[Closed] God and the Afterlife......?

elevenses already?

Neither can be measured or quantified using any methods we currently have at our disposal and so cannot physically exist.

Given the historical evolution of science, that's a very weak argument.

but where do all the calculators go?

Holly didnt believe in Silicon Heaven but as his IQ declined his faith became unshakeable

[i]but where do all the calculators go?[/i]

exactly! It just doesn't add up.

I get so angry at people who just seem to choose not to think about or address these issues and blindly stumble on.

Why on earth does it matter to you what other chose to think about?

It just doesn't add up.

5318008

Fairy stories told to children to encourage them to behave nicely, interpreted literally by raving barmpots

i reckon dying is like when they put you to sleep for a operation, but without the nice warm drousy bit when they bring you round after.
i hope it is anyway. it is not a bad feeling. 😀

Ahh but only due to them being fitted with the 'Belief Chip'

There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW

It is possible to believe in heaven AND make the most of this life.

being dead will almost definitely be a lot like not being born.

Its not real, which is why it requires faith, but it gives many people comfort to think that they will see all their loved ones again and that all wrongs are righted in our heavenly father [sic] kingdom*

* not sure about sexism/homophobia mind given what it says but hey who am I to question

Puts in grant funding with neal to develop the soulotron and heavenmajig to scan the universe for these things

make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

I agree, and some daft buggers go around killing others because they believe in god, its just twoddle.

CFH you missed the first 5

we die, then rot. our DNA is passed on in modified forms to our progeny (perhaps), our molecules will become all types of different things, and our atoms will outlast the planet.

or you go to a cloudy place and fly around on wings and that, whatever.

I know which one is better.

Puts in grant funding with neal to develop the soulotron and heavenmajig to scan the universe for these things

Game on.

I love a challenge.

Ps. I'm not disagreeing with his main point, just saying that just because science can't explain something it doesn't mean it can't exist. Lots of stuff existed before those old timey science dudes could measure or explain it.

Gravity
Oxygen
Melted cheese*
Magnetism.

*hungry.

Lots of things run through my head when cycling!

I think you need to ride in a group so you can do less thinking! 😉

The concept of a heaven always raises great emtion in people. It gives people a lot of comfort to think that people who have died go on to a greater life, espicially if they have been ill close to death. But there is no heaven, we have simply evolved to have sentient thought and we are no more important that the slug. Do slugs go to heaven? I get so angry at people who just seem to choose not to think about or address these issues and blindly stumble on. There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

I don't have faith like I used to but I have hope that there is something afterwards because I'd really like to see my Dad again.

bigrich has it

Its the opposite really science has disproved the religious claims
geoocentric universe
age of earth
Evolution etc
I see little reason to assume the biggest claim may be true just beacuse we cannot prove a negative

What if you die to find out you are actually part of a super advanced alien race and your entire 'life' has just been a Virtual Reality experience?

yeah I agree also Neal, that's why I said 'using any methods we currently have at our disposal' afterall, we have no way of knowing what will or might be invented in the future, so as we stand at this time, they cannot be proved. I'd love to be proved wrong and for there to be an afterlife..... where every hill would be a downhill. Weeeeeeeee

There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

What ??

Paulhaycraft beat me to it ... but just because you believe in heaven doesn't mean you can't live your life now

In fact I’ve found it completely the reserve

A belief in God has allow me to find heaven is a place on earth

yep I’m Belinda Carlisle … 😀

I'm not a frying panthesist

@rosey - maybe that was badly worded on my part, but I conceed you're right.

Do slugs go to heaven?

Of course they do.

is that a specific slug heaven full of leftover vegetables and a place where salt doesnt exist?

kimbers - Member
CFH you missed the first 5

Wasn't aiming for ...less! Think of it more as an I than a L....

There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

Good advice, so why are we all still here?

anyone?

Anyone?

HELLOOO!

my mistake cfh

i suppose boobies=heaven, well maybe if you are a breastfeeding baby

we are no more important that the slug

make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

....why would I bother with this.

I get so angry at people who just seem to [s]choose not to think about or address these issues and blindly stumble on[/s] assume their views are correct to the exclusion of all others.

Good advice, so why are we all still here?

[s]because we can only observe a narrow linear path through multidimensional space time[/s] Magic.

Have no interest in another religion debate (and can take being called fool!) but will share a random anecdote with you. I visited my Dads grave several times over the weekend as it was All Souls Day. On the last occassion I was alone. When I reached the grave, I leant down to give the old fella a pat and just as I touched the grass the church bell rang. Gave me a real fright. 😉

As I left, I said some parting words and everything was still and quiet. But as I finished saying what I wanted to say, the wind came up and rustled the leaves in the tree behind the grave. A few seconds later it all went quiet again.

I am not reading anything into either co-incidence but it did feel strange!!!!

So Jekkyl which one of us is

blindly stumbling on.

Becuase I've seen the light bruv .... have you ?

At the risk of immense ridicule I have to say I tend to go with the after life concept, but not necessarily in the context of established religion as such. There are two main threads to that one being the purely scientific issue of the destruction of matter, i.e. you can only convert it into energy or a different form. So your mortal remains go on after you are gone and you can follow that thought quite some way. However perhaps the more meaningful is the passing on of genes and acquired attributes from parent to child.

Its taken a long time but I've come to the conclusion that the meaning of life is summarised by its a relay race, and the deal is you just try to pass the baton on in a better place then when you received it.

That is all

@ rosey - Well I suppose I was thinking about people like my sister. She got married in a church, 2 kids both baptised but she doesn't go to church regularly and does these things just because it's what you do. For me if you're standing there in a church in front of your family at a baptism saying 'I renounce evil, I turn to christ' you should wholeheartedly believe what you're saying, otherwise there's no point. Those are pretty strong words and doesn't seem that some people [i]really[/i] consider what they are saying, that's why I get angry at them. People are free to believe what they want, but have some conviction about it.

[img] [/img]

So your mortal remains go on after you are gone

For example i could eat you and your energy has been transformed
its hard to see how you have gone on in this [ extreme] example

I could melt my bike down and make a necklace but my bike has still gone

Why on earth does it matter to you what other chose to think about?

Because their thoughts often lead to actions, and homophobia, subjugation of woman, torturing of animals, and child genital mutilation are all evil. And because "tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" and “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

But of course you knew that, as any decent civilized human being would.

@ rosey - Well I suppose I was thinking about people like my sister. She got married in a church, 2 kids both baptised but she doesn't go to church regularly and does these things just because it's what you do. For me if you're standing there in a church in front of your family at a baptism saying 'I renounce evil, I turn to christ' you should wholeheartedly believe what you're saying, otherwise there's no point. Those are pretty strong words and doesn't seem that some people really consider what they are saying, that's why I get angry at them. People are free to believe what they want, but have some conviction about it

Conversely I do go to Church regularly and haven't had any of my kids christened (or baptised). I do think that, as with many other religions, the CofE has a lot of culture / history attached and people like doing the cultural thing of having their kids christened.

Only 2 pages to get to genital mutilation this time!!!! Sorry, I must stay away....work to do!!!!

god hates those labia. and foreskins. and pigs. He should stick to adding to the 2 billion or so habitable planets in this galaxy alone. obviously better as a big picture diety.

TuckerUK, I'm interested in why you use the term evil? Those actions are obscene, masochistic, cruel etcetera but if you are an atheist, which I am being presumptuous about, would they also not be human? Evil suggest ungodly or the opposite of god. Is there a difference between good and bad or good and evil?
These are not loaded questions I'm just curious.

I think you can use the term evil without believing in religion as it means immoral basically,
What next i cannot say something is good?

Its a miracle - when i mean wow the statistical odds of that happening make it such an unlikely event i will never likely see another example in my lifetime - its not catchy is it 😉

But actions speak louder than words Jekkyl

At your neice's/ nephew's baptism all those people were there together to celebrate the birth of a child, to bring themselves closer together and to declare to one another.... no matter which words were chosen ... we'll look after this child and each other.

No bad thing ... wherever it's done.

And that's why when the thought closed my mind at my local on Sunday which happened to be a Baptism... how many of these God parents think it's a load of old rubbish ? I dismissed it ... it didn’t matter all those people standing around the font loved that child and each other and that’s it... end of argument… God was present whether they knew it or not.

I'm not religious in the sense that I follow a certain religion. But something somewhere sparked life. There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

Ermmmmmm....

Nah.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the mania displayed by some atheists to convert others to their viewpoint is very similar to that of people proselytising on behalf of a religion.

Each to their own - we don't all have to share the same beliefs, views or opinions.

But something somewhere sparked life. There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

Some brains can comprehend it - lab experiments are already creating basic components of life from scratch, all without the aid of a supreme being.

OP: [genuinely not being rude] I imagine you have not spent much time with, and observing, normal mainstream religious people and then trying to understand the paradigm of faith, in it's many forms. It's all to easy to base opinion on caricatures and extremists presented in popular media stories. My suggestion is always to study a topic through first-hand experience with an open mind before asserting it's validity, or otherwise.

I think you are mistaken is suggesting people who have faith are characterised by being disinterested in the "NOW". Quite the opposite because the principles of the faith must guide one's actions in this place, or there is no purpose to it.

It doesn't surprise me at all that the mania displayed by some atheists to convert others to their viewpoint is very similar to that of people proselytising on behalf of a religion

Slightly more enthusiastic based on this thread.

My own belief is that both the afterlife and god is total bobbins.

Neither can be measured or quantified using any methods we currently have at our disposal and so cannot physically exist.

I get so angry at people who just seem to choose not to think about or address these issues and blindly stumble on.

There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

Each to their own - we don't all have to share the same beliefs, views or opinions.

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don't follow the herd then you are an idiot. However I can firmly understand why some have an issue with organised religion, let's face it most don't exactly help themselves with the things they do in the name of their God.

TuckerUK, I'm interested in why you use the term evil?

Because both the quotes I used contained the word. You didn't really need that explaining surely?

I love it when the debate gets all intellectual like this 😕

Its a fundamental issue about the meaning of life I dont see anything wrong with being passionate whatever side of the divide you sit on.

I dont really see any attempts to convert either just people saying what they believe or what the evidence says

something somewhere sparked life

There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

Because their thoughts often lead to actions, and homophobia, subjugation of woman, torturing of animals, and child genital mutilation are all evil. And because "tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" and “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

There are billions of religious people on this planet, very many of them doing good work for all sorts of charities (as indeed are many athiests).

I'm curious however what percentage of of religious people do you believe are driven by their religion to perform the acts mentioned above? And also, what then motivates the athiests who carry out similar acts?

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don't follow the herd then you are an idiot. However I can firmly understand why some have an issue with organised religion, let's face it [b]most[/b] don't exactly help themselves with the things they do in the name of their God.

Really? I agree that [b]some [/b]don't, but most of the people I know who have a faith (mainly but not exclusively Christian) don't do any harm in the name of their god. We probably have some unpopular views, but then faith itself is pretty unpopular in the west so that's hardly a surprise.

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don't follow the herd then you are an idiot.

There is no proof of any of the following things;

Little green alien people
Unicorns
Mermaids
The Loch Ness Monster
The Queen being a lizard
Gods

If you adamantly believe in any of those things, and live your life by that belief, aren't you stupid (having or showing a lack of common sense, comprehension, perception)? If your stupid belief causes suffering to others, shouldn't we do all we can't to get it stopped?

from new scientist . . .

.IMAGINE standing outside the universe. Not just outside space, but outside time too. From this spectacular vantage point, you gaze down upon the universe. At one end you see its beginning: the big bang. At the other, you see... whatever it is that happens there. Somewhere in the middle is you, at one end a baby, the other end a corpse. From this impossible perspective, time does not flow, and ther...e is no "now". Time is static. Immutable. Frozen.

Fantastical as it seems, for most physicists today the universe is just like that. We might think of time flowing from a real past into a not-yet-real future, but our current theories of space and time teach us that past, present and future are all equally real – and fundamentally indistinguishable. Any sense that our "now" is somehow special, or that time flows past it, is an illusion we create in our heads.

Physics, in fact, has killed time as we know it.

..........................

So do we really need to mourn time's passing? Einstein, for one, drew solace from the view of the timeless universe he had helped to create, consoling the family of a recently deceased friend: "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

I like the quantum physics view 🙂

[img] [/img]

I love the idea of an afterlife for the rather selfish reason that I don’t want everything to come to a halt. And I figure I have nothing to lose by believing in it. If there is one then great. If there isn’t then I’ll never know.

One concept that I find fascinating, as well as quite plausible, is that there is an afterlife, but not a God, or at least not God as we generally think of.

What if the afterlife is essentially the sum of all human conscience? That part of the brain continues to exist even after the physical body ceases to function. Deep down we may be subconsciously vaguely aware of this, but the realities of physical existence over-ride everything else. Essentially the theory is that mankind created God and not the other way round.

I do appreciate that thoughts like that could well get me in a lot of bother when I pop my clogs mind you!

I'm curious however what percentage of of religious people do you believe are driven by their religion to perform the acts mentioned above?

Genital mutilation: the vast majority of Jews, the vast majority of Muslims, most Christians in the US and many Christians in Africa.

Homophobia & subjugation of woman: By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians.

Torturing of animals (Halal and Kosher meat): By default, all Jews and Muslims.

And also, what then motivates the athiests who carry out similar acts?

No idea.

from new scientist . . .

.IMAGINE standing outside the universe. Not just outside space, but outside time too. From this spectacular vantage point, you gaze down upon the universe. At one end you see its beginning: the big bang. At the other, you see... whatever it is that happens there. Somewhere in the middle is you, at one end a baby, the other end a corpse. From this impossible perspective, time does not flow, and ther...e is no "now". Time is static. Immutable. Frozen.

Fantastical as it seems, for most physicists today the universe is just like that. We might think of time flowing from a real past into a not-yet-real future, but our current theories of space and time teach us that past, present and future are all equally real – and fundamentally indistinguishable. Any sense that our "now" is somehow special, or that time flows past it, is an illusion we create in our heads.

Physics, in fact, has killed time as we know it.

..........................

So do we really need to mourn time's passing? Einstein, for one, drew solace from the view of the timeless universe he had helped to create, consoling the family of a recently deceased friend: "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

I like the quantum physics view

Almost exactly how C.S. Lewis describes God's view of things. Has science just proved God exists or is C.S. Lewis just an idiot... 😕

It really depends but those who ignore the more "extreme" teachings on homosexuality and contraception can indeed do some good. However the message from the church/religion, of which they belong[ i assume], is not one of tolerance to all- see the exemption to discrimination laws for gay marriage for example we have just for their special beliefs...imagine the reaction if we could openly discriminate against them.
You are right though that its influence and reach is on the decline but it is still enshrined in many areas of law - daily worship in school [ predominanently christian] for example

I like the quantum physics view

Its all very confusing but time has to be real or we dont have cause and effect, you can call this faith if you must.
the quantum world sure is a strange place.

not fully understood to put it mildly.

As opposed to religion. . . .

I'm referring to the religions, or embodiments of, themselves not the individuals.

I'd class myself as broadly Christian but have little love for the established church.

There is no proof of any of the following things;

Little green alien people
Unicorns
Mermaids
The Loch Ness Monster
The Queen being a lizard
Gods

If you adamantly believe in any of those things, and live your life by that belief, aren't you stupid (having or showing a lack of common sense, comprehension, perception)? If your stupid belief causes suffering to others, shouldn't we do all we can't to get it stopped?

I must be a stupid idiot then!....I've been called worse.

I accept i dont understand either but one is evidentially based [ if confusing] and capable of investigation and "falsification" and the other has tablets of stone handed down by God that must be true without investigation if you keep the faith

very different IMHO.

Its behind a paywall so I cannot read the article ..perhaps it is just like scientology where you pay for truths 😉

Aren't there any other superstitions we should be attacking at the same time? Or is it only those with assets and infrastructures?

it just the ones with influence that matter

[i]Do slugs go to heaven?
Of course they do.[/i]

They [i]believe[/i] they do. Otherwise, what's the point?

[img] [/img]

physics likes tries to explain what influences matter . . .

sorry will leave you to it - not religious, and have studied more science than anything else so i am biased 🙂

I could melt my bike down and make a necklace but my bike has still gone

At the risk of immense ridicule I have to say I tend to go with the after life concept

Melted cheese

HTF do religions continue?

Ignorance. Worldwide religious belief is generally highest where educational standards are lowest. And vice versa.

I think there’s a commonly held belief by many that atheists want to convert (cure?) all religious believers. Now I can’t talk for any other atheists, but I couldn’t give a rats arse what people choose to believe in, it’s merely the impingement on my life and that of others that those beliefs cause that I strongly object to. So, be my guest, believe what you like, but stop mutilating kids genitals, treating women and homosexuals as inferior beings, stop killing animals in barbaric ways, and stop telling me I can’t exercise my right to announce that I think your stupid belief is, well, stupid. In return you are quite welcome to call my adherence to proven facts stupid, I really don’t mind.

@ the ppl slating aggressively arguing athiests.... Say you knew someone who came to you one day very happy because they had won the jamican lottery and that all they needed to get the money was to email their bank account details. If you knew that the jamican lottery was a farce, wouldn't you tell them that it was load of old rubbish?

I liked Terry prachetts take on heaven where what happens when you die is whatever you believe will happen. I also think that there is a bigger debate that even if heaven doesn't physcially exist can it exist purely as a belief. I like to think that people do live on after they die, in the thoughts and memories of those that knew them.

I think you can use the term evil without believing in religion as it means immoral basically,
What next i cannot say something is good?

trucker, Because both the quotes I used contained the word. You didn't really need that explaining surely?
Maybe pick better quotes, and you used the word out of quotation.

Homophobia & subjugation of woman: By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians.

So billions of people are terrified of gay people and hate women? There's no point even debating with someone who has such a closed mind. I genuinely feel sorry for you if that is how you view your fellow human beings.

Do they have a special slug god or do they just follow one of the human religions?