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Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Seen that quote from Weitz many times, but it has no named source and no other journalist has confirmed or second sourced it.
Look Israel let money into Gaza, that went to Hamas as the defacto administration there since the 2006 elections. Arguably Israel shouldn’t have recognised Hamas as being legimate, based on their narrow win and their behaviour since (towards other Palestinians, not just Israelis). That doesn’t mean what you claim it means. And it isn’t a mistake any Israeli government will make again, which is why any future peace that includes Hamas controlling Gaza again looks like a moonshot.
Cast your minds back to before those 2006 elections though, Israel and the USA were doing everything they could to bolster Fatah’s chances, and restrict the reach of Hamas candidates. It is a very selective reading of the past to suggest that the success of Hamas politically was engineered or desired by the Israeli authorities. But in the years since they have had to deal with Hamas. That is likely over though, and the future for the people of Gaza (most of which have never voted for Hamas, or supported its terrorism) is now more desperate than ever. When there is a change of leadership in Israel, and the warmongers there have less power and sway, who will they deal with going forward? Can that be Hamas? If not, who? Hard to see any positive path now.
Seen that quote from Weitz many times, but it has no named source and no other journalist has confirmed or second sourced it.
Hmmm, strange then that an Ex Israeli Prime Minister and an Ex Israeli General have both said basically the same, as can be evidenced earlier in the thread.
However, this is all beginning to go around in circles, with no real progress, so, moving on...
where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?
There’s enough to discuss without inventing things.
I didn't write the article, I suggest a strongly worded letter to the Wall Street Journal.
As you say, Israel imprisoned Yassin in 1984 when he was found with weapons (still before he founded Hamas) so they clearly weren’t cooperating with him then.
You seem to have forgotten what you posted, here's a reminder:
in the 70s Yassin was running a charity proving things like medical care and youth clubs and didn’t form Hamas until the late 80s. As the article acknowledges later, there was no reason to go after someone who at the time was ‘100% peaceful towards Israel.’
In the early 80s Yassin was, despite you pointing out he was supposed "100% peaceful towards Israel", actively involved in illegal possession of arms, the establishment of a military organization and calling for the annihilation of Israel, according to his conviction in an Israeli military court.
Israel very clearly made a huge miscalculation and mistake when they tried to sow divisions among Palestinians in an attempt to draw support away from, at that time, the hugely popular PLO.
And it eventually worked - the PLO lost control of the Gaza strip. It just didn't have the consequences that Israel obviously hoped for.
Why can't you just accept that Israel made a huge mistake at that time with regards to the emerging Hamas movement?
Israel makes lots of huge mistakes and it is currently making the biggest mistake of its entire history. Its response to the Oct 7 attack could not possibly have been worse.
They have managed to turn global public opinion firmly against themselves, even public opinion in their closest and most vital ally the United States. They have not achieved their stated aim of defeating Hamas nor will they.
They are acting like recruiting sergeants for Hamas which is now more popular than it was before Oct 7. Gaza has over one million children, they have 'only' managed to kill about fourteen and a half thousand, they are currently fighting the children which they didn't manage to kill in the half a dozen military incursions into Gaza of the last 20 years. In the future they will fighting the children that survive this one.
As the result of Netanyahu and his far-right government's policies of the last six months Israel will now never ever have peace and security. They have guaranteed its eventual inevitable demise.
Smarter more level-headed zionists might have taken a more pragmatic approach, especially as the Middle East's importance to the West's energy needs will collapse in the coming decades.
The far-right Israeli governments of recent times (and they invariably became evermore right-wing) have totally screwed up . Zionism was the left-wing utopian dream which will be killed by far-right bigots.
where do we stand on the IDF targeting aid convoys and civilians seeking aid?
I assumed that was a rhetorical question. Everybody will be against it.
Glad to hear it, there's been far too much divide and conquer going on elsewhere!
That said, surprised how tolerant the majority have been on the aid convoy issue...
The issue of the attack on the World Central Kitchen aid convoy because of Jose Andre's closeness to the Biden administration is probably not quite as straightforward as just yet another aid convoy attacked by Israel.
There is no doubt imo that the attack was deliberate but it is plausible that the decision to do so was taken at a local level, as the Israeli government claims.
One of the officers who took the decision to order the attack is a right-wing religious settler from the occupied West Bank.
West Bank settlers are known to be exceptionally anti-Palestinian fanatical zionists - they kill Palestinians in the occupied West Bank on more or less a daily basis.
In the letter, Col Mandel, a religious nationalist who lives in a settlement in the occupied West Bank, called with more than 130 other reserve officers and commanders for the flow of aid into Gaza to be restricted.
The letter was sent on January 20 to the Israeli War Cabinet and the IDF chief of staff and implored them to “do everything in your power” not to allow “humanitarian supplies and the operation of hospitals inside Gaza City” following its evacuation.
So the person who took the decision to attack the aid convoy was someone who passionately believed that Palestinian civilians should not receive any aid but was not necessarily, at least on this occasion, following orders.
I reckon that probably reflects the culture that exists in the IDF. They are an undisciplined, lawless, and incompetent, rabble who believe that they have a carte blanche to do whatever they want, including commit war crimes, because frankly they always get away with it.
"Engagement through back channels... is how governments attempt to deal with groups with both political and terrorist intentions...The alternative is going after them militarily"
Well, not quite. Another course of action would have been to recognise that despite their frequent incompetence and venality, Fatah running a functioning Palestinian National Authority would have been in Israel's long term interest in security. (Fatah did settle down once it got into the boring business of government, much like Sinn Fein and the Taliban. A functioning PNA probably would have led to a "permanently interim" solution that would have suited Israel fine). If that is right, then there was no need to encourage division between Hamas and Fatah, or fail to interfere with Hamas's rise.
By the way - throughout all this there is a weird assumption that Israel has the ability to determine the course of Palestinian politics. That's not true. It is one of many influencing factors, and an important one, but the Palestinians themselves have agency. The Fatah-Hamas split did not occur merely because of the Israelis' actions. Equally, as we have seen, despite all the PR Israel is just as cack-handed and amateurish in its attempts to play 4D chess as everyone else in the world.
despite all the PR Israel is just as cack-handed and amateurish in its attempts to play 4D chess as everyone else in the world
Whilst there may be an element of truth in the cack handed and amateurish approach:
https://twitter.com/AssalRad/status/1780698058369704145
(as an aside, can anyone think of any other global statesman still in power who played a role in the disastrous and illegal invasion of Iraq? ...of course, it wasn't so long ago that Mark Sedwill was the most powerful unelected employee of HM Government, but he's moved on to pastures new)
Israel does have a vast influence on the global community both in terms of politics and the media and a regular supply of arms subsidized by tax payers outside of their nation; how do they pull this off, despite being recognized as an apartheid state?
On the whole this thread is going very well. However, I have sent a single message today to a user. Not a warning just a friendly reminder.
Be careful when you post. If you find yourself typing the words, 'you..' for example.. 'You said...', 'Why don't you...'. etc.. then just take a pause and re-think what you want to say. That's how debate and discussion turn personal and become argument. Don't let that spoil what is currently are very well behaved, mature thread.
As you were 🙂
A slight crossover into cycling:
"There are no innocent Gazans.”
From the above link. That claim is used by some Israeli politicians to justify the killing of 33 thousand people in Gaza, mostly women and children,
On the subject of West Bankers hating Palestinians... I have some experience there.
I have family living in Kiryat Arba. We went to visit them a few years ago and and on a trip to the nearby Machpela Cave in Hebron I was treated to an eye-opening tour of the area:
"Here are the steps which used to be the only place the Muslim rulers allowed Jews to pray for 700 years."
"Here are the houses where the occupants were tortured and murdered in the '29 massacre, no Jews were allowed back until very recently and even now it's a fight"
"Here's the spot where an Arab sniper shot a baby in a pram, look that's where his house used to be (now an IDF guard post)"
"Here's where the Arabs killed X"
"Here's where the Arabs destroyed Y"
At the time he was a bus driver on the Jerusalem - Kiryat Arba route, this public bus service has to be bullet-proof and regularly came under stone/bullet attack.
TBF on the other hand this person used to be a member of Kach (the rabidly anti-Arab party which was banned from the Knesset in the 80's for being racist) and thinks Baruch Goldstein was a hero, but it really showed me the depth of feeling in the area and that from the point of view of the settlers, they are the ones who've been unfairly treated and thrown out of their homeland by the Arabs/Palestinians.
Sadly, I don't see a solution happening anytime soon.
I was always disappointed when Froome went to cycle for an Israeli cycling team, but that from his wife is pretty shocking. I'm sure it won't reflect well on him either.
I've never heard of that lady before, but I notice that she and her husband are both repeat immigrants: first to South Africa and then to Monaco. I think he speaks French but I wonder how her Xhosa or Zulu or French are, or how well she has integrated with Monegasque society...?
The UK isn't known for its hostility towards the Israeli government and yet according to the current UK government:
"There have been unprecedented levels of violence by extremist settlers in the West Bank over the past year. Some residents of illegal Israeli settlements and outposts have used harassment, intimidation and violence to put pressure on Palestinian communities to leave their land."
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-sanctions-extremist-settlers-in-the-west-bank
Since Oct 7 483 Palestinians have been violently killed by either settlers or the IDF in the West Bank. Which exposes as a lie the claim that getting rid of Hamas is the solution - Hamas has no control of the West Bank.
I don't know why the UK government is only imposing sanctions on some Israeli settlers and not the Israeli government btw since moving civilians into occupied territories is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention - a war crime.
And the UK government obviously recognises that as it clearly states that the Israeli settlements are "illegal", which ultimately the Israeli government is responsible for.
I don’t know why the UK government is only imposing sanctions on some Israeli settlers and not the Israeli government btw since moving civilians into occupied territories is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention – a war crime.
I’d put a uk travel ban on every single person living in an illegal settlement, perhaps that would make a difference especially if the US would follow
Not much information on the BBC still, lets hope it calms down.......
The ball has now been passed over to Iran, their bluff has been called so to speak.
If Iran responds we will have a tit for tat series of exchanges.
It is too early to say but it would appear that Iranian air defences may have coped with last night's Israeli strike - apparently Iran is playing down the strike and saying that they have no plans to respond.
The International Atomic Energy Agency has confirmed there was no damage to any nuclear sites despite the widely circulated claim that they were the Israeli target.
If it is a case of Iranian air defences holding out, something which apparently the Iranians have been focusing on in recent years, then that is bad news for the Israelis - the only serious military advantage Israel has over Iran is in air power.
Although Israel might not have been attempting to actually inflict any significant damage. Yesterday on pro Palestinian social media I read a very bizarre claim that the United States had pleaded with Iran to let Israel carry out a token strike so not to lose face.
Yesterday on pro Palestinian social media I read a very bizarre claim that the United States had pleaded with Iran to let Israel carry out a token strike so not to lose face.
According to C4 last night Israel had agreed to a token strike in exchange for US acquiescence in an attack on Rafah. As the Palestinian ambassador put it - Palestinian blood is the cheapest currency.
The ball has now been passed over to Iran, their bluff has been called so to speak.
That’s one way to put it. Another is to say that their patience has been tested (again).
Iran has had a pretty robust missile defence system for quite a while. It's used the S-300 era soviet missile as the basis for its own development; the Bavar 373 systems, which [on paper at least] is formidable. It's said to have the ability to track stealth and multiple targets simultaneously The trouble Iran has is that it's air force is well behind the capabilities of pretty much every one around them. They still operate pre-1979 F-14, F4 and F5s (fun fact; the Iranians are the only air force other than the US Navy to operate the F14), they do have some developments of old F5, but they're not much use. I know they have done a deal with Putin to exchange drones for a batch of Su-35, but I don't know whether 1. they've been delivered or 2. they're operational. Regardless, the IAF is no match for the Israeli air force if they decided to launch more than a few missiles. Israel can't operate with impunity over Iran, but it wouldn't take long.
Having said all that. Geographically, Iran is pretty much invasion-proof, and there's thankfully no way Israel can take it on. This current tit-for tat can only escalate into a air war or just continually launching pointless missiles at each other- and the countries in between both Iran and Israel aren't going to be well chuffed about that carrying on much longer I'd have thought.
Another "oops-sorry" moment from the IDF today, dropping bombs on the area in Rafah that was "supposed" to be a safe refuge.
Link below into the Washington posts report regarding the Israeli slaughter of 6yr old Hind Rajab and her family along with the ambulance crew sent to rescue them.
If it is a case of Iranian air defences holding out, something which apparently the Iranians have been focusing on in recent years, then that is bad news for the Israelis – the only serious military advantage Israel has over Iran is in air power.
A limited strike using only missiles (launched from outside Iran) which penetrated the defences of Khatami Air Base and damaged an S300 SAM radar site https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68866548
That it's part of the defence for the Natanz nuclear site tells Iran something about its air defences
Protests against Benjamin Netanyahu continue in Israel over his conduct before and throughout this conflict https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/thousands-israelis-join-anti-government-protests-calling-new-elections-2024-04-20/
Unfortunately opposition to Netanyahu is often because he is not considered right-wing enough:
An opinion poll shows that 82% of Israelis want the IDF to launch an assault on Rafah, despite very strong opposition from the United States and the UK because of the likely very high civilian casualties due to the hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians currently there.
And another opinion poll shows that two thirds of Israeli oppose any humanitarian aid for Gaza.
A limited strike using only missiles (launched from outside Iran) which penetrated the defences of Khatami Air Base and damaged an S300 SAM radar site https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68866548
That it’s part of the defence for the Natanz nuclear site tells Iran something about its air defences
Tells Iran that its nuclear deterrent - should it acquire one - risks being destroyed in its silos and needs to be launched before that happens. What could possibly go wrong?
US-Israel: Netanyahu to reject any sanctions on army units
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68870273
Whilst the Biden administration has under pressure been forced to impose sanctions against individual Israeli West Bank settlers I didn't expect to see any time soon the United States government impose sanctions on entire IDF units.
After decades of getting away with doing whatever they fancied doing the Israelis are very slowly starting to be held accountable, even by their very closest allies.
I know this is a thread talking about the politics of it all but as an aside, the footage released to the news from the IDF that looks like a ‘first person shooter’ video game, filmed from body worn cameras of troops, I find deeply offensive
Could be worse, your TV license could be funding propaganda...
Could be worse, your TV license could be funding propaganda...
Oh...
https://twitter.com/markcurtis30/status/1781947956368757178
Believe it when I see it.
Well in the grand scheme of things I am sure that US sanctions on the Netzah Yehuda battalion will have no practical consequences on the IDF's operational abilities, so for that reason I wouldn't dismiss it.
However just the Biden administration talking about it, never mind implementing the sanctions, is hugely politically damaging to Israel and to Netanyahu in particular.
I also don't doubt that Biden would much rather not go down that road but with this being an election year and the pressure on him, especially from Democrats, to get tough on Israel massively increasing he feels that he has no option but to carry out some Israel/Palestine policy window dressing.
Israeli behaviour in occupied West Bank appears to be particularly unpopular with US voters, including apparently the majority of American Jews.
So a big probelm I hear is the US trying to get some funding approved for Ukraine, it seems like the American system is just log-jammed into paralysis with differences of opinion.
Making the correct noises is one thing, but actually doing something is a different matter. It's probably a hard sell to the american people at the moment, and it's also election year (yikes).
The breathless twitter posted revealing secret RAF involvement in the conflict bears no relation to the story printed in Declassified UK. If you read Declassified UK; it doesn't mention the flights from Israel to the UK, or the spy missions or sending jets to Israel, it just says the RAF (stationed in Cyprus) was involved in intercepting drones from Iran over Syria and Jordan because of an agreement made in 2020, and targeting Houthi's launching attacks on international shipping.
The question the article poses is: Should the UK be shielding Netenyahu's regime (by shooting down drones) from the consequences of its actions? To which the answer is: If it prevents further needless civilian deaths, then probably, yes.
There's plenty on Declassified UK for all to see
RAF flights to Israel
The MoD also admitted on Tuesday that it has flown close to 50 RAF operated aircraft to Israel since it began bombing Gaza.The department told parliament: “As of 2 February 2024, a total of 48 RAF operated aircraft have flown to Israel since 7 October 2023.”
It added: “These flights included aircraft used to transport Ministers and senior officials conducting diplomatic engagements with Israel.”
Declassified could find no similar flights in the two months before the Gaza campaign began.
The majority of these flights are vast C-17 and A400 military transport aircraft which have gone from RAF Akrotiri, the sprawling British air base on Cyprus, to Tel Aviv.
The UK government claims the dozens of flights have “provided no lethal or military equipment other than medical supplies to Israel”.
But it is possible the US and Israel are using bases in Britain to move weapons to Israel.
Asked whether the US has used any RAF bases in the UK to transfer weapons to Israel since 7 October 2023, the MoD responded that it “does not comment on Allies’ operations”.
It has the same policy of secrecy about the nature of Israeli military flights in Britain.
https://twitter.com/declassifiedUK/status/1781699342589743494
Furthermore, let's not forget that the UK continues to supply arms to Israel...
https://twitter.com/declassifiedUK/status/1780923240233284010
Although I try to keep up-to-date with what is happening in Palestine I generally go out of my way to avoid reading details of atrocities being committed in Gaza.
This latest news from the Nasser Hospital however was hard to ignore as a couple of weeks ago I went to a talk locally by a British surgeon who has been going to Gaza regularly since 2019 to help teach Palestinian doctors (Medical Aid for Palestine).
He was at the Nasser Hospital earlier this year and during his talk he showed pictures and videos of life inside the hospital. Hundreds of people were literally living inside the hospital quite simply because they had no where else to live and desperately hoped that it was the safest place from Israeli attack.
He showed where families had partitioned off areas of the hospital corridors with sheets hanging from the ceilings to give themselves some sort of privacy. He showed clothing, including children clothing, hanging to dry all along the handrails of the hospital staircase.
So I found reading the following particularly heart wrenching.
"In the hospital courtyard, civil defence members and paramedics have retrieved 180 bodies buried in this mass grave by the Israeli military. The bodies include elderly women, children and young men”
In the hospital courtyard, civil defence members and paramedics have retrieved 180 bodies buried in this mass grave by the Israeli military. The bodies include elderly women, children and young men
Why does this shit not surprise anyone?
Who can defend this kind of shite?
The question the article poses is: Should the UK be shielding Netenyahu’s regime (by shooting down drones) from the consequences of its actions? To which the answer is: If it prevents further needless civilian deaths, then probably, yes.
How about shielding the civilian Palestinians from needless deaths at the hands of Isreal's bombs?
FFS.
Although I try to keep up-to-date with what is happening in Palestine I generally go out of my way to avoid reading details of atrocities being committed in Gaza.
This latest news from the Nasser Hospital however was hard to ignore as a couple of weeks ago I went to a talk locally by a British surgeon who has been going to Gaza regularly since 2019 to help teach Palestinian doctors (Medical Aid for Palestine).
It's a hard watch/read as they discover body after body, many with their hands tied behind their backs, I suggest you avoid the twitter feed "Eye On Palestine", their reporting and pictures/videos are showing exactly what's going on and the less graphic reports are often used by the major news agencies as they can be verified
Yet much of the western world stopped funding to UNRWA because of what Israel said, including a ban on funding as part of the Israel aid deal agreed in the US yesterday, a deal which already gave twice as much funding for Isreal to buy weapons as it provided humanitarian support for Palestine. IMO Israel has been very effective in using such propaganda as an extra weapon for genocide in Palestine.
If it's in the strategic interests of the allied cause, claims don't need to be substantiated before being broadcast around the world to skew public opinion in favour of the desired outcome;
https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1781768548886397410
And anyway, we all know those aid organizations are far from innocent; look out they invariably get in the way of Israel's munitions:
https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1782038574285623397
https://twitter.com/TheLastWord/status/1763323675569504647
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1754770740518273336
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1740800184278188473
https://twitter.com/UNRWA/status/1775136904964603989
The last thing needed is people highlighting that thanks to the blockade this whole situation was going on well before the 'war' broke out...
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1716097743674810501
What do we make of the Met Police row and the CAA chief exec exercising his civil right to cross the path of the proPalestinian demo. Suella Braverman was defending it on R4 this morning while claiming she'd seen enough clips to know what happened. I hope they have her on again tomorrow now the full set of clips have come available.
IDK - he's technically right of course but putting on a Celtic shirt and walking through an Orange Order march is also technically a right but equally dumb as f****. Is that victim blaming?
What do we make of the Met Police row and the CAA chief exec
Seems the cop was being a whopper, no? Not the first time such an incident has been caught on camera.
It would be quite entertaining watching compilation clips on YT of cops being clueless if it wasn't for the significant power they wield. One could certainly hold the view that their selection and training of individuals is sub-optimal off the back of some of these interactions.
Given the fact that falter is a staunch zionist with very questionable settler rights to colonise Palestine along with his desperation to create a scene by walking through the protest in multiple places with his film crew and hired security goons to protect him I figure that Suella will double down on his right to act like a dick,
right to act like a dick
If they outlawed that this forum would be a desolate wasteland overnight.
relapsed_mandalorianFull Member
What do we make of the Met Police row and the CAA chief exec
Seems the cop was being a whopper, no?
If that's your take/understanding from falter's interaction with the protest/police interaction then...............I dunno?.....not worth my explanation
not worth my explanation
Meh, I'm not under any illusion that my thoughts or words make any difference to this conflict in any way shape or form so you do what you like old bean.
Really? Have you looked at later / longer versions of the footage?
Not really because I don't give that much of a **** to do so. So are we saying Falter is the whopper for trying to induce a conflict to cry victim?
Is this what you're referring to?
I've got to say that I think the old bill done a good job of protecting him and preventing a situation where he was likely to get his head stoved in.
(how do you report ads on YouTube videos... I've came up about Sadiq Kahn that I didn't agree with?)
Got to say, the geezer got off lightly compared to Jewish anti-zionist protestors in Germany.....
37% of arrests due to anti-zionist protestors are of Jewish people despite Jews representing less than 1% of the German population.
Great Police work although they should of arrested him he was there to just cause trouble.
Not really because I don’t give that much of a **** to do so.
Enough though to have a go at a policeman doing a bloody good job of preventing a potentially serious breach of the peace and who knows what else. Same as some senior Gov politicians who are (deliberately) ignoring the later footage to continue to call for the Met Chief to be sacked.
So are we saying Falter is the whopper for trying to induce a conflict to cry victim?
That's an interpretation, for sure. Others may see as exercising a right to dress as he wishes and go where he wishes.
"What do we make of the Met Police row and the CAA chief exec exercising his civil right to cross the path of the proPalestinian demo...he’s technically right of course but putting on a Celtic shirt and walking through an Orange Order march is also technically a right but equally dumb as f****."
1) I think it's really a separate topic about British things, and not about Gaza that is the subject of this thread
2) Your Orange Order March analogy is apt. Also, the arrest to prevent breach of the peace by the guy shouting "paedo" at Prince Andrew at Prince Philip's funeral parade in Edinburgh. It's not saying the person is wrong or doing something illegal, but it's temporarily interfering with someone's liberty to stop a fight, even if they weren't the bad guy.
3) I must be getting old and reactionary but the cop's use of the phrase of "openly Jewish" sounds very ugly from the quiet of my kitchen table, and I am no friend of the Met...but failing to come up with the exact right phrasing of a fairly complicated situation when you've been up since 5am and listening to people yell for hours...it's not the most awful thing that's happened recently.
Same as some senior Gov politicians who are (deliberately) ignoring the later footage to continue to call for the Met Chief to be sacked.
Unsurprising. Standard for the Met though, any kind of high profile issue and the standard response is to call for the Chief to be sacked. Especially since the likes of SB don't have that cabinet position anymore. The creep towards American political culture moves forward.
That’s an interpretation, for sure. Others may see as exercising a right to dress as he wishes and go where he wishes.
They're not as mutually exclusive as some might try to sell. Both can be true. Exposure serves a purpose whatever the outcome.
Really? Have you looked at later / longer versions of the footage?
Yup, when the story first broke my immediate reaction was that the copper was being a muppet and had read too much nonsense in the right-wing press.
I have been on 10 pro-Palestinian demos in Central London since Oct 7 and I have seen people being "openingly Jewish" on every single one of them, including wearing kippot as the geezer in question was, and it doesn't cause the slightest problem whatsoever.
I thought copper's behaviour was simply giving ammunition to the likes of Suella Braverman and those who want to silence any criticism of Israel. I was bitterly disappointed.
I then read the whole transcript of the incident when it became available and jeezus that copper was being incredibly reasonable and professional and remarkably patient.
In very sharp contrast to Gideon Falter who was being totally disingenuous, and very obviously desperately trying to provoke trouble on that day so that it would generate negative publicity for those criticising Israel.
I was actually really disappointed that any apology had been issued.
must be getting old and reactionary but the cop’s use of the phrase of “openly Jewish” sounds very ugly from the quiet of my kitchen table, and I am no friend of the Met…but failing to come up with the exact right phrasing of a fairly complicated situation when you’ve been up since 5am and listening to people yell for hours…it’s not the most awful thing that’s happened recently.
Quite.
Same situation, but a guy wearing the colours of a water melon and trying to stroll through a group of Jewish/Isreali supporters is also likely to cause antagonism.
In this case, police done good.
Gideon
Honestly, didn't even know this was a name associated with the Jewish faith... Always associated it with being a sign of someone being an upper class, self entitled prick.
1) I think it’s really a separate topic about British things, and not about Gaza that is the subject of this thread
Fair, but didn't want to start another thread for Mark to have to monitor that could quickly get into similar turmoil, and it's not entirely unrelated.
Poor Gideon
Got to say, the geezer got off lightly compared to Jewish anti-zionist protestors in Germany…..
And in Israel. The gratuitous violence in this clip is astonishing.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-crack-down-anti-zionist-032104267.html
I think that the one big lesson of the last six months, apart from the depths that the Israeli government will plummet, is just how far removed the current situation is from Palestinians verses Jews.
The situation is very much Palestinians, and their supporters throughout the world, verses zionism. I have been relentlessly impressed throughout the last six months by Jewish supporters of Palestine. And how many zionists aren't even Jewish.
Enough though to have a go at a policeman doing a bloody good job of preventing a potentially serious breach of the peace and who knows what else
There isn't a an easy way to deal with this, "He had tried persuasion but the plaintiff refused to be persuaded or to accept the sensible guidance he had been given but in my judgment that was not a sufficient basis to conclude that a breach of the peace was about to occur or was imminent. There must, I consider, be a sufficiently real and present threat to the peace to justify the extreme step of depriving of his liberty a citizen who is not at the time acting unlawfully." FOULKES v. CHIEF CONSTABLE OF THE MERSEYSIDE POLICE 1998
I'm not arguing your perception of what might happen, but Breach of the Peace has been argued over for hundreds of years, it isn't clear now and appeal cases take years to get to Court, e.g. R(Hicks and others) v. Met Police (2011) was finally heard in 2017
the extreme step of depriving of his liberty a citizen who is not at the time acting unlawfully.
I haven't seen any evidence that the police officer was attempting to deprive Gideon Falter of his liberty. In fact the evidence suggests that the police officer was offering to help him go to where he claimed he wanted to go.
When legal demonstrations and organised events occur it is perfectly legal and acceptable for roads to be closed and for normal road users to be denied access - see Sunday's London marathon as a very recent example.
There is also evidence that Gideon Falter was attempting to deliberately antanogise those on the march by walking against them in the opposite direction, which would not have been lawful.
He could have legally demonstrated his opposition to the demo if he had followed the police instructions. I was on that demo and I saw the two or three dozen counter demonstrators waving Israeli flags at a point on the demo's route - they now seem to do it on every demo. The police keep them and those on the march separated, as you expect and there is never any trouble between them. In fact it surprises me how much the counter demonstrators and their Israeli flags are mostly completely ignored. On that day I didn't even hear them being jeered as the demonstrators went past, which I found quite remarkable.
Which presumably is why Gideon Falter did not want to remain with them (the organisation which he represents was behind the counter demonstration) and instead wanted to go into the crowd to antagonise them - he didn't like being ignored.
Is that victim blaming?
Yes it is, but the cops also have a responsibility for keeping the peace. You're as likely to be arrested for wearing a celtic shirt headed for a rangers bar as you are being "openly Jewish" headed for a pro Palestinian march. Falter's an idiot, but then so is the cop. It may have well been a spur of the moment comment, but try on "openly black" for size instead and see how it feels. Falter is lucky not to have been arrested. The cop will be lucky to get away with a telling off, which knowing the Met, they'll struggle on wrestling with what to do with this cop for a couple of months before eventually getting it wrong, no doubt
The word they're using to claim antisemitism is 'openly' but thats the sum of it.
The guy is clearly Agent Provocateur, and the only reason for him being there is to antagonize the crowd, hopefully be attacked verbally, or even physically, which the other in his group will film, and the goal is to try to force the government to stop the anti war protestors. Well thats how I interpret it.
Simply there to illicit trouble.
The word they’re using to claim antisemitism is ‘openly’ but thats the sum of it.
It's all it needs. It's anti Semitic, end. Yes the cop was provoked but I would've thought training is available to cops, no?
The cops should've been briefed better. Falter is there to get the video he got, or something close to it. The cop should've been much more proactive, but for whatever reason - fearful of the repercussions of arresting a Jew at a pro-Palestinian march probably but with hindsight that would've been infinitely preferable to the shambles we've got now, and instead of policing marches properly we're in an anti-Semitism row, which is equally beneficial to bell ends like Falter and CAA.
I thought the cops had intelligence, the amount of filming they do at marches these days, you'd have thought that the instant Falter showed up, he'd have been marked?
I haven’t seen any evidence that the police officer was attempting to deprive Gideon Falter of his liberty.
"Threat of arrest
The campaigner then spoke to another officer who said if he remained he would be arrested.
He was told his presence was "antagonising" a large group of people "and we can't deal with all of that if they attack you". https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104
"He again moved to the pavement, where protesters had gathered with flags and placards, leading a police officer to put a restraining arm around him." (same article)
Placing a person under lawful detention against their will and denying them of their liberty for the purposes of law enforcement. https://lawi.org.uk/arrest/
Openly Jewish.... Is this the phrase we're getting upset about?
FFS
It’s all it needs. It’s anti Semitic, end.
Care to point out the exact breach?
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Frustration definitely at someone trying to provoke trouble but anything more than that?
Gideon Falter isn't just any random pro Israeli bod, he is the chief executive of the Campaign Against Antisemitism who had actually organised a static demonstration of two or three dozen Israeli flag waving counter demonstrators specifically along the pro-Palestine march, of many thousands, to antagonise them - they could have done their Israeli flag waving anywhere else in London on that day.
However everyone was cool about it, it didn't bother the pro-Palestine demonstrators and the police were happy to let them have their little Israeli flag waving counter demonstrator.
The question which should be asked is why, as chief executive of the organisation behind the counter demonstration, wasn't Gideon Falter with them? The transcript of the conversation with the copper shows that they were nearby. The copper was obviously aware that Falter wanted to cause provocation.
As for the term openly Jewish..... I am a member of Palestine Solidarity Campaign so for very obvious reasons I was on the demo which they organised. Had I broken away and decided to mingle with the pro Israeli demo wearing a keffiyeh the police would have stopped me for being openly pro Palestinian, and clearly wanting to provoke a reaction.
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Being "openly Black?" Being "openly a woman?" Being "openly a disabled person?" How about pointing out to a woman in a hijab that she might inflame a BNP march..?
Its clumsy wording but exactly how is the officer being anti semitic? How was he displaying hostility or prejudice?
Frustration definitely at someone trying to provoke trouble but anything more than that?
Absolutely agree with this - an officer under pressure made a comment that's been twisted to appear worse than it is.
You can't not be "openly black", or "openly a woman", so that's a poor comparison. As a European looking male he chose to stress his Jewish faith to provoke a reaction and potentially cause at best a breach of the peace. A Celtic shirt in a Rangers bar is not a bad comparison.
Copper did the right thing in the heat of the moment. If we are going to get ourselves in a knot over it, I would have a lot of sympathy for any copper quitting the job with a resignation letter saying "**** this shit, you do it better if you're so bloody clever"
Being “openly Black?” Being “openly a woman?” Being “openly a disabled person?”
None of which would make you automatically racist, misogynist or ableist. So again how exactly is it antisemitic? Bearing in mind he and other members of his group were wearing kippahs and some had prayer shawls the copper was clearly identifying them as Jewish based on that rather than on any perceived stereotype.
How about pointing out to a woman in a hijab that she might inflame a BNP march..?
To use a better comparison, if that woman had turned up at a hostage vigil and acted similarly then I suspect the police might conclude it would be best if she wasnt allowed to.
The sky news footage shows a rather different picture than that portrayed by someone who wants to provoke trouble in an attempt to shut down the marches.
The policeman did a difficult job, and holding him to account for that in the moment choice of phrase is harsh I feel. Some of the responses on this thread, made without the pressure of that situation, are very depressing though.
You can’t not be “openly black”, or “openly a woman”, so that’s a poor comparison.
Several discrimination acts would disagree with your assessment. I disagree with pretty much everything folks like Falter want to achieve, but in this aspect of the treatment he received, he's right; its discriminatory. If we don't recognise that even folks that we don't agree with have rights, then forgive me, but we're ****ed.
Even JHJ gets it. The Cop just has to say to him "I suspect that you have inflammatory intent, if you don't follow my instruction, I'm going to arrest you"