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You are right only a moron would ignore who was the best candidate and would go for the person in the same club as them. It is indicative of the real reason , many suspect, people join. For personal profit rather than charitable endeavour.
They are the second biggest after the National Lottery so I assume it is fair to call them the largest givers to charity to some degree.
that info is on the website but there is no information on how to join.
[i]One thing I must say though is that if given 2 candidate for a job. 1 you know and 1 you don't , only a complete moron would ignore the personal knowledge .[/i]
When I went for my interview for my current job there were two interviewers. One of them, it transpired & totally by accident, was the brother (like as in family, not masonic brother)of a guy I knew. The other said. 'i see on your application form you list your pastimes & interests as mountain biking &... (blahdy blahdy blah), What bike do you ride? A short converstaion ensued on the good/bad points of Orange, Marin, Trek, etc.
Guess what, I got the job.
Having been a (young!) mason for best part of 8 years now im probably in a fairly good position to comment.
Firstly, the negativity on here is laughable. I heard the same theories before I joined and was intreagued to find out the truth, which is a lot less exciting than you may be lead to believe.
As already mentioned above (by perhaps one of our more open minded members) there are dodgy characters in all walks of life - members on here included im sure. Masonry is not exempt of dodgy blokes but it does do its best to exempt them, and if any member does cross the line morally or legally they are barred. I have witnessed this happen.
In a nutshell masonry does a lot more good than any perceived harm. Its hundreds of thousands of members (UK) all contribute to chrarity at every meeting. Local and national charities all benefit. Charity fund raising events are organised, and during a meeting a large proportion of time is spent discussing how much money has been raised and how much more could be raised with a little more effort.
It also does indeed serve as a gathering/social place for our OAP's - keeping them in conversation and giving them something to do - hardly anything wrong with that?
Younger members also arrange other social events - BBQ's - golf days - go-karting, you name it - all of these events raise money for charity.
Yes - freemasonry is the second largest contributor to charities in the UK.
During most meetings, ritual practice is carried out (the secretive bit), which is where the grown up Scouts/Cubs bit comes in to play. I agree, it is like scouts for men. Anything wrong with that? Men bonding? People striving to acheive a goal and earn a modicum of respect from fellow members as a result? Hardly worth lambasting.
ALL of this practice is readily available on the internet as are ALL of the passwords and handshakes. Most of the negative folk cant be bothered to find out for themselves.
Essentially, its a club for (mainly decent) men to gather, drink beer, have food cooked for them, dress smartly, make contacts within trade/business, socialise, carry out some pomp & ceremony (which the British are best at), and raise a SH!T LOAD of money for charity.
Hardly cloak & dagger.
Of course someones uncle's neighbours mate's butcher from the pub was a dodgy geezer whom apparently got away with something that couldnt be explained - that only happens to Mason's, right?
Jeesh.
And to the fella who found it sexist & racist - My lodge has asian and black members whom would disagree - as would the women in women's freemasonry.
Perhaps you happened to be invited to a lodge where (shock/horror) some members were a bit old school.
Perhaps try another lodge where the members would be different. As in most clubs/societies, the members all have different personalities, and masonic lodges are all individual.
Or you could just man up.
Why the secrecy? Why not?! It's cool to hear the tongues wagging.. (despite nothing really being secret).
Masonry is not exempt of dodgy blokes but it does do its best to exempt them
Read up on the Birmingham six case and try to convince me that nothing is secret. A point blank refusal to reveal the names of lodge members involved in the perversion of justice by members of the Birmingham force's serious crimes squad.
Perhaps you can tell us how many of the Met officers that took money from journalists are freemasons. No of course you can't because you're sworn to secrecy.
slimjim78 - Everything you have said has just confirmed my suspicions that Masons are completely and utterly, a bunch of mentalist weirdos. 😀
Why the secrecy? Why not?!
There are 2 main reasons to keep anything secret
Because it's ridiculous to the point of embarrassing you
Because it's sinister to the point of shaming you
And to the fella who found it sexist & racist - My lodge has asian and black members whom would disagree
Can Asian or black men not be sexist or racist? This is news to me!
LOL!
@ Edukator (ironic name) Birmingham 6? Yes, a total masonic cover up, the grand master told me so.
Fact is, our own government is involved in more cover ups every day than any masonic conspiracy you can spout.
@GaryGlitter - I tend to agree, mainly mentalists.
@ iDave - Did I not say that freemasonry was like Scouts for grown ups? Im happy to admit to scouts being a midly emabarassing past time - woggles and all that jazz. so willing to accept masonry in the same vein. Im sure you dont have any secrets though - best not go routing through your drawers eh
TBH, the secrecy thing is just part of the ritual stemming back from hundreds of years of tradition. Its just members being true to their values/traditions. The origins of masonry supposedly stem from a founding member giving his life rather than divulging passwords to villains whom had struck a mortal blow. Its about being true to the value of remaining true! As explained MANY time above, there are actually NO SECRETS, its all available on tinterweb and in various books.
@ ransos - Que? I was merely confirming freemasonry to not be a rascist organisation, your slant on the comment is cunning, but we all know what the original poster was refering too, do we [i]really need to go down that path?
there are actually NO SECRETS
OK then, tell us what [b]you[/b] do and say at your scouts for grown ups?
@ ransos - Que? I was merely confirming freemasonry to not be a rascist organisation, your slant on the comment is cunning, but we all know what the original poster was refering too, do we [i]really need to go down that path?
You used the existence of black and Asian freemasons as proof that the freemasons are not racist or sexist. That presumes that black and Asian people cannot be sexist or racist. Your presumption is incorrect.
Next!
I think this is possibly the biggest issue is that there is a perception rightly or wrongly that it's a closed shop in that regard, i think it's not supposed to be, but particularly in a scottish and irish perspective i think there is a bit of overlap in the membership between the Masons and the Orange Order...I think membership of one is ment to disband you from the other, i don't think that happens in practice however.I was asked to join once, but the invite was mysteriously withdrawn when they found out I was Catholic.
As I said earlier I don't really have any real problem with the concept of the Masons in that it's probably just a closed drinking shop, but the Masons are infected by the sinister goings on of the OO imo..
OK then, tell us what you do and say at your scouts for grown ups?
Why? Is just old fashioned syle rhetoric, look it up. Every word is online.
You used the existence of black and Asian freemasons as proof that the freemasons are not racist or sexist. That presumes that black and Asian people cannot be sexist or racist. Your presumption is incorrect.
Can you prove otherwise?
So on that token, you are accusing Freemasonry of taking an ''im not rascist but..'' stance? Feel free to jump to whatever conclusions you wish, its a free world. I happen to really like black Bob in my lodge.
BTW - The negativity on here smacks of ''I dont understand it so I dont like it''
i think there is a bit of overlap in the membership between the Masons and the Orange Order.
There was some footage from Donal MacIntyre, though with a name like that it is unlikely to be unbiased
You used the existence of black and Asian freemasons as proof that the freemasons are not racist or sexist. That presumes that black and Asian people cannot be sexist or racist. Your presumption is incorrect.
And I didnt use it as proof as there being no rascists in freemasonry, on the contrary, I made the poitn that there are quite a few old schoolers with Alf Garnet beliefs - there are a lot of old people after all!. My point was that these people exist in all walks of life and Masonry isnt exclusive to them. Any pub on a friday night is usually as bad.
My other point was that there any many non-rascists in masonry, as in ALL OTHER walks of life.
Read what you want to read though.
BTW - The negativity on here smacks of ''I dont understand it so I dont like it''
the whole point is that we can't 'understand it' as it's a secret group - the info online hasn't been released by the Masons, almost like they're prefer us not to know
personally i never said i didn't like the masons, though they seem to attract people who i would have little in common with
BTW - The negativity on here smacks of ''I dont understand it so I dont like it''
Not really, there's not a lot to understand is there. Pretty much like any other Christian group aren't they?
BTW - The negativity on here smacks of ''I dont understand it so I dont like it''
you cannot be a secret organisation then complain that we dont understand you ... her ei know open up like actually tell me what the rituals are or the handshake rather than say Googlle it. Even on here, when defending it behind a nom de plume, you cannot actually tell us can you.
That is why we appear to not "understand" ;you are secretive
Oooh yes, tell us the signs for recognising masons
errr...
1) No women (outside their own little enclave)
2) Lots and Lots of problems in the past
3) P2 in Italy. Google it.
4) In my area (medicine) there was a masonic definite power base and circle of influence in a hospital where I trained.
5) The defensive tone of some of the members of the craft who have crawled out on this thread has to be seen to be believed.
6) And the people who are members might be just as generous to charity if they were members of another organisation. The Masons don't get to claim all the credit for that.
Nothing really against them - it just seems a bit... infantile and pathetic. A bunch of blokes who feel the need to be take themselves too seriously.
slimjim78 - I went to one meeting only, all those present were white middle class men, and the telling of racist and sexist jokes seemed to be the rule rather than the exception. I found it offensive, I'm sure there are meetings where this does no happen, I was not generalising to the whole organisation.
There is much more to sexismsm than 'Women members'
and much more to racism than 'Black & Asian members'
the fact that people think that this is all there is to it worries me!
[url= http://doorknockersdirect.co.uk/products/brass-door-knockers/masonic-brass-door-knocker/ ]The masons will always have their knockers[/url]
The Masons don't get to claim all the credit for that.
No, but the masonic charities get to claim half the contributions
you cannot be a secret organisation then complain that we dont understand you ... her ei know open up like actually tell me what the rituals are or the handshake rather than say Googlle it. Even on here, when defending it behind a nom de plume, you cannot actually tell us can you.
As I already mentioned (do people actually read what is written?) Any 'secrecy' stems from people remaining true to their values and commitments. We have sworn a cremonial oath not to divulge, its purely ceremonial but would feel wrong to break.
Do you see masons going crazy over the secrets being splashed all over the internet and in books? no. it doesnt really matter.
Pretty much like any other Christian group aren't they?
Not really, being christian isnt a pre-requisite, just belief in a supreme being. Christianity is never mentioned, hence Asian (hindu/sikh) members from and members of other faiths.
1) No women (outside their own little enclave)
2) Lots and Lots of problems in the past
3) P2 in Italy. Google it.
4) In my area (medicine) there was a masonic definite power base and circle of influence in a hospital where I trained.
5) The defensive tone of some of the members of the craft who have crawled out on this thread has to be seen to be believed.
6) And the people who are members might be just as generous to charity if they were members of another organisation. The Masons don't get to claim all the credit for that.
1)Ever been to a pub with a men only room? Its old fashioned and its a bit wrong, but somehow it feels good. Masonry certainly cant be considered 'modern', I agree. They are making steps though.
2) lot & lots of problems? cant be bothered to ask for specifics to this vague point, but every orgnanisation has its dark problems - as does every race/government etc.
3) Italy? totally different organisation. Freemasonry is world wide but only connected by name in most cases. What is practiced/governed in one country is totally & utterly different in another. Its like saying a naughty italian school boy must be involved in the mafia.
4) So? influences and advantages are taken in all walks of life and in every situation, if you can use your club/mate/interests as an advantage then youd be a fool not too. Even if what you say [i]is [/i]true.
5)again - tarring with the same brush. There are knob 'eds in every organisation, you must have encountered some 'ethusiastic' members.
6) they would be just as generous, or at least inclined to be. But masonry binds them, gives them a common interest and probably raises the prospective outcome.
Supertramp - which province was that per chance?
Ive seen all kinds of 'classes' in my lodge and others ive visited, shame yours was sullied.
Ive heard tongue in cheek jokes, and ive never witnessed racism.
Have heard plenty of wife whingingness though.
Just read a load of info about the rituals and 'scouts for grownups' is a bit wide of the mark.
I'd say if you embrace that kind of ritual for whatever reason you're a bit of a sadsack in good need of a leg up the ladder of life.
So? influences and advantages are taken in all walks of life and in every situation, if you can use your club/mate/interests as an advantage then youd be [s]a fool[/s]ethical and honourable not too. Even if what you say is true.
Can you prove otherwise?
So on that token, you are accusing Freemasonry of taking an ''im not rascist but..'' stance? Feel free to jump to whatever conclusions you wish, its a free world. I happen to really like black Bob in my lodge.
So you'd like me to prove a negative? Good one.
it just seems a bit... infantile and pathetic. A bunch of blokes who feel the need to be take themselves too seriously
Sounds very similar to most of the 'regulars' here then 😆
It's why we all want to know how to join!
There is quite an interesting discussion to be had I feel in terms of indigenous initiatory experiences, which are designed to pass the initiate first through a "liminal" state of consciousness, often terrifying, in order to enable them to reach a greatly expanded state of consciousness and thus world view, and the initiations of both secret and not-so secret groups such as the Freemasons, Skulls and Bones, and army, university and other societies. I guess you could also throw in the initiations of occult magical groups as well, which are maybe a third form of initiation.
I see these initiations as different. In some instances the initiation is more ritual, in order to instil in the initiate a sense of brotherhood, secrecy and elitism. In other instances, especially the indigenous, the experience takes one into such different realms of consciousness and being, that there is simply no point in trying to use language which is such an inadequate form of communication in trying to articulate that which is perhaps luminous, or far beyond words, duality, and time and space.
There are many degrees of Freemasonary, and I am sure, secret groups within it too. Who knows ay?
But yeah, I guess I thought it would be good to point out the many different forms of initiation, from drunken student tomfoolery, to ritual, to the sacred.
I guess therefore some things are secret for different reasons, i) as people would not approve if these secrets were known, ii) because these secrets are "noble" and should not be made known to non-initiates who may not know how to handle the secrets, and iii) because there is no point in a non-initiate "knowing" as they simply can't know in the same way that the initiate can.
In any secret society, I assume that there are secrets within, and of course there are many degrees of Freemasonary, and I am sure, secret groups within Freemasonary. Who knows ay?
Fair point I guess, I suppose it's like a few years ago when only a few of us were using the other Internet. These things can only stay a secret for so long, before they become mainstream.
I'd say if you embrace that kind of ritual for whatever reason you're a bit of a sadsack in good need of a leg up the ladder of life.
Thanks iDave.
But you know next to nothing really. If you have an interest in history, in pomp and ceremony, amongst many other things, then youd find masonry remotely interesting. Without the ceremony there would be very little to distinguish it from a social club. Its great for improving your memory skills too.
But what do I know, im just a sad sack who sits on a biking forum all day slating other people.
So you'd like me to prove a negative? Good one.
Not really Ransos, id rather you jogged on.
I agree CharlieMungus, I cringed whilst writing it originally - but none of us are whiter than white. I would bet a million dollars youve used/would use a similar situation to your advantage.So? influences and advantages are taken in all walks of life and in every situation, if you can use your club/mate/interests as an advantage then youd be a foolethical and honourable not too. Even if what you say is true.
I can see why its frowned upon as a society(honestly), but IMHO theree is nothing sinister or nothing wierder than a men's club that gives folks something to do, and has a positive outcome.
In all honesty I stopped actively taking part about 3 years ago as I felt id gone as far as I was interested in. Im still a country member and could enter again if I ever wanted to but I dont really think its for me in the long run. Why? Apart from feelign a teeny tiny bit daft, I just dont like the general public enough. Some of you are helping afirm this.
I just thought some of you may be keen on an insiders point of view. Nay, you just prefer to critcise. Human nature in action (or just Britishness?).
I have re-edited my post as I do not think it too clear. I feel in a gentle way that it is slightly ironic to be told by a member of a secret society that they in fact know every secret. How do you know? It is a secret society and therefore every single member knows every secret? 🙂
I agree CharlieMungus, I cringed whilst writing it originally - but none of us are whiter than white. I would bet a million dollars youve used/would use a similar situation to your advantage.
you owe me a million dollars
I just thought some of you may be keen on an insiders point of view.
You haven't really told us anything. Other than that you refer to a chap in your lodge by his skin colour.
Another point which interests me is how many Masons assume that any scepticism or contempt one has for their beliefs (and a willingness to accept a deity of some sort is a core belief) must be based on jealousy and disinformation...
Simonralli2 - I think you hit a really good point, the feeling of belonging to a brotherhood is what drives most members onwards and upwards within thier lodge.
The secrecy thing is like a badge of honour I guess (althogh most members I know treat the secrecy with a bit of tongue and cheek).
I tell you something for nothing though, ive not struggled to find a plumber/electrician/chippy/architect/builder in the last few years.
Job's a goodun.
you owe me a million dollars
Actually Slimjim, given that you are regular forum [s]user[/s] seller, I'll let you off.
You haven't really told us anything. Other than that you refer to a chap in your lodge by his skin colour
Oh boy, you really missed my sarcasm on that one then.
Trust me, I wouldnt give you any names, for fear of having my throat cut and tongue cast into the sea.
Another point which interests me is how many Masons assume that any scepticism or contempt one has for their beliefs (and a willingness to accept a deity of some sort is a core belief) must be based on jealousy and disinformation...
a) I dont have 'beliefs' other than honouring what was asked of me during iniation. What beliefs are you refering to? I never actually admitted to a belief in a deity either..
b) I never mentioned jealousy once, are you jealous? but there is a vast amount of disinformation being thrown around
you owe me a million dollarsActually Slimjim, given that you are regular forum user seller, I'll let you off.
whats your point? that im new to this forum? Do you usually treat new members with such contempt?
How should I become initiated into this club? I wish to be just like you brethren.
You haven't really told us anything. Other than that you refer to a chap in your lodge by his skin colour.
I was thinking about this again, beacuse in fact, ive pretty much told you everything regarding the society.
There really is not much more I can tell you (not even secrets). I could mention King Solomans temple and its pillars.
There, better?
sexist
What's wrong with being sexy?
whats your point? that im new to this forum? Do you usually treat new members with such contempt?
How should I become initiated into this club? I wish to be just like you brethren
It were a joke, see like I let you off cos you're a forumite as well, when you were making the point about folks with things in common helping out and i was trying to say that I wouldn't have any of it. But then i went and did it straight away, see? Funny now isn't it?
Ultimately the problem is in the name. Nowadays, people are so wary of so many marketing scams and 'winning' lotteries and all that kind of stuff, that anything with free in the title immediately arouses suspicion.