MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Another day another step into Israel's growing isolation.
"Some 124 countries supported the measure, 14 opposed it"
Even the UK and Germany (Israel's second largest arms supplier) refused to oppose it. "Abstention" is now the best that Israel can hope for from some of its closest allies.
It’s like something out a SIFI novel
Walkie Talkies now. What next? Fax machines?
An interesting article here :
It Is Not Hamas That Is Collapsing, but Israel
If we continue fighting in Gaza by raiding and re-raiding the same targets, not only won't we bring Hamas to collapse, but we'll collapse ourselves. Not too long from now we will also be unable to carry out those repeated raids, because with every passing day the Israel Defense Forces grows weaker and the number of dead and wounded in action among our soldiers rises. Hamas, in contrast, has already replenished its ranks with 17- and 18-year-olds.
IDF reservists are already voting through action, with many no longer consenting to being redrafted again and again. Conscripted soldiers are exhausted and are losing professional skills for lack of training; some leave courses before completing them. Israel's economy, international relations and social cohesiveness are severely damaged by this war of attrition against both Hamas and Hezbollah, a war that will go on in the north and south so long as the Israeli military remains in Gaza.
In other words, the day will come when the IDF will no longer be able to remain in the Gaza Strip because Hamas will be in full control of it – both in the underground tunnel city that stretches hundreds of kilometers, and above ground. The number of tunnels the IDF destroyed amounts to just a few percent. The same is true for the tunnels under the Philadelphi and Netzarim corridors; Hamas is using them even now to push weapons from Sinai into the northern and southern sectors of the Gaza Strip. In this situation, the army is unable to defeat it and bring it to collapse.
Possibly related to the above:
Btw Gen Yitzhak Brik is someone who predicted the Hamas attack last year, which is more than Netanyahu apparently did, so I think it is fair to say that his opinions carry a certain amount of credibility and that he has a reasonable grip of his specialised subject.
General Brik Predicted the October 7 Attack.
https://www.uncaptured.media/p/general-brik-predicted-the-october
Brik is a well-respected former general and decorated veteran of four wars, having been awarded a Medal of Courage for his part in the 1973 Yom Kippur war. However, in recent years, he had become known as a harsh critic of the preparation of the Israeli military and the Ministry of Defense against national security threats, which viewed Hamas as having been sufficiently deterred by repeated wars, most recently Operation Guardians of the Walls in 2021.
As a Ministry of Defense ombudsman from 2008-2018, Brik spent his days observing Israeli army, navy and air force units, giving him deeper insight into the make up and condition of the armed forces than anyone else in the country. In 2017, he authored a report that warned of a variety of factors that rendered the military incapable of fighting a large-scale war.
More outrages from the Most Moral Army
Makes a change from deliberately running over bodies with digger's/bulldozers etc, they deem the Palestinians as subhuman and little more than vermin.
Worthwhile listen/watch
Apparently Netanyahu’s poll ratings have been going up since the assault on Lebanon. So it seems that stories of Israel’s demise were premature. Still. Democracy at work.
Britain's most frantically pro-israeli newspaper doesn't paint a very rosy picture of the current situation in Israel.
War-fatigued Israel faces brain drain one year on from Hamas attack
America has been dragged into wars before, the French in Indochina sucked them into Vietnam.
Ground invasion of Lebanon is Netanyahu trying to create a wider conflict and testing American resolve. Two problems the first is Hezbolla is about 40,000 strong and has substantial resources. The second is Hezbolla will be fighting in Lebanon to "protect" it. I don't doubt the IDF is capable of beating Hezbolla but it will cost them a lot of young men and women, Israel will become fully ostracised by most of the Arab world and many other countries will follow.
Israel will become fully ostracised by most of the Arab world and many other countries will follow.
They are not bothered about that because Israel has the most powerful nation (USA) and Europe to support them, hence they can do as they wish. Nobody is coming to the aid of those middle eastern people. It looks like the creation of Greater Israel has started.
Sadly very true ^
I don’t doubt the IDF is capable of beating Hezbollah
They certainly stand no chance at all of beating Hezbollah, and don't think that is even an Israeli stated aim.
Hezbollah was specifically formed to drive the Israelis out of Southern Lebanon, a goal which they successfully achieved. Today Hezbollah are incomparably more powerful than they were then.
What was definitely a stated Israeli aim though was the defeat of Hamas. And yet a year on, and despite throwing absolutely everything at Hamas, the Israeli government has not achieved its goal.
Hezbollah is many times more powerful than Hamas. Netanyahu's aim in expanding the war, in a way that on paper will be disastrous for Israel, is almost certainly to draw in US, UK, and French support. When Netanyahu provoked Iran to launch a drone and missile attack those three countries provided absolutely indispensable assistance to Israel.
No doubt Netanyahu will expect the US and its allies to step in and stop Israel collapsing as he plunges it into an even deeper crisis.
The real target I have no doubt is Iran. If the Israeli far-right can provoke and start a huge regional war involving the combined military power of Israel, the US, the UK, and France, against Iran, then they will no doubt conclude that it was worth.
And to fair they have very limited possibilities if they are to salvage the zionist project, what other ways do they have to guarantee the safety and security of a country which has been, in effect, at war its entire existence, and is now facing the greatest threats that it has ever faced?
Such a Middle East war would probably imo be the greatest war since WW2. And we all know from recent history in Afghanistan and Iraq how super powers can miscalculate what they can achieve against very much weaker foes. In the case of Iran it would be a huge and formidable foe. Which is of course why up until now the United States has not dreamt up an excuse to attack Iran.
This is 6 months old but with the situation escalating it is probably good to be reminded by the Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, how regimes such as the current far-right regime in Tel Aviv, become the most dangerous and cruel as they start to collapse and the end approaches.
The real target I have no doubt is Iran. If the Israeli far-right can provoke and start a huge regional war involving the combined military power of Israel, the US, the UK, and France, against Iran, then they will no doubt conclude that it was worth.
Iran has always been the target since they are the last hurdle to the creation of greater Israel. They have framed Iran as the axis long time ago and is waiting for the right moment to strike. Iran is in a no win situation at the moment and can only take the beating given to them, because Israel knows that if Iran retaliates, they will be perceived as the state of religious fanatics attacking other democratic state, and that will warrant the intervention from USA and Europe. Hence Israel has considered their strategy as win-win for themselves. i.e. they can push back their enemy (Hezbollah) , create a buffer zones, take a break and wait for the right moment to expand again. Throughout the entire time Iran is prevented from taking action because the USA and European have guns pointing at them (Iran).
Which is of course why up until now the United States has not dreamt up an excuse to attack Iran.
In pubic USA cannot attack Iran even if they wish to because it would create a very bad publicity. However, USA can still achieve the goal by letting Israel do the baiting and the Israel knows that, hence all the talks about asking Israel to stop is merely for public consumption as hot air. Deep down, Israel knows that they have been given the green light to expand.
how regimes such as the current far-right regime in Tel Aviv, become the most dangerous and cruel as they start to collapse and the end approaches.
No, they will not collapse. In fact they will grow stronger once Israel is truly "threaten".
I’ve been off grid a few days. Just catching up with the news on Lebanon. Israel bombing children. US justifying it using the “it’s only brown people “ clause of the Human Rights Declaration. Did I miss anything?
Good podcast on the Lebabnon situation.
https://www.ft.com/content/e34af689-70f9-4f4d-8aef-90fade4c4312
TLDL; FT correspondent seems to think it's in nobodies geopolitical interest for this to turn into a big war so it probably wont. It is in Netanyahus personal political interest tho, so it might get pushed uncomfortably far.
Some propaganda for you 😉
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1839251492655571063
Interested in STW's take on it though.
Hypocrisy aside, let's say everything in it is factually true. I have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve this. Does this allow Israel carte blanche to bomb the area flat? Or even to use precision weapons, knowing there's children etc in the area? Of course not. I also have no idea what is the right way to deal with the situation...
Edit: I also have no idea how to embed tweets...
. I have no reason whatsoever to disbelieve this.
Really ? It is an IDF propaganda video !
There is way too much nonsense to go through unpicking it all. There are some little gems though like the long-range cruise missile kept in someone's flat! Or the fact that they have the nerve to quote an UN Resolution and talk about Israeli "restraint".
Of course Hezbollah don't keep their massive arsenal of missiles in people's homes, the IDF are doing what they do best in that video - lying.
Everyone knows where Hezbollah keep their missiles - in the same place as Hamas does, deep in a network of tunnels. The major difference is that whilst Hamas dig their tunnels in sand and soil by hand and using materials smuggled into the tiny enclave, Hezbollah dig their tunnels out of solid rock deep in the mountains with sophisticated equipment.
Why not one single mention of Hezbollah's tunnels in that IDF propaganda video? I think the answer is obvious. Israel openly acknowledges that Hezbollah has hundreds of kilometres of deep tunnels built over several decades.
Here is more detailed information about Hezbollah's tunnels:
Hezbollah's tunnels and flexible command weather Israel's deadly blows
The reason the IDF has been unable to defeat Hamas despite throwing everything at them for a year is because most of Hamas's tunnels have remained intact, despite the IDF all over the surface of the tiny enclave.
Hezbollah's tunnels are far more formidable and they contain far more formidable weapons. All the recent Israeli attacks on Hezbollah will have had no effect on Hezbollah's massive missile arsenal.
Btw the claim in the IDF video that it always tries to minimise civilian casualties is betrayed not just what it has done in the last year in Gaza but also by the fact that the IDF has been operating the Dahiya Doctrine since 2006.
Ironically the Dahiya Doctrine is named after a district of Lebanon's capital city:
The doctrine is named after the Dahiya suburb of Beirut, where the Lebanese paramilitary group Hezbollah has its headquarters, which the Israeli military leveled during its assault on Lebanon in the summer of 2006 that killed nearly 1,000 civilians, about a third of them children, and caused enormous damage to the country’s civilian infrastructure, including power plants, sewage treatment plants, bridges, and port facilities.
It was formulated by then-General Gadi Eisenkot when he was Chief of Northern Command. As he explained in 2008 referring to a future war on Lebanon: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on… We will apply disproportionate force on it (village) and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases… This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.” Eisenkot went on to become chief of the general staff of the Israeli military before retiring in 2019.
https://imeu.org/article/the-dahiya-doctrine-and-israels-use-of-disproportionate-force
The Dahiya Doctrine is of course illegal under international law and a war crime.
More information here how Israel continues to apply the Dahiya Doctrine today here :
Some propaganda for you 😉
Yeah no thanks, usual guff and utter bollox masquerading as truth from the most “moral” army in the world
For an alternative view from a Gaza reconstructive surgeon
https://twitter.com/ghassanabusitt1/status/1837494405839597951?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
In the field of intensional mutilation Israel has always been a world-beater. 2018 - 20 it shot 8000 Palestinians in the lower limb with debilitating effect; it is responsible for the largest cohort of amputations in children in history in Gaza and this week over 3500 blinded and their hands mutilated in Lebanon. I think it’s when innovative spirit and bloodlust meet.
Boat tours of the Gaza coast
https://twitter.com/suppressednws/status/1837517314033328584?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
So they’re offering boat tours in Israel off the coast of Gaza to watch it get bombed and to see the place where they plan to build new settlements?
And if you wish to just how thunderfu*king ignorant and Islamophobic certain members of the US Senate can be you’d be hard pushed to better this
https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1836225546600014261?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
US,UK, France calling for a 3 week ceasefire in Lebanon.
Why do I get the feeling thats less about finding a solution, and more about 3 of the worlds biggest arms dealers looking for time to get more military supplies into israel.
If war does become a reality there, it might also be to allow the UK and US to bring in support in the form of aircraft, and arrange bases and supply lines in neighboring countries.
It also allows for evacuation.
Why do I get the feeling thats less about finding a solution, and more about 3 of the worlds biggest arms dealers looking for time to get more military supplies into israel.
Israel isn't doing anything they're not stockpiled to carry out, the 3 week ceasefire will work against Israel and they know it, if they sign up to this, then at least it'll show the US have some modicum of control over them.
Last time Israel went into Lebanon they flustered, it'll be no different this time, god knows what's going on in their minds to attempt a land based attack on Lebanon with any real purpose.
Ceasefire rejected by both sides anyway. Unsurprising and utterly depressing.
Why do I get the feeling thats less about finding a solution, and more about 3 of the worlds biggest arms dealers looking for time to get more military supplies into israel.
Why would Lebanon be any less capable of doing this?
Another $8.7bn of “military aid” to be delivered, but a ceasefire is close……..after 11 months of negotiations I’m sure it’ll happen soon
From BBC
Israel secures $8.7bn US military aid packagepublished at 18:28 British Summer Time
18:28 BST
Israel's Ministry of Defense (IMoD) has announced it has secured an $8.7bn (£6.5bn) US aid package to support its current military campaigns.
In a statement, IMoD says the package includes $3.5bn for "essential wartime procurement", which has already been transferred, and $5.2bn for air defence systems such as the Iron Dome, David's Sling and an advanced laser system.
IMoD adds that negotiating this package underscores the US government's "ironclad commitment to Israel's security", particularly in addressing "regional security threats from Iran and Iranian-backed militias by ensuring Israel's overall capabilities".
“The national pride and euphoria that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism.”........Yeshayahu Leibowitz 1903-94
Yeshayahu Leibowitz was an orthodox Jew and Zionist. He was a professor of biochemistry, organic chemistry, and neurophysiology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, as well as a prolific writer on Jewish thought and western philosophy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshayahu_Leibowitz
I think we can safely say that we are at the third stage of Yeshayahu Leibowitz's prophecy. And Netanyahu is driving Israel to the final stage.
Yeshayahu Leibowitz also called Israel's behaviour in Occupied Palestine "Judeo-Nazi".
Really ? It is an IDF propaganda video !
Yeah no thanks, usual guff and utter bollox masquerading as truth from the most “moral” army in the world
Just for a little clarity on my view... yes I know it's propaganda and what they want to show with that video, note I called it propaganda and pointed out their blatant hypocrisy. By "I have no reason to disbelieve this" I did not of course mean that I swallowed the entire video and believe Israel are acting properly etc... Rather that the main points they make about Hezbollah hiding amongst the civilian population and having the stated aim of destroying Israel are true. Just because some truths get twisted or even hidden amongst other acts does not make them less true, and I also don't like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys, seem to automatically disbelieve anything that comes from them and there is something of an unwillingness to see both sides.
Do Hezbollah keep their stuff in sophisticated underground tunnels? Yes. Do they also keep some stuff above ground in built up areas, using human shields or just not caring? Yes. Why can't both be true? Main storage below ground and quick-access stockpiles above ground near where the fighters live, for one reason.
What Israel is doing is horrific and there's no doubt about that. Up to a point though, they sometimes have no choice... I'd hate to be a commander on the ground, seeing a missile launcher or whatever in a built up area and having choice of a) stopping it, and possibly killing some nearby innocents or b) leaving it, and possibly having it killing some of your own.
Please don't read that as me excusing what they are doing. I'm not the best at making my point clear at the best of times, this was written at 3am, hopefully it makes sense overall!
And if you wish to just how thunderfu*king ignorant and Islamophobic certain members of the US Senate can be you’d be hard pushed to better this
That's insane. I really feel for the poor woman, she did well to hold it together in the face of that, especially at the end when he's leaving and clearly ignoring her. What a feeling of hopelessness she must have. At least the audience seemed to be on her side.
Do they also keep some stuff above ground in built up areas, using human shields or just not caring? Yes. Why can’t both be true? Main storage below ground and quick-access stockpiles above ground near where the fighters live, for one reason.
Both can't be true because there is no logical reason at all why Hezbollah would store a long range cruise missile in someone's flat, as claimed in the IDF propaganda video, for quick access.
Hezbollah's missiles are stored deep in the mountains where they are safe from Israeli strikes and can be quickly launched.
How quick do you think that they can launch a long ranch cruise missile from residential apartments? Especially if the lifts aren't working and they have to carry them down the stairs?
Storing missiles that can hit Israel in people's homes provides no protection whatsoever for the missiles. Everyone knows the IDF don't care how many civilians might be near a target. So there is no such thing as "human shields" as far as the IDF is concerned, only the Palestinians which they themselves use as human shields.
With regards to Gaza the IDF, the Israeli government, and the Israeli media, bang on endlessly about what they call Hamas's "terror tunnels", which sounds so sinister. Hezbollah's "terror tunnels" are far more extensive than anything in Gaza, why doesn't the IDF propaganda video mention them once when discussing Hezbollah's missile arsenal?
The answer is obvious...the whole purpose of that video was to justify the killing of innocent civilians and to prepare the world for thousands more deaths of innocent people at the hands of the IDF. The truth is inconvenient and best ignored as far as zionists are concerned.
I also don’t like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys
It's not just here I'm afraid, it is right across the globe. Throughout the world Israel is seen as a genocidal apartheid regime which murders men, women, and children, (although mostly women and children) on a daily basis.
When people commit crimes against humanity and war crimes on a daily basis it should come as no surprise to anyone that they are seen as "the bad guys" and everyone is sceptical of anything they say. The honest war criminal is not a recognised phenomena.
and I also don’t like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys, seem to automatically disbelieve anything that comes from them
Did your parents ever tell you about the boy who cried “wolf”? Maybe if the Israelis didn’t have a solid track record of lying, folks might believe them.
Israeli military says Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah killed in overnight strike on Beirut
Maybe if the Israelis didn’t have a solid track record of lying, folks might believe them.
Maybe if the travelling community didn't have a solid track record of stealing anything that isn't nailed down and some stuff that is, people wouldn't be as hostile to their appearance in the local area.
Maybe if ****stani men didn't have a solid track record of abusing underage white girls, the ongoing disquiet in areas like Rochdale and Rotherham wouldn't have happened.
Maybe if black men didn't have a solid track record of being absentee fathers, black youths wouldn't be over-represented in the penal system.
Disclaimer: I don't believe any of these things, I'm just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is. It clearly isn't crossed when we make identically phrased comment about Israelis, given DrJ's nonsense getting the thumbs up
Disclaimer: I don’t believe any of these things, I’m just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is. It clearly isn’t crossed when we make identically phrased comment about Israelis, given DrJ’s nonsense getting the thumbs up
Clue - I am referring to Israeli official spokespersons, whereas your examples refer to a racial group as a whole. But I’m sure you actually knew that and your question was simply disingenuous.
.
That’s not what you posted, nor the post you were replying to, and you know it.
My post is right there on this page. No big problem for anyone to scroll up and decide if you are telling the truth or not.
Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.
This one? And the others where you basically say the majority are supportive? Those ones?
I was going to defend your point but you undermined yourself just about straight away.
This one? And the others where you basically say the majority are supportive? Those ones?
Err no Theres a difference between saying that the Israeli electorate have repeatedly expressed their support for Netanyahu and saying that the Israelis as a racial entity are liars That would be racism. Is that what you’re accusing me of?
I was going to defend your point but you undermined yourself just about straight away.
That’s life. I’ll struggle on by, though.
Do you similarly describe Islam as “the religion of peace”? If not why not?
I’m wondering at what point anyone brought Islam into the discussion?. No. Don’t try to explain.
I’m just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is.
Israelis aren't a race and Israel is a political entity. Obviously many Israelis want to pretend that condemnation of Israel is racist, in fact Netanyahu was doing precisely that yesterday at the United Nations, but there is no reason stw mods have to go along with that nonsense.
At this point it's obvious that Israel cares not a jot about the return of the hostages who are an inconvenience to Netanyahu and his goons in this continuing genocide, I so hope they are safe and alive and rational minds will eventually come to the negotiating table.
Let’s hope Lebanon can finally free itself from Hezbollah’s malign influence.
Last I looked it’s not Hezbollah dropping bombs on Beirut apartment buildings.
At this point it’s obvious that Israel cares not a jot about the return of the hostages
I think many in Israel care a lot about the hostages, although as a psychopath Netanyahu obviously cares only about himself.
The swiftness with which they .....
Not the swiftness with which they returned the hostages eh? Netanyahu made two simple commitments in October last year, to destroy Hamas and return the hostages, he has done neither.
So why is he taking on more commitments when he hasn't fulfilled the first two which Israel and its supporters claimed would be easy to achieve?
I’m wondering at what point anyone brought Islam into the discussion?. No. Don’t try to explain.
Because it's the same language people use whenever a violent attack is carried out in its name. Language you seem quite comfortable using to describe the Israeli electorate.
So if it's fine in your case presumably you think it's fine for people to use about Islam. If not why not?
Im calling you out on this, feigning ignorance and deflecting isn't going to make me go away so you might as well answer the question.
So if it’s fine in your case presumably you think it’s fine for people to use about Islam. If not why not?
I think it’s fine for people to describe things as what they are. I have no clue what point you imagine you’re making, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to the topic.
[Mod] polite request to keep this civil. Thanks for your co-operation.
Jeezus there is nothing wrong with condemning Israelis anymore than there is condemning any other nation that behaves in an appalling manner. Apparently 85% of Russians support Putin, are we going to get all touchy about condemning Russian behaviour in Ukraine?
Netanyahu has overwhelming support among Israelis for the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians, including thousands of children, in Gaza, much of the world is disgusted by this and it is perfectly acceptable to condemn Israelis for it.
Zionists keep banging on that Israel is a democracy (obviously it isn't because no apartheid regime can ever be described as a democracy) and then suddenly and mysteriously Israelis are apparently no longer responsible for the behaviour of their government. A government whose actions in Gaza and the West Bank they overwhelmingly support.
I think many in Israel care a lot about the hostages, although as a psychopath Netanyahu obviously cares only about himself.
Well spotted, I should have made it clear I was referring to the current Israeli government and military leadership, my mistake.
Netanyahu has overwhelming support among Israelis for the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians,
Same can be said about Hamas and Hezbollah, there are no good guys in this war. None of the warring sides are achieving much other than killing civilians and reducing the chance of any stable peace.
Same can be said about Hamas and Hezbollah
Not really because a) Hezbollah do not rule Lebanon b) There has been no election in Gaza for a very long time (look up the reasons for that) and most of all c) only one party is slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians.
there are no good guys
Obviously it depends from whose/which perspective you are looking at it. For me the good guys are the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation, and the bad guys are those who are killing them and committing war crimes on a daily basis.
It's really not complicated and as simple as it looks. Although for very obvious reasons zionists will suggest that it is the opposite and very complicated indeed.
the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation
The man you quote at the top of the page, Yeshayahu Leibowitz also said that no people have a right to occupy any land
The man you quote at the top of the page, Yeshayahu Leibowitz also said that no people have a right to occupy any land
Er, the guy was a commited zionist. I posted his quote because I thought his prophecy made long ago was interesting, don't you? Here it is again.
"The national pride and euphoria that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism"
I am perfectly happy to quote zionists if I think their comments are of interest, I have recently extensively quoted a former IDF general/military ombudsman because I consider his opinions concerning the collapse of zionist state to be both interesting and credible, it doesn't however mean that I support them ideologically.
And to get back to your original point, of course the Palestinian people have a right to the land of Palestine, the people who don't are the settler-colonialists who are murdering them.
I think it’s fine for people to describe things as what they are. I have no clue what point you imagine you’re making, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to the topic.
People use "religion of peace" as a prejorative for Islam, implying it is nothing of the sort, usually when an attack is carried out in its name.
You said
Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
It's really very simple but you're feigning ignorance. And you've consistently done so over the last few pages.
It's fine to take a stand against Israel as an institution but to use the language you are walks right into the big obvious anti-semitism trap. There's no need and all it does is make the rest of us look bad. So I'm calling it out for what it is, I couldn't care less if you're on the same side of the debate, language like yours isn't welcome and shouldn't be tolerated.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
I would like to imply that during World War 2 the Japanese people as a whole were not peaceful. Does that leave me open to accusations of racism?
Pre 1945 Japanese society was deeply unpeaceful, it was extremely violent, slaughtered an unimaginable amount of people, and treated particularly non-Japanese people appallingly - as worthless in fact.
Obviously that is no longer the situation today, on the contrary it is a perfectly civilised society which complies with accepted norms, but it was certainly the situation 80 years ago. There is nothing racist about acknowledging that.
Today Israeli society is deeply unpeaceful and treats many non Israelis in the Middle East appallingly, often as being completely worthless.
It is Israeli society and its apartheid regime that is horrendous, it has absolutely nothing to do with the ethnicity of the people. In fact Israelis, unlike say the Japanese, represent a whole variety of different ethnicities.
Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.
Taking account of the mods request above, I will simply repeat - Israel is a democracy. Rule of the people, etc. How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?
For me the good guys are the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation
Unfortunately that's the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides. Israel was created nearly 80 years ago, several generations ago. The conflict will not be resolved by force on either side. Like it or not Israel is an established sovereign country.
How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?
Democracy isn't perfect and not even necessarily the will of the population, we had a mad corrupt and hate filled government for 14 years who were voted in 3 times. To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.
Hezbollah do not rule Lebanon
That doesn't help your argument, so Hezbollah are squatting in a country they have not been democratically elected to decide the fate of yet their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians. Same goes for Hamas, they knew the attacks last year would bring down hell on Gaza but did it anyway. I'm not defending Israel's actions In any way either but if you play with matches and petrol you're going to cause a fire.
Dialogue is the only way to solve this but none of the participants want that, harping back to how things were 80 years ago isn't helpful either (not that they were great then either under British rule).
To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.
But apparently the biggest group were, uncomfortable as that may be to acknowledge However, evil as the Tories were/are, they didn’t drop bombs on hospitals
their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians.
The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.
Unfortunately that’s the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides.
What civilian suffering on both sides, are you living in some sort of parallel universe? The only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.
According to Flyingox on this thread life is great for Israeli civilians. He's had a walk around and people are busy buying new cars, eating in restaurants, etc etc and generally just enjoying life. I've heard that you can go on boat trips along with Gaza coast to witness the devastation caused by the IDF.
What prolongs the violence is injustice.
You cannot have peace without justice
The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.
So you agree then that responsibility also lies with Hezbollah due to their aggressive rocket attacks into Israel. I cant think of any justification for them, they are in no way defensive, and are going to cause a response (and civilian deaths given their indiscriminate nature, they are intended to create terror).
Israel is then of course responsible for the civilian deaths it causes in Lebanon.
Defending one side versus the other in this conflict is not helpful, as I said before there are no good guys on either side.
Apparently 85% of Russians support Putin, are we going to get all touchy about condemning Russian behaviour in Ukraine?
According to state-controlled pollsters
A UK-based polling company reported that 36% of Russians supported military action in mid-Feb 2022 https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html
Ernie they were trying to sell plots of land in Gaza a few months ago weren't they? All part the the Israeli total victory rhetoric which is a fantasy and prolongs the agony of everyone caught up in this.
This is an extract from Reagans diary’s regarding the Israelis bombing of Beirut back in 1982,
Thursday, August 12, 1982
View the President's Schedule
Met with the news the Israelis delivered the most devastating bomb & artillery attack on W. Beirut lasting 14 hours. Habib cabled—desperate—has basic agreement from all parties but cant arrange details of P.L.O. withdrawal because of the barrage. King Fahd called begging me to do something. I told him I was calling P.M. Begin immediately. And I did—I was angry. I told him it had to stop or our entire future relationship was endangered. I used the word holocaust deliberately & said the symbol of his war was becoming a picture of a 7 month old baby with it’s arms blown off. He told me he had ordered the bombing stopped—I asked about the artillery fire. He claimed the P.L.O. had started that & Israeli forces had taken casualties. End of call. Twenty mins. later he called to tell me he’d ordered an end to the barrage and plead for our continued friendship. Spent rest of day meeting with Congressmen on Tax bill.
there are no good guys on either side.
So the tens of thousands of dead women and children in Gaza - were they “bad guys” as well ?
Remember the good old days when Reagan was the worst US President you could imagine ?
According to state-controlled pollsters
No not at all. According to Levada. And according to the LSE blog : "The most reputable public opinion data available in Russia are from the Levada Center, a non-governmental research organisation conducting regular surveys since 1988"
It is a separate topic altogether but you would need to be very naive to believe that Putin doesn't enjoy overwhelming public support. For whatever reasons Putin's personal approval ratings are far greater than Western leaders, and always have been.
People, and society as a whole, can overwhelmingly support violent regimes and the lies that they propagate. It happens. If you don't like the Russian example then focus on the the pre-1945 militarist-fascist Japanese regime or the German one of a similar period, both enjoyed massive public support.
There was of course nothing inherently wrong with Germans and Japanese, it was a case of far-right fascism corrupting the minds of the people through lies and profound racism, a similar situation to zionism today.
Remember the good old days when Reagan was the worst US President you could imagine ?
Well........he did help to usher in neoliberalism so there's that to hold against his administration........ 😉
So the tens of thousands of dead women and children in Gaza
Don't be obtuse, you know I didn't mean the civilians, or for that matter many of the combatants. The leadership of all the factions and the people supporting them were the bad guys I was referring to. They are the ones ordering the attacks and actively avoiding any attempts to start the long process of reconciliation and peace. Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah, all led by war mongering bad guys with no desire to bring peace to the region.
Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah, all led by war mongering bad guys with no desire to bring peace to the region.
That remains to be seen. My belief is that if Israel agreed a just peace with the Palestinians then Hamas and Hezbollah wouldn’t get volunteers to stuff envelopes, let alone pick up a gun. Worth a try - for anyone who really wants peace?
There was of course nothing inherently wrong with Germans and Japanese, it was a case of far-right fascism corrupting the minds of the people through lies and profound racism, a similar situation to zionism today.
A similar story in Rwanda. It’s not credible that the Hutu were inherently evil, and yet they were perverted by “hasbara” radio broadcasts.