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Such gracious losers 😯
Source?
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However, the governing body does not need a protest from Ferrari to investigate further. In fact, its own rules appear to oblige it to do so.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638
Video at the top of that page supposedly shows him overtaking on yellows. If your not allowed to overtake until you've passed a green light there may be something in it.
Vettel passed a Torro Rosso under yellows so will retrospectively be given a post race 20sec penalty meaning Alonso would win title by 1pt, caught on his on board camera footage. Will be bad news for F1 if Vettel does have title taken away... Does this also mean Red Bull could retrospectively withdraw Webber to allow Vettel to gain the place back? Either way it's going to get farcical if thats how Ferrari want to play it... 🙁
Definitely overtook before the green light, judging by that clip.
Jasper Fforde writes of an alternative Swindon, in which croquet is the mass spectator sport. Sort of full contact sport with garden ornaments.
Lawyers are an integral part of the team, with Substitute Lawyers on the bench as well.
That's meant to be an alternative, comical universe. Not the real world.
Yet another reason to see F1 as more of a travelling circus cum farce than a sport.
That's a new piece of footage, the one people were arguing over was the overtake on kobayashi, which was also crystal clear from the in car video.
So potentially 2 penalties
But rules are rules and Vettel knows what they are.
Surely, after a title has been won, you can't take it away based on evidence of cheating that only comes to light after the event?
Oh - I forgot. This is a cycling forum. 🙄
Anyone with even a passing interest in motorsport knows about yellow flags
Should this not have been something that was dealt with at the time?
Sorry, good as Alonso is, with him as lead driver and track record of dodgy situations, its completely understandable.
Ungracious loosers indeed.
Alonso when driving for Ron denis was found in posession of data belonging to Ferrari, then tried to bribe Ron Dennis. This cost McLaren £100m plus penalties.
Alonso's employer Renault was exposed as having deliberately 'fixed' the result of the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, by instructing Nelsinho Piquet to crash out to necessitate a safety car period which played into his favour. This also forced Massa who was leading the championship into the pits where refulling mysteriously went badly and this cost him the championship.
Alsonso, great driver he may be, shame the same excellence doesn't show in the strategy behind the scenes. Spoiled brat.
Yet another reason to see F1 as more of a travelling circus cum farce than a sport.
Because they don't allow rules to be broken and titles given to the wrong person?
Should this not have been something that was dealt with at the time?
No, I believe righting a wrong can take years.
Surely, after a title has been won, you can't take it away based on evidence of cheating that only comes to light after the event?Oh - I forgot. This is a cycling forum.
LOL
Lance lost his titles for breaking the rules....
...travelling circus cum farce...
I think I've got that DVD.
Does the green light not mean it is OK to start overtaking again, rather than "you can't overtake until you have passed this particular light"? Surely it would have to be the same time for everyone, regardless of where you are on the track.
Yeah 😀
Talk about bitter taste in the mouth if that goes ahead. One team robbed (?) by the rules in favour of one who bent them beyond what should (but isnt) deemed acceptable.
Alonso - would be a tainted champion, which given his ability, is a sad thing to say.
No, the yellow flag applies to specific sections of track
[quote=teamhurtmore ]
Alonso - would be a tainted champion, which given his ability, is a sad thing to say.
Better not to have a champion at all then?
The green light is effectively an invisible line across the track and you are not allowed to start overtaking until you have passed over this line.
There can be several yellow and green flag sections of track at any one time. It's a drivers job to know where these are and act accordingly. They even have lights on the steering wheel that are activated in these zones so that they don't necessarily have to be looking at the boards as they pass them.
From the FIA:
b) Yellow flag:This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.
Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshals’ post immediately preceding the hazard.
In some cases however the Clerk of the Course may order them to be shown at more than one marshals’ post preceding an incident.
[b] Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident.[/b]
Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an incident of which the driver should be made aware.
This also applies to lights when substituted for flags.
You can see from this gif a green flag was being waved prior to the overtake.
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Well said Jamesy. Vettel should have known th crack. Still cant believe his car kept going after turn 4 like!
You can see from this gif a green flag was being waved prior to the overtake.
Where?
On the left hand side
In the little tent to the left. Case closed.
If its that clear cut, then why all the fuss?
Oh. 😐
Desperation?
The lights are yellow and the yellow warning light is on his steering wheel, they supercede the waved flags
Maybe my colour perception is worse than yours but personally I have no idea whatsoever what colour that flag is.
[quote=TheFunkyMonkey ]The lights are yellow and the yellow warning light is on his steering wheel, they supercede the waved flags
No they don't.
Alonso has been the best driver this year and has flattered the Ferrari at times. Vettel has got lucky a few times and has clearly had the best package/team. Maybe his luck just ran out.
Flags supersede lights but as lemonysam says the colour of the flag is debatable.
Watch from 10 minutes on to see the incident.
IIRC the only flags that should be waved are yellows (be prepared to slow or even stop) and the chequered flag (signalling the end of the race). The rest should be stationary so a driver can tell the colour.
Flags supersede lights but as lemonysam says the colour of the flag is debatable.
No they don't: They are there to supplement each other. The colour of flag is in doubt, but one thing that is clear is that it isn't a yellow flag, ergo rationale suggests that it must be a green.
ergo rationale suggests that it must be a green.
Or black.
Lights are issued from race control and will be correct. Flags have an added element of dopey Marshall
Or blue
Warns a driver that he is about to be lapped and to let the faster car overtake. Pass three blue flags without complying and the driver risks being penalised. Blue lights are also displayed at the end of the pit lane when the pit exit is open and a car on track is approaching.
Edit: I know it says light but it could also mean flag...perhaps
total bbc non story. the incident was played live on SKY was briefly discussed where it was agreed that if the flags were yellow the race stewards would deal with any infringement.
it was later confirmed that the flags were infact yellow and red ( slippy surface) and perfectly acceptable to pass under..
next up the bbc will be telling us that jimmy saville may have been up to no good..
Lights are issued from race control and will be correct. Flags have an added element of dopey Marshall
A) That's not Vettel's problem is it?
B) According to the FIA, all lights must have repeaters that inform each marshall post of their status.
total bbc non story. the incident was played live on SKY was briefly discussed where it was agreed that if the flags were yellow the race stewards would deal with any infringement.
Well, if SKY says it's true, it must be true.
total bbc non story. the incident was played live on SKY was briefly discussed where it was agreed that if the flags were yellow the race stewards would deal with any infringement.Well, if SKY says it's true, it must be true.
Two different incidents, red/yellow flag was on Kobiashi, suspect yellow was on a Torro Rosso.
Or blueWarns a driver that he is about to be lapped and to let the faster car overtake. Pass three blue flags without complying and the driver risks being penalised. Blue lights are also displayed at the end of the pit lane when the pit exit is open and a car on track is approaching.
Edit: I know it says light but it could also mean flag...perhaps
Were any of the drivers involved about to be lapped?
Nearly 2 pages and no one has complained about the American style usage of 'appeal' in the thread title.
🙂
Did that Torro Rosso slow down ? Perhaps with a problem ??
Alonso is so overrated by people on here. His car wasn't nearly as bad as has been made out and since the fragile Massa has had his contract renewed Alonso hasn't been able to get hear him. Without all the mechanicals and people driving into him Hamilton would have walked the championship.
This very dull video shows three incidents. The last of which seem to be a clear violation.
Were any of the drivers involved about to be lapped?
No, however that Marshall post is at the end of the pit lane where you re- join the track.
...travelling circus cum farce...
I think I've got that DVD.
Post of the week.
Good spot Sam.
Also, to take up landcruiser's point, s it only 'overtaking' which is forbidden or 'passing?' Two very different things, one a risky move to force your way passed another car, the other might be a compliant car just getting out of the way.
Overtaking = Passing, classed as the same thing.
It's an irritating technicality. Would Vettel have been able to pass the Torro Rosso if there had been no flag, yes he had the pace advantage. So I don't feel it would have influenced the overall outcome of the race.
How may people arguing over this are doing 50 by the time they pass the 50 sign as opposed to getting to 50 after passing the sign.
He was in sight of the green and good to go in my clearly valueless opinion 🙂
toby1 - Member
It's an irritating technicality. Would Vettel have been able to pass the Torro Rosso if there had been no flag, yes he had the pace advantage. So I don't feel it would have influenced the overall outcome of the race.
It's not a technicality though, it's a hard and fast rule.... it's set in stone in all forms of motorsport...
"DO NOT PASS UNDER A YELLOW"
It's only when you have been there and had a rider of a Superbike sprawled across the track and you realise he was on the racing line, you'd have hit him if you'd gone for the overtake on the other rider. Situations like these (from back in my racing days) highlight that no overtaking/passing under a yellow is there for a VERY good reason... it's not just because the marshalls are bored, it's because potentially there's a danger to someone somewhere out on track near that particular section.
LOL at all the Ferrari/Alonso bashers. If the situation was reversed do you really think RedBull would just say "Oh well they talked about it on Sky(*) and said it was OK, so that's the end of it".
(*) Yeah I know it's not actually the same incident, and probably is OK anyway.
I dont/didn't want either of em to win he title but I have to say that the "boring video" that ampthill posted, clearly shows a rule infringement.
In my opinion Ferrari have a case.
the American style usage of 'appeal' in the thread title.
Are you sure about that?
Edit: oh, now I see what I think you mean...
It's vital that consistency is applied - no matter how marginal the rule contravention is.
Ferrari were penalised just because a little seal broke on Massa's gearbox the other week, even though it probably just caught on something and they never even needed to do any work on it.
So it would hardly be fair to let Vettel off even if what he did was accidental would it now.
TGA agree about consistency, but let's be clear about the Ferrari seal. A deliberate breaking of a seal to (self) impose an infringement with the sole intention of benefiting Alonso's title chances. Without cheating (in effect and note EJs comments on doing it again at Interlagos) Alonso's title hopes were gone before Brazil. If he won know it would be a very hollow victory IMO
#whoosh.... I think he might have been being a little tongue in cheek there teamhurtmore
regarding the hitting 50 before the 50 signs, I got caught on this by a copper hiding behind a tree. Cue a deserved £60 fine and three points.
kb - surely we appeal for, against or to something or someone? 🙂
Appeal on it's own is just wrong. 🙁
Pook/TGA - oops!!! 😳
It may not be the KK or JEV overtakes late in the race that are causing the speculation
starts about 10 mins in
I imagine the finger pointer will dislike having fingers pointed on this occasion.
Sorry this should have been raised whilst they still at the race. Sad though it may be as Hamo has been ****ed over soo many times by the rules post-races.
Would Alonso want to win this way? I hope not. However if rules are rules they should be followed. Otherwise why not let Hamo off when he was penalised to the book.
I hope nothing comes of it TBH
Technically, the deadline for protests is 23:59 tomorrow, so we'll see
Well that's clearly a pass under yellow in that video jota posted
Unless someone can explain why not?
Unless someone can explain why not?
Because there's a green flag waving from a marshalling post at the pit exit.
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and at around 35-37 sec in this video
They should drop the 20sec post-race penalty IMO. If he had it during the race he might have driven even faster/adjusted his strategy so to do it when he can't counter/adjust is unfair IMO.
Ah, I couldn't see it. Only that his dashboard was showing yellow and "FLAG"
So that's KK and JEV passes cleared as OK...what was the third in the boring video seeing as though it's now removed?
Think that green flag above was the lap before. Surely the yellow trackside lights that he passed only seconds before overtaking supersede that. His dash light was yellow as well.
Maybe he just made a mistake having seen the green ahead.
I think he's the better driver myself but unless it can be established that he wasn't in a yellow zone at the point of that pass, he should be penalised.
His dash light was yellow as well.
Dash lights are supplementary and not binding. Surely if there's any doubt about whether the marshal had a green flag or not, he shouldn't be penalised. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Think that green flag above was the lap before
Agreed, Vettel didn't pass JEV [the 1st time] until lap 4