quote=dazh ]Why is she even bothering to continue in the job?
Because she's being made to seems to be the only obvious answer to that. Not only does nobody else (in the Tory party) want the job right now, because it's a poisoned chalice, but the Tory party leadership (the BSDs, not May) appreciates that a leadership contest would **** them up even more than they are already. May is the fall guy.
Probably ... but ...nick1962 - Member
Who is fit then?
Louise?
She's being held hostage in No.10.
By her own party.
And by Jezza. 😆
kimbers - Member
chewkw - Member
Who is fit then
Take it you didn't see her on newsnight?
I did.
Don't think she answered a single question straight
Those are not questions.
The media is desperately are trying to pin blame on her to stir things up to look credible.
She answered but the media just did not get the answers that they want.She could have just answered the questions instead of repeating what her press officers prepared for her
The media might as well script the answers for the PM to read.
Why bother to interview the PM when the media is doing the answering themselves?
What answers do you want to hear?
An honest answer chewk, she's just protecting her party though
Just remember.. "strong and stable" & "in the national interest"
This isn't something that just happens. This is a systematic failure. Reports sat on, recommendations not acted upon and a constant demonisation of the less advantaged in our society by the media.
We can ring fence £7 billion to upgrade Parliament, £400m to upgrade Buckingham Palace for probably the wealthiest family in the world, but yet across this country people go hungry & sleep on the streets. They are pushed in to modern inner city ghetto areas and generationally disadvantaged both educationally and economically.
Something needs to change in the way we see each other as human beings. Empathy not apathy for the people in these situations. I see it in the city I live in, families & kids who believe they have no hope for the future.
People here had nearly 30 years of being lied to about what happened to their loved ones at Hillsborough whilst those in power covered their own arses, Whilst the media repeated endless lies, year after year. Did anyone go to prison for their criminal neglect? I genuinely believe the people of Kensington fear that the same will happen to them
Before people say there would be no money to pay for the changes that society needs to make our futures better, again, £7 billion for parliament, £400 million for Buckingham Palace, money for endless wars, 2nd homes for MP's, billions for nuclear weapons, £30 Billion of HS2 and I could go on.
In the inner cities across the country people are angry, they have been for a long time, this tragedy should be used as the turning point for change. Social inequality is all of our problem.
Telegraph pretty disgraceful in their front page
People are angry
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Holy shit, they're terrified. I giggled a bit at Portillo's deranged rant at Liz Kendall last night, but crikey, they really are terrified.
kimbers - Member
An honest answer chewk, she's just protecting her party though
The media is trying very hard to been seen as "people's champion" by stirring up emotions.
Radical Housing Network ?
£80,000 per flat spent on a refurb ? The one critism you could make is more of that should have been spent on safety which a millions times more important than trying to retro fit environmental regulations to 40 year old buildings. Kensington and Chelsea spent more than enough to make the building safer but priorities these days are "environmental"
The block was built in 1974, did 13 years of a Labour Government from 1997-2010 (never mind all those before) fund a fire alarm system ?
Don't think she answered a single question straight
Has any politician ? ...... ever ?