[Closed] France and the Burka Ban-should they ban it?

A simple law preventing you from covering your face/head unless there's a good reason would do the trick (and being oppressed isn't one).

Personally i think it is offensive to civil liberties.

France however, is a legally secular Nation, the UK is not. We have a State-sanctioned Church(es) and a Monarch who is head of that Church. We could not legally enforce a ban on religious symbology without disestablishing the Church etc.

+1 for 5thElefant

And ban those frigging stupid hoddies which also have a face part in the style of a WW2 gas mask.

5thElefant +2

I'm from the old school that says "when in Rome, do as ....." so I think the French have the perfect right to put a stop to the Burka and I would like to see the same thing here.

If I were French, I would agree with the ban
I'm not so I don't really care what they do

Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

They do things differently in France....

They don't for instance have the notion of state measured ethnicity, one is French, and that's the end of the matter, they don't for instance label each other "Afro-British" for example as we do, you're just French. This has both obvious advantages and obvious disadvantages.

The burqua ban has to be seen in this context, it's simply "not French" I don't think it's necessarily right or wrong, although I'm uncomfortable with it being banned personally. I don't think such a law would or could be passed in this country for instance.

I'd not be unduly concerned if it were implemented here

its bollox in my opinion

while im not a fan of the burkha (hate all religions) the government has no right to tell me what clothes i can or cant wear

its bollox in my opinion

while im not a fan of the burkha (hate all religions) the government has no right to tell me what clothes i can or cant wear

5thElefant - Member

Understood uplink but it could apply here one day and implications from it could be positive or negative in the long term.

Can't see it.

Take off your burka?

I could see it happening here if done democratically with votes but probably would be as a backlash to Islam fear. Also other religions would be next like turbans and wearing crosses in school...

Maybe you're right.

I do like the idea of French or non French. But would people accept it here?

Ban on Hoodies? great idea!

Would you be particularly bothered if you weren't allowed to wear a mask and hood in public?

As a recreational ninja such an imposition would seriously affect my ability to ninge.

I'm with Plant.

Would you be particularly bothered if you weren't allowed to wear a mask and hood in public?

you ever been to a fetish club?

The religious requirement, as I understand it (I could check with some mates or colleagues I guess), is to dress modestly. If you look through the muslim world that's interpreted very differently - it's a cultural issue (as is female circumcision, for example, which is also illegal in the UK).

Equally, you wouldn't expect to go to a muslim country walking around inappropriately dressed..tho' the irony there is that a western woman in *some* countries is far more likely to be hassled...so much for western decadence...

you ever been to a fetish club?

I,m with muddydwarf.

France has a secular constitution and this gives a rather different complexion on these sorts of things. In the UK in would be much harder to do.

You have to remember that the complete covering of the face is no means accepted in Islam as needed - covering your hair, arms and legs is enough to satisfy the needs of the religion according to most Islamic scholars. No need to cover the face. It makes me uneasy and could be a cover for racism but given the constitutionally secular nature of France then its easier to do than in the UK.

How on earth does it make you uneasy?

I've never understood how bleeding hearts don't make a fuss about burkhas. If the BNP insisted their women should wear masks in public the bleeding hearts would go apeshit over it.

And... where are the bloody feminists? They should be making a real fuss.

Liberal racism - "they don't know any better"?

Am I right in thinking that the Burka isn't even an item of religious dress, more to do with some acient muslim guy hiding his wives from peeping toms by a curtain and the fashion catching on.
If so then isn't it only as sensitive as a hoodie or black balaclava.

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[i]And... where are the bloody feminists?[/i]

Some Islamic feminists have co-opted the buqua.

Freedom of expression though isn't it?

'IF' we were ever to bring in a law like that on the dubious grounds of combatting terrorism, it would then inevitably lead to other acts being created on similarly dubious grounds - don't like hooded sweatshirts so ban them etc.
What next, long hair banned for blokes?
Trousers banned for women?

Bad law inevitably breeds more bad law.

I don't like the burkha, but as long as people choose to wear it then that's their affair.

mtbfix - Member

How on earth does it make you uneasy?

Uneasy because I wonder if the intent is racist or that it is a start of an attack on religious freedoms.

Its one of those areas where its easy to see with "commonsense" what he answer should be - but actually trying to define this and write it down in such a ay that it couldn't be used as an instrument of oppression - and will it lead to even more restricted lives for these women as they might then be forbidden from leaving the house at all.

5th - weirdly enough many women want to wear them - perhaps brainwashed into it. I believe you are 100% right that it is an instrument of oppression but as above I find that the idea of the state saying what you can and cannot wear makes me uneasy.

No easy answer and I have no firm opinion.

oldgit - Member

Am I right in thinking that the Burka isn't even an item of religious dress, more to do with some acient muslim guy hiding his wives from peeping toms by a curtain and the fashion catching on.
If so then isn't it only as sensitive as a hoodie or black balaclava.

Pretty much. As I put above most Islamic scholars would consider keeping hair, arms and legs covered would be enough.

There was an interesting case in the UK a year or two about this. a girl at school wanted to wear not a burka but a long flowing robe that is worn by some islamic women. The school refused to let her and as a part of the subsequent court case the local Imam stated that the clothes that were acceptable to the school were acceptable to Islam as well

The Hanibal hoodie anyone?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/birmingham/content/articles/2007/10/01/hoodie_clothing_feature.shtml

surely lycra is the next thing to ban offensive if you ask me.

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"where are the feminists ??"

Over here !

In my humble opinion the wearing of the Burka is totally offensive and not the woman's choice at all in any realistic way, and only a few faltering steps away female circumcision.

Although it said on Radio 4 (so it must be true, I'll check the Guardian) that only about 2000 women wear it so a ban is a bit heavy handed and strikes me as bullying women who are already extremely vulnerable. How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ??

[i]How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ?? [/i]

They would argue that they are liberating women from male oppression.

How about they just throw the husbands/fathers etc in jail until they give the women their freedom ?

who'd make the tea for the kids?

It shouldn't be banned. Nor should mini-skirts or other such delights 🙂

Hels - there was a very interesting piece in the Guardian - a British (non practising) muslim went to one of the residential religious schools in ****stan. Teh pressure on her to wear a burka came from the other women there.

Perhaps its brainwashing / indoctrination but in some cases it clearly is the woman's choice to wear it.

Perhaps its brainwashing / indoctrination but in some cases it clearly is the woman's choice to wear it.

So in order to protect women and ensure that they are free to choose what they should wear, certain items of clothing should be banned?

I'm surely not alone in detecting a slight trace of irony here.

TJ I read that piece in the Guardian and interpreted it very differently. IIRC In the end she wore it to fit in, much like the other women I would imagine. It was all very sad.

It is a bit like the prostitution argument n'est-ce pas ?

The Police arrest the women not the men.

I think I would have to say that I am anti-burka wearing but believe that banning it won't solve the problems.

keep it just for the ugly birds ?

I have to wear a T-shirt and shorts to jog through town though I'd rather not when it's 40°C (I'm male). So the woman's argument about having the right to wear what she wants doesn't hold up as nobody in France has the right to dress as they wish at present. If there's a limit to how much I can undress and jog through town why shouldn't there be a limit as to how much I can cover up? It could be problematic on the pistes on cold days though.

Je suis fier d'être citoyen d'une république laïque et je soutiens le projet de loi.

i'd happily ban it.

couldn't give a flying **** what 'minorities' think about it. put it to the popular vote - much like Switzerland did re. the minarets.

the GF got shouted at in Iran for not covering enough of her hair. she had to sit in a different section of the bus when travelling with her dad. this was 2 years ago.

it's also the ****ing stench of sweaty flesh that eminates from these burka wearing folks on a hot day. when you're stuck behind one of them (think that's a slightly impersonal.....? i find it rather impersonal when someone hides their face from me) it makes you gag.

besides, if you were to walk through central london, your face covered with a buff, do you think the old bill wouldn't take any notice?
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time i've posted this recently.... mr connelly.[/url]

without reading the thread I will counter the it is oppressive to women post that must have gone up by now.
Oddly we never seem to say this when we see pictures of half naked women walking the streets of Newcastle in nowt but a short skirt and skimpy top - apparently that is their right but the second they cover up a man has made them do it.....wonder why we object to one and not the other.
my basic point is anyone can wear whatever they want I dont see clothes or the lack there of personally offensive
How many of you on here know anyone who wears a Burkha Obviously dont let this stop you speaking on their behalf. , I have conversed with some and have asked them why they do this?
I work in a multi cultural area [33% Asian] iirc and interview and work with many wearers of the Burkha. I love the juxtaposition of seeing someone dressed like that whilst talking on their Iphone to their mates about Big brother. I also like seeing them walking down the street in Burkha with tEvery she ubber bling handbag always maked me chuckle.Not one single person I have conversed with about this views this as anything other than a personal choice and as a sign of their faith. The women seem to have free choice of this whether married or single [though not necessarily about covering the hair]. I have seen people in family units with mother wearing head scarf one child uncovered one in Burkha.
You do realise that under the Burkha they are dressed like other people, jeans , dresses whatever and in their own homes they dont do this.
There may a be a point re security but why does anyone get het up about what someone else wears?
Liberal freedom of choice is my option. Let em wear what they want
I have traveelled in Middle east and depending on exactly where you are no you dont necessarily have to dress as they do and cover up...has that argument come up yet we couldn't wear x in their country?

Alpin isnt smoking , being British and riding a bike a minority thing in Germany lets hope they respect your choices abit more eh?
I also dislkie religion but I dont see why we should go ape about their clothes Do you people get just as upset about Nuns?

Don't see why they should not be banned. Went to Turkey for hols last year - a Muslim country - they're banned there, have been for years.

half naked women walking the streets of Newcastle in nowt but a short skirt and skimpy top - apparently that is their right but the second they cover up a man has made them do it.....

no no, you're right....

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I wouldn't mind everyone being equal, if that equality could actually be realised.

Burkas? Fine, but could we go to a predominately Muslim country and wear mini-skirts?

Mosques? Fine, but could we go to a Muslim country and build a Church?

On the subject of Mosques - could we get planning permission from Sheffield City Council for an eyesore such as the monstrosity that adorns the streets of Heeley Bridge?

Whilst we're talking about Heeley Bridge - there seem to be dozens of taxi's and people carriers illegally parked unquestioned on a Saturday afternoon at prayer time, yet if I park half a wheel at the football ground around the corner in the wrong place I get a ticket?

Everyone's welcome in my eyes, but equality shouldn't mean bending over backwards to accomodate.

Apologies if I'm way off the mark, just an opinion.

Alpin isnt smoking , being British and riding a bike a minority thing in Germany lets hope they respect your choices abit more eh?

i know of more people here that smoke ciggies than i did in the UK. i know more people in the UK that smoke weed then here in germany, myself included.

every ****er has at least one bike here and i know of lots of people who don't have a car, myself included (including my 5 other housemates). in the UK almost everyone has a car and hardly anyone has, let alone uses a bike.

i am one of only a handful of brits here in town and most of them are scotch.

my choices are accepted as they aren't ****ing choices that make people uneasy when talking to me and don't close me off from the rest of society.

Turkey is a secular country.

Nuns don't cover their faces Junkyard so I don't get upset. I don't get upset about seeing women in burkas, I feel offended and insulted that the woman won't let me see her face and the messages her expressions convey.

I have to vote for a ban on health & safety.

😈

Interestingly, the burka is banned in Tunisia - a Muslim country.

"In my humble opinion the wearing of the Burka is totally offensive and not the woman's choice at all in any realistic way,"

Sometimes it is, is the problem. If it genuinely never was, then I'd be for banning it but there are many women who choose the burka. I have no idea why but I'd defend their right to choose to do it, just as I'd defend their right to choose not to.

[i]So in order to protect women and ensure that they are free to choose what they should wear, certain items of clothing should be banned?

I'm surely not alone in detecting a slight trace of irony here.
[/i]

"Slight" is putting it mildly!

Ban the burka...? No way! I'd rather not see their mustachioed mugs anyway.

Ban the 'hoody'...? wash your mouth out, it's saved me from the cold and rain, slush, sludge, wind many a time after a long ride in a isolated exposed car-park!

There is no real reason to wear it.
Only if you want to escape the country !!

TheArtistFormerlyKnownAsSTR - Member

I wouldn't mind everyone being equal, if that equality could actually be realised.

Burkas? Fine, but could we go to a predominately Muslim country and wear mini-skirts?

Mosques? Fine, but could we go to a Muslim country and build a Church?

On the subject of Mosques - could we get planning permission from Sheffield City Council for an eyesore such as the monstrosity that adorns the streets of Heeley Bridge?

Whilst we're talking about Heeley Bridge - there seem to be dozens of taxi's and people carriers illegally parked unquestioned on a Saturday afternoon at prayer time, yet if I park half a wheel at the football ground around the corner in the wrong place I get a ticket?

Everyone's welcome in my eyes, but equality shouldn't mean bending over backwards to accomodate.

Apologies if I'm way off the mark, just an opinion.

Not off the mark, pretty much my view too. There was an interesting debate on the radio yesterday where a medical bod said that the incidence of rickets was quite common amongst women who do the full cover up thing. The burka and niqaab have no basis in religion whatsoever. If you bother to look at the Koran it states modesty for women *[b]and[/b]* men. The interpretation is cultural.

There was an interesting debate on the radio yesterday where a medical bod said that the incidence of rickets was quite common amongst women who do the full cover up thing.

a lack of viatmin D is also a problem (and a cause of rickets in later life because the breast feeding mother didn't get enough of it (viatim D) during the birth and whilst breast feeding)

slighty unrelated, but....

i remember something similar where a MP stood up in parliment to talk about the higher than average number of incidents in their constituency where children were born with defects related to inbreeding. the cause was the number of arranged marriages amongst family members - marrying cousins or uncles and so on.

Alpin nice link of piccy made me chuckle - so you approve of Burkhas for fat mingers?

Burkas? Fine, but could we go to a predominately Muslim country and wear mini-skirts?

Mosques? Fine, but could we go to a Muslim country and build a Church?

depends on the country you could in Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia and I assume others. Out of interest I never knew cross dressing meant that much to you .. I am sure you have the legs for it 😉
You think there are no churches in Muslim countries- there are if there are Christians - Mohammed from Koran iirc says they have to show respect to all followers of the book iirc - forget the exact quote but they respect Christians again Churches in Egypt, Turkey 600 + in Iran etc.
So the answer would be yes to both your questions depending on the Muslim country.

If you go to a meal at a veggies house and dont eat meat do they have to eat meat at yours?. You dont smoke in a non smokers house do they have to smoke in yours? Essentially we dont have rules about what women wear - the wearing of the Burkha or the bikini does not violate liberalism as the clothes are their choice. If western liberal tolerance is a better way of life then perhaps we sould practcie it when people excercise choices we would not want to excercise or agree with or we look like hypoctits?

I am sure Muslim women are touched that predominately middle ages white men are telling them what they can and cannot wear in an attempt to free them from the oppression of men ...makes a lot of sense that does.

based on the rationale that the burka is to prevent men having impure thoughts about women, shouldn't muslim men wear one to stop the women have impure thoughts?

fackit - you're either a poor troll or a great ****tard

Alpin nice link of piccy made me chuckle - so you approve of Burkhas for fat mingers?

perhaps capital punishment would be more appropriate.

That is a tough one. The french government is clearly a rascist one. Not a shadow of a doubt about that (after all le grand nicola has been elected stealing the voices from the far right wing). However I am not sure how many women freely choose to wear a burka, may they be brain washed, bullyed or forced into it. Then burka is already banned in school and administration. I can't see if banning the burka will help or not. Since the last election it's getting even harder to be a muslim or to have a darker shade of skin in France. At the moment I am not for the ban. The actual law works just fine (no religious sign in school/administrations).

'tribal chief' yer just a pathetic ****

So what happened to choice?

If a woman wants to wear a burka then that's fine by me. I wouldn't condemn a nun for wearing a headscarf, nor would I judge a bloke in a skullcap.

The reasons why a woman might elect to wear a burka however is a different issue. Some women do it as an expression of faith, others do so because their or their family background demands it.

How does one tell the difference between someone wearing a burka willingly, or whether they're doing so under intimidation?

How does one tell the difference between someone wearing a burka willingly, or whether they're doing so under intimidation

[i]So what happened to choice?

If a woman wants to wear a burka then that's fine by me. I wouldn't condemn a nun for wearing a headscarf, nor would I judge a bloke in a skullcap.[/i]

+1. The only exception to this should be a grown man wearing a football shirt, if they're not actually playing a game.

AndyP, +1.

You've obviously been to Newcastle Airport during holiday season!

So in order to protect women and ensure that they are free to choose what they should wear, certain items of clothing should be banned?

I'm surely not alone in detecting a slight trace of irony here.

+1

Ban them they are provocative and they know it, it always amuses me how you see women with Islamic face veils shopping in M&S as I have never seen Burka for sale in there and as its a Jewish owned store I thought muslims are banned from shopping there or against its against islam.

I am with TJ on this one.
Junkyard's argument is pretty good, but there IS pressure put on women to wear one.If they are banned,then that is gone.I don't mind Burka wearing as a nod to somebodies culture, I do mind it when it is used to judge a woman's morality by her peers...Or escape the clutches of the law having just attempted to blow up loads of innocent people.The point made about France being secular is correct, but it is more about forcing people to dress like a French woman (1950's dress,string of onions)by removing a symbol of religious identity.

[i]The french government is clearly a rascist one. Not a shadow of a doubt about that (after all le grand nicola has been elected stealing the voices from the far right wing)[/i]

Nicola Sarkozy came to power because bourgeoise Ségolène Royal didn't pay her ISF and lost credibility with her socialist supporters, and more importantly with those UDF voters that might otherwise have voted for her in the second round. The communist vote collapsed with the fall of the wall so there was only 4% to pick up there. For most people it was a case of damage limitation and choosing the candidate least likely to damage an already fragile economy with an ever more tentacular state strangling the private sector and tax payer. For the record I voted for Sarkozy and have no regrets.

Accusations of racism will backfire on the accusers. We are intelligent enough to know the difference between describing behaviour/dress as socially unacceptable and racisme. A person in a burkka could be anyone, male, female, outlaw... .

I wouldn't ban them, will cause more problems than it is worth, and then those poor cows that have to wear them will be banned from leaving their husband/fathers house. Not progress...

Think about the Taxi films. Whether the baddies are Ninjas or Father Christmasses they have their faces covered. You can't go into a French supermarket or bank with motorcycle helmet on (they even take my bike helmet in Leclerc). Covering your face says "up to no good" to many including me.

In Germany covering your face in demonstrations has be illegal since 1985.