I understand the point you're making and I understand that this does not make your a chuavanis (sic) or misogynist.
I still don't get the 'point'? Is the point that some men choose partners that don't work (or wish to work) outside of domestic duties and child-care?
Isn't that simply an agreement between a couple? A 'traditionalist' agreement, but still an agreement? If you feel 'aggrieved' by traditionalist roles then why choose a traditionalist arrangement?
23 years ago when I bought my flat it was twice my earnings. Now the flat is worth 6 times my earnings
would probably rise at 9 have coffee watch Tv have lunch take the dog for a walk and knock up a quick sandwich for my husband who had just put in a 16 hour day...
This (assuming not purely facetious) comment suggests one or more of the following to be true:
1. Women are 'naturally' idle compared to men?
2. Some women have been 'allowed' to be idle and so expect their partner to do the heavy workload while they do nothing other than make the odd sandwich?
3. Some men choose to pamper idle women and then assume that 'all women are idle and pampered'?
^ I've heard similar from women, also spookily coinciding with their choice of husband/partner. Simply swap the words 'women' and 'men' around in those three scenarios.
I wonder how gay/lesbian relationships get around this? Probably quite a simple task to assign traditionalist gender-roles/stereotypes/grievances to one another?
And how would the outcome have been if you were born a women?
or black, or disabled, or openly gay etc, etc,.
If you don't have to think about or deal with challenges for those without the privilege then you are privileged.
That doesn't mean you will sail through life successfully without having to try, it just means you have a headstart without doing anything at all other than being who you are.
Mikewsmith there was nothing lucky or privileged about my position, lots of hard work, huge personal sacrifice and hours that I would never dare add up got me through.
Oldman, the facts are irrelevant here. You have the wrong opinion! 😉 accept it, you were lucky and privileged!! Others have told you so.
If you don't have to think about or deal with challenges for those without the privilege then you are privileged.
That doesn't mean you will sail through life successfully without having to try
+1
Gender and Wealth privilege are so deeply embedded that many people cant see either.
Obviously I have not appreciated or understood how lucky I was as a piss poor white working class kid with a piss poor education.
I must go and thank someone for my family, home, business, education, pension fund etc, could some of the righteous folks on here tell me who to send that letter to?
Note . The house I bought for £35k (and renovated completley) was recently sold for £190k so there has been a shift in property/income however I didn't have the equivalent of an £11k tax free allowance and my first interest rate was 10% and became 12% so it's not apples for apples.
If you don't have to think about or deal with challenges for those without the privilege then you are privileged.
That doesn't mean you will sail through life successfully without having to try
+2
Gender and Wealth privilege are so deeply embedded that many people cant see either.
+1
The difficulty seems to be that "privilege" is quite a loaded word, it implies that you have obtained something without earning it. Simply by being who you are. This applies across the board, I am experiencing privilege by having being born in a Western country with a pretty good set of safety nets if I end up in trouble (financial, health etc.), I haven't earned this, it's just the luck of the draw.
Apply that concept to someone who has worked hard throughout their life, has made choices they may have regretted, been put through situations that are unpleasant etc. and it's going to get their back up. Doesn't make it less true though.
Obviously I have not appreciated or understood how lucky I was as a piss poor white working class kid with a piss poor education.I must go and thank someone for my family, home, business, education, pension fund etc, could some of the righteous folks on here tell me who to send that letter to?
It's not a personal attack, pretty much everyone here has experienced benefits of one form or another by virtue of who they are and where/when they were born.
There has never been a level playing field in society.
My brother is 55 and does a full week of manual labour.
His wife is 54 does 2 days a week and will stop that next year.
This doesn't sound odd.
Reverse the scenarios and my brother would be deemed a scrounging parasite.
Even I would think it and I'm the one moaning about it.
We've all been indoctrinated.
I think things have got a little confused in this discussion. Just being a white male doesn't necessarily make you more privileged than a white female. Wealth has a lot of influence on the outcome. I happen to be a white female and because of family wealth and a good foot on the ladder plus lots of hard work I feel extremely privileged and have no grudges to bare. We need to stop bringing up individual examples of either a privileged women or unprivileged man in this argument to argue a point which is not about an individual person but an overall group.
Things are going in the right direction and equality hopefully will get there at some point benefiting both men and women along the way.
Hopefully the changing of traditional roles means there will be less unhappy men feeling they are carrying the burden of work but this requires more work on equality in the business world and around maternity and child care costs.
Zippy hits nail on head.
Has that video of the race where people are asked to step forward been posted yet?
Obviously I have not appreciated or understood how lucky I was as a piss poor white working class kid with a piss poor education.
The singularly most disadvantaged group in terms of education right now are white working class boys. This is something that many people on this thread seem to ignore or just don't know about. You weren't privileged at all and your position today is as much to do with luck and hard work as anyone else.
But here is the real issue with the small group of people intent on levelling the 'white male privilege' accusation at people.
A disproportionate amount of crime, in particular violent crime, is perpetrated by young black men. And 100% of radical Islamist atrocities are committed by people masquerading in the name of Islam.
Are those same people so quick to use the 'white male privilege' label, as keen to stereotype young black men as violent criminals or all Muslims as terrorists?
No of course they don’t and they don’t because to make broad, punitive judgements about a person based on their outward characteristic, regardless of what the big picture data may tell you, is the very definition of bias, prejudice and discrimination.
Why then is it ok to assume that if you’re white and male, you must therefore be privileged? It may well be true; it may well be that a person has experienced an advantage or a fortunate path through life. No one is saying it doesn’t happen, just like no one is denying there isn’t a problem with disenfranchised young black men and Muslims.
But to assume it is the case and then point a finger at someone at throw that vile comment at them, well that makes you a bigot, plain and simple and if you think it’s going to fix the problem, take a look at just how well that’s worked in the US.
Oldmanmtb- I agree that you're not especially "privileged" but has it occurred to you that your wife is because that was your choice as a couple? That's not how all women live, so don't tar us with the same brush. Tell her you're having a 4-month break next summer to ride your bike, she can get off her arse and work.
The singularly most disadvantaged group in terms of education right now are white working class boys. This is something that many people on this thread seem to ignore or just don't know about
I know their results are amongst the poorest. But tell me more about the educational disadvantage they suffer?
^ sorry if my post above sounds a bit harsh but it is so frustrating and annoying to hear that couples make some mutual decision that the woman doesn't work (or works fewer hours than the man), and the man decides that all women are privileged! Apart from 3 months travelling when I was 24, two 6-month maternity leaves, and 5 weeks unpaid leave last year, I've worked full-time for the past 27 years.
The singularly most disadvantaged group in terms of education right now are white working class boys. This is something that many people on this thread seem to ignore or just don't know about. You weren't privileged at all and your position today is as much to do with luck and hard work as anyone else.
This isn't a discussion about education, it's about choices and opportunities throughout life. I would be interested in knowing the source of your information on this though?
A disproportionate amount of crime, in particular violent crime, is perpetrated by young black men..
Not just black men, either pretty much all of violent crime is committed by men. I'm quite happy to accuse that group, as a class, but not individually as being the singularly largest cause of the problem. However, applying that as a blanket approach doesn't work as you have correctly stated.
Of course, this is a whole different ball game to the white, male privilege discussion. Too many other factors involved, for example deprevation, racism etc. These also limit the choices that a range of ethnic minorities have to play with.
Why then is it ok to assume that if you’re white and male, you must therefore be privileged?
Because it's true. Your choices have been made within a far wider framework than others. If you don't acknowledge this then you can't fix it. I know it's not palatable, or pleasant to accept you (the generic you, not you personally) have had a head start in life, but it is true.
The difficulty seems to be that "privilege" is quite a loaded word,
Exactly and why many people on this thread still don't seem to understand.
A white working class male has more privilege than a black working class female but they both have way less privilege than the son of a billionaire who attended Eton, Oxford etc,.
Because it's true. Your choices have been made within a far wider framework than others. If you don't acknowledge this then you can't fix it. I know it's not palatable, or pleasant to accept you (the generic you, not you personally) have has a head start in life, but it is true.
Maybe, but minority youngsters in London have far more opportunities than white males in Grimsby. The danger is that you have a generation of minority kids who think they are hard done by and that all white people are privileged and out to **** them. I've met youngsters like that brfore and it is partly what fuels terroriam.
Why has privilege or lack of it, become a game of one upmanship to see who is top of the victim pile?
Kerley, a white working class male from the north has less opportunity than a black female in the south. I don:t know many white working class lads working in finance up tet north.
Tom_W1987 - Member
Because it's true. Your choices have been made within a far wider framework than others. If you don't acknowledge this then you can't fix it. I know it's not palatable, or pleasant to accept you (the generic you, not you personally) have has a head start in life, but it is true.
Maybe, but minority youngsters in London have far more opportunities than white males in Grimsby. The danger is that you have a generation of minority kids who think they are hard done by, that all white people are privileged and out to **** them. I've met youngsters like that brfore and it is partly what fuels terroriam.
Cite?
Why has privilege or lack of it, become a game of one upmanship to see who is top of the victim pile?
It's the modern way, everything is competition now.
I dont have to cite, finance in London is either full of posho white kids or local Asian kids - who have access to London from a young age.
You know we're getting close to equality when men know what an unhappy marriage feels like. 😉
Not just black men, either pretty much all of violent crime is committed by men.
Yes true but it's committed by less than 5% of the total male population (I think the prison population is something like 2.8% to illustrate the point) so the fact that the perpetrators are male doesn't tale anything about masculinity, it only tells you about that 5%.
These also limit the choices that a range of ethnic minorities have to play with.
Absolutely and I don’t think you were suggesting I didn't get that but for clarity I do. There are reasons why young black men are committing such a large amount violent crime (they are massively over represented in the data); it is the consequence of being disenfranchised and we really need to address why. Lack of positive role models, lack of legitimate opportunities, abundance of illegitimate opportunities etc).
Because it's true. Your choices have been made within a far wider framework than others.
The concept is a hypothesis people use to explain why there are differences in life outcomes between social and racial groups.
There is no direct evidence for 'privilege’, it’s a conclusion that people draw in contrast to the negative experiences of others rather than as something you can determine and measure in those that you allege experience it. So for example, if all xyz groups experience some sort of disadvantage in life, therefore if you’re not a member of one of those groups, by exclusion you must be privileged.
It’s a really poor social hypothesis though because it requires no proof, it just is true like you say and any attempt to try and disprove it will be met with a similar trope like response.
You cannot possible derive a conclusion that because abc bad things happen to one group of people, therefore a different group of people must be privileged. That’s really poor reasoning. It’s even more vile when you start to level it at individuals because you’re then also making the mistake of using broad conclusions and large population groups to make punitive judgements aimed at individuals.
This is something Marxism has always been guilty of; when it fails the response is ‘oh well that’s not real Marxism’. It’s a (failed) line of reasoning and logic that the very far left is has always been guilty of (read Karl Popper’s ‘All Life is Problem Solving’ for a more robust explanation of what I’m talking about).
Marxism now, we're a Godwin away from a full house here.
Maybe, but minority youngsters in London have far more opportunities than white males in Grimsby. The danger is that you have a generation of minority kids who think they are hard done by and that all white people are privileged and out to **** them.
Oh I quite agree, sexism, racism, social disadvantage are all significant factors, singling one particular discrimination out without the context is dodgy ground.
You cannot possible derive a conclusion that because abc bad things happen to one group of people, therefore a different group of people must be privileged.
Black people are eight times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police than white people, therefore as a white person I am more privileged in that I am more likely to avoid inconvenient police attention.
I should add when I was younger i worked in a lot of rough areas of London, we drove sporty hatches or dodgy vans, dressed like crims and would skulk around at night and odd times in residential areas, Never randomly stopped, none of my colleagues bar the one BEM officer was ever stopped on sus.
It’s even more vile when you start to level it at individuals because you’re then also making the mistake of using broad conclusions and large population groups to make punitive judgements aimed at individuals.
I refer you to my previous comments regarding individuals versus groups, and also my comments on the context within which these discussions take place - all other things being equal, which in the real world they are patently not.
You cannot possible derive a conclusion that because abc bad things happen to one group of people, therefore a different group of people must be privileged.
I'm not sure that's particularly true and certainly seems to over simplify the information I've stumbled across in my amateur research on the subject. Social science needs to take broad brush approaches and be subject to challenges, exactly like you, and numerous others have done. I have based my opinions on the research I have done, if you can provide any information other than your own direct, and your friends/professional contacts experiences then I'd be quite happy to view it?
Oh I quite agree, sexism, racism, social disadvantage are all significant factors, singling one particular discrimination out without the context is dodgy ground.
Yes, and of course the way in which these factors interact is the important part. The disadvantage associated with being back and poor is not the same as that associated with being black and rich. Or female and disabled etc. There are also limiting factors which are rarely included in the model, e.g.geyond a certain level of poverty or affluence it doesn't matter what colour you are or with a certain social class it doesn't matter what the other factors are. It doesn't help to model these as simple non-interacting non-confounding factors.
White male privilege is a thing, but maybe it is less of an advantage in certain social strata or financial position
White male privilege is a thing, but maybe it is less of an advantage in certain social strata or financial position
Agreed.
Why has privilege or lack of it, become a game of one upmanship to see who is top of the victim pile?
Without working out who is at the top of the victim pile, you can't see who needs the most help!
Though using it as an excuse (not a reason I hasten to add) for antisocial/criminal behaviour does seem to be flagged up by certain sections of the Press for malicious purposes on a regular basis too...
Why has privilege or lack of it, become a game of one upmanship to see who is top of the victim pile?
I'm not sure it has in the context of this debate. However, me and my entire peer group work ourselves into an early grave while wives do hobby jobs/part time jobs/no jobs. Given that, it sticks in my throat to be told how lucky I am and how women are disadvantaged in the workplace when it's clear the sole reason they're disadvantaged in the work place is because they give up full time work en-mass in their mid 30's. ...and then the final insult is men are all told that we're somehow enforcing gender stereotypes by going out to do the work we'd mostly rather not be doing.
However, me and my entire peer group work ourselves into an early grave while wives do hobby jobs/part time jobs/no jobs.
Your lives sound shit, if only we lived in a society that made it easier for women to maintain careers while raising a family...
So...don't do it
🙂
Without working out who is at the top of the victim pile
That right there, the notion that there is a ‘victim pile’ is where the left and right fundamentally disagree.
The left see victims as helpless and incapable rectifying their own problems. The right sees success as the result of an individuals industriousness and personal endeavour.
In making those judgements neither of which are necessarily incompatible, both sides then make negative assumptions about the other group.
Personally while I don’t deny that there are victims, the way the left has politicised the concept of victim hood, giving rise to the notion of grievance politics, is as distasteful as the right’s preponderance for victim blaming.
Outofbreath- I'm amazed that it still hasn't occurred to you that your peer group could be pretty narrow and unrepresentative. I don't know many women who are doing what you describe within your peer group.
I'm not suggesting I'm a victim but I do suspect that I'm paid less than men doing the same job because I know the men drove a hard bargain and negotiated their salaries whereas I just accepted what was offered without negotiation.
We need to stop grouping people together and defining them on a single common trait such as colour, religion, gender ect. That only fuels division and is way too simplistic. There are white people in this country from many other countries, go tell a group of Polish lads they have white privilege and they have an unfair advantage. It's ridiculous and insulting. I suppose all the Irish immigrants who came here in the 1800s were privileged as well because they were white. You are all falling into a trap, the real issue is inequality of wealth and how wealth is unevenly distributed. It so happens that those who benefit the most from that are people who are white males. Of course they are, this is a predominantly white country therefore there have been generations of white families building up obscene amounts of wealth over time. White males are just as likely to suffer from the consequences of that as any other group. We should be looking at the haves and have nots and trying to balance that out. Not stoking up racial and sexual divisions.
However, me and my entire peer group work ourselves into an early grave while wives do hobby jobs/part time jobs/no jobs. Given that, it sticks in my throat to be told how lucky I am.......
It was YOUR CHOICE AS A COUPLE!!
The right sees success as the result of an individuals industriousness and personal endeavour
And this is the epitome of neo-liberalism. The problem with this model is that it then leaves the responsibility for addressing lack of success or disadvantage to the individual or 'big society' and the state does abnegates responsibility.
That right there, the notion that there is a ‘victim pile’ is where the left and right fundamentally disagree.The left see victims as helpless and incapable rectifying their own problems. The right sees success as the result of an individuals industriousness and personal endeavour.
Oh gods make it stop
Your lives sound shit, if only we lived in a society that made it easier for women to maintain careers while raising a family...
We do. It's acheived by allowing women to work part time/give up work and get hobby jobs.
Which is great.
...but when men get attacked for somehow being the winners in this arrangement it's really taking the piss.
...but fin25, you're at the beginning of this process. At the moment she's telling you she's going back to work full time. Then she'll decide part time is better, or that she'd quite like to do part time kitchen design or photography. Or maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones and she'll stay in full time work and you can kick back a bit, but the odds aren't good. The odds are you've been duped. But as Vickypea says, "It was YOUR CHOICE AS A COUPLE!!". So that's ok.
The left see victims as helpless and incapable rectifying their own problems. The right sees success as the result of an individuals industriousness and personal endeavour.
Alas, if it were only that simple!
We need to stop grouping people together and defining them on a single common trait such as colour, religion, gender ect. That only fuels division and is way too simplistic. There are white people in this country from many other countries, go tell a group of Polish lads they have white privilege and they have an unfair advantage. It's ridiculous and insulting. I suppose all the Irish immigrants who came here in the 1800s were privileged as well because they were white. You are all falling into a trap, the real issue is inequality of wealth and how wealth is unevenly distributed. It so happens that those who benefit the most from that are people who are white males. Of course they are, this is a predominantly white country therefore there have been generations of white families building up obscene amounts of wealth over time. White males are just as likely to suffer from the consequences of that as any other group. We should be looking at the haves and have nots and trying to balance that out. Not stoking up racial and sexual divisions.
I agree completely with the sentiment of this, but unfortunately much of the haves and have-nots are in their respective positions precisely because of the racial, sexual, class etc. divisions that society has created. Ignoring this fundamental problem is not getting to the root of the problem.
It was YOUR CHOICE AS A COUPLE!!
Much like your choice not to negotiate for the same wages as males doing the same job?
