[Closed] feminists.

Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a [i]massive[/i] problem with bellendery of which misogyny, racism and homophobia are easy outlets. I'm not convinced that in the majority of cases it [i]originates[/i] in misogyny, I think it originates in the desire to abuse people and the grabbing of whatever tool is least challenging to wield.

Sarkeesian’s videos argue that often female game characters face deadly harm as a context for bloody male-perpetrated revenge, and that this could contribute toward a culture in which threatening violence against women is normalised.

...as long as you're happy for someone to come after you and enact bloody revenge, anyway. The whole "female in jeopardy" plot device is worn out completely but this complaint of it in particular doesn't hold much water imo. It's a thing that the bad guys do, then get killed for, that's not going to normalise it to kids playing the good guys. It helps normalise the idea that women are weak and need protecting but gaming is a drop in a very big bucket there.

IMO [s]gaming and comic book worlds[/s] heterosexual men are obsessed with tits and fannies

Does it really surprise anyone, that an industry that supplies a predominantly adolescent male audience with a product, is including quite a lot of T&A in that product?

I mean really?

A substantial part of the history of heterosexual male adolescence is solely about the frustration and anxiety of getting with the opposite sex.

[i]Does it really surprise anyone,[/i]

not surprising, no. Doesn't make it right though.

Yep, emsz has the point there, it's not has it or does it but should it. Why should things be propagated that women are objects? As said it's a bit of a defend the indefensible.

The idea that women are materially more disadvantaged in this country than any other group, including white middle class men, is in my view a myth.

Are you aware of the gender pay gap in the UK? It's not an idea it's a fact. Currently 9% and that's a record low. If you want to view that (and white male privilege) as a myth then that's up to you.

edit: I'd also point out the idea of gamers being adolescent is outdated. We've grown up. There was a study just last year which found the average gamer was in his mid thirties. In my particular case that's right on the money.

Northwind - Member
Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a massive problem with bellendery

Haha, 'bellendery'. That's a funny word.

Are you aware of the gender pay gap in the UK? It's not an idea it's a fact. Currently 9% and that's a record low. If you want to view that (and white male privilege) as a myth then that's up to you.

A gender pay gap of 9% does not prove that there is gender inequality. It just shows that there is a gender pay gap. It can be explained by other factors such as the tendency for women to approach salary negotiation differently. You also have a lag in the system that will take time to reduce to within a margin for error and the trend over time has been showing that this is happening.

Yep, emsz has the point there, it's not has it or does it but should it. Why should things be propagated that women are objects? As said it's a bit of a defend the indefensible.

Doesn't make it wrong either. You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

Perhaps. But that's not really the problem, that's just one facet (and an easy target for both sides).

[i]You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form[/i]

Oh please. 🙄

please move on from that one. It's just an excuse for behavior that's threatening and creepy. As cougar says.

Stand back wimminz!!! Help is on its way!!!!!

[img] [/img]

@ emsz

Please don't conflate games & comic books (cause you got me there), Most are just soft-porn right-wing power fantasies by people unable to write a novel.

P.S. Destiny makes me die inside

[i]Please don't conflate games & comic books[/i]

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20130211012254[/img]

whatever 🙄

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form

Oh please.

please move on from that one. It's just an excuse for behavior that's threatening and creepy. As cougar says.

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form, but it shouldn't be an excuse for threatening and creepy behaviour.

"IMO gaming and comic book worlds are obsessed with tits and fannies"

They are! They are played and read by teenage boys who actively fantasise and are fascinated by girl anatomy. So are we surprised.

But I agree that Manga can propagate misogynistic stereotypes such as the "Warrior Princess", and the association between being an evil mastermind and wearing a trim-beard.

obsess
?b?s?s/Submit
verb
preoccupy or fill the mind of (someone) continually and [b]to a troubling extent.[/b]

Im not sure gaming has an issue with misogyny specifically... It has a massive problem with bellendery of which misogyny, racism and homophobia are easy outlets.

I haven't noticed a lot of macho bloke rescues helpless female in the games I play but maybe I'm not looking for it, lots of the games I do play have plenty of female characters if not the main protagonist

"IMO gaming and comic book worlds are obsessed with tits and fannies"

emsz - if you fancy doing writing a comic book about a liberal, gay super-hero, who not only saves the world, but has impeccable taste in furnishings, and campaigns for gender equality, I'll do the illustrations!

Together we can shift perceptions sister. We'll sell squillions!!!!

Oh.... hang on a minute.....

I reckon that the depiction of women in computer games is sensitive and accurate and not at all large companies playing on fairly degrading stereotypes in search of titillation. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off down the shops.
[img] [/img]

edit: oh, there was a lot more... erm... silver involved than I could see in the zoomed out version of that...

[i]if you fancy doing writing a comic book about a liberal, gay super-hero, who not only saves the world, but has impeccable taste in furnishings, and campaigns for gender equality[/i]

I'd need to have total editorial control on her fabulous wardrobe, the reasons why she can't seem to keep houseplants alive (random but true) and why it's not at all weird that she can't have a normal relationship (where's my Hollyoak thread)

She shreds as well. And can change tubes with her bare hands grrrr 😆

^binners - that's crap and you know it. Nobody is suggesting it has to be that way to be right.

Although I'll call you on that one and say it's already been done (just about, not sure on his stance on gender equality):

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

that in this country at least (other places are vastly different), men and women enjoyed entirely equal opportunity.

We are better than many countries but lets not pretend we have achieved equality

the heterosexual male obsession with the female form and simply being fascinated by it and wanting to look at it is perfectly healthy.

*fistbumps* lemonysam

You aren't going to change the heterosexual male obsession with the female form

*which the right and wrongs of can be discussed elsewhere

But
That's Harley Quinn from DC Comics or maybe Jessica Nigri

[i]That's Harley Quinn from DC Comics[/i]

as portrayed in Injustice gods amongst us..y'know...a game. 🙄

EMZ check out " my secret identity " a female superhero comic strip on feminist lines, featured in Geeked magazine, both available online or on facebook

Not sure why "T&A" has to pervade pretty much everything tho.

Same reason Channing Tatum has a career.

Can we just all agree that anything associated with DC of late is hardly going to be flying the flag for feminism/ mental health issues/ any other controversy they can generate for headline appeal?

Moving on, I agree that whilst games could do far better to present women as real people rather than eye candy some of the targets are just ridiculous.

GTA and Saints Row are two that spring to mind instantly. Whilst one is 'grittier' than the other neither can claim to be anything other than a massive exaggeration of reality. The people who moan about female NPC's who can be killed are the ones who get my back up as they are completely ignoring the fact that you can do the same thing to the male NPC's.

There is also precious little praise for the games that do get it right, how many feminists have praised Half Life (for example) for it's strong NPC characters (Yes, Alyx gets kidnapped but then again how often do Freeman and Shepherd get done over during the course of the series?). Perhaps if more feminists focussed on the games getting it right people would realise that compromising on the TNA doesn't require a PC love-in.

A gender pay gap of 9% does not prove that there is gender inequality. It just shows that there is a gender pay gap.

I didn't say that. You said it was a myth that women were materially disadvantaged. You specifically said compared to white males (LOL). If they're not earning it where are they getting the 9%? From men? Is that equality?

It can be explained by other factors such as the tendency for women to approach salary negotiation differently.

Victim-blaming.

You also have a lag in the system that will take time to reduce to within a margin for error and the trend over time has been showing that this is happening.

We're measuring the margin of error in 'the lag' now? Sorry geetee I don't think you've a clue what you're on about, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

We kinda glossed over it a bit back, but the "games are for teenage boys" is a bit of a misnomer. The largest demographic of gamers is, yes, blokes, but aged over 30.

Games companies - well, some games companies - are wising up to this slowly, and whilst we still see titles like DOA5, where the anatomically typical contestants in a fighting game are sporting traditional martial arts attire:

[img] [/img]

... and, of course, its "Extreme Beach Volleyball" spin-off titles, we are slowly getting three-dimensional female characters who aren't there to either provide gratuitous T&A or be rescued by a triangular Marine. Cf, Ms Croft's latest incarnation:

[img] [/img]

Software houses are gradually working out that not appealing solely to pubescent males is a good thing (probably because they've realised there's money in it). Most newer Blizzard titles have allowed you to create male or female characters (though they do still pander a little to stereotypes, you're often choosing between muscles or breasts). The Mass Effect games allow you to create your Commander character as either gender, and don't pigeon-hole you into heterosexual dialogue; The same is true of a few RPG series now I come to think about it, Dragon Age and Fable jump to mind. And even if a game isn't forward-thinking enough to allow you to get in touch with your inner lesbian, at least having a choice of a female player character is becoming more commonplace even if all that changes is the texture model.

So this is great, yes? Well, it's a step in the right direction, but it's telling that I could rhyme off in one sentence the titles that get it right. I've heard tales of parents having to explain to their daughters why they have to play games as a boy character; choice is good, and it's not just about pandering to women who are a minority in the games arena (hmm, can't think why that might be). Hell, [i]I'll [/i]usually pick a female character when given a choice.

Video games are part of our culture now in the way that films and TV have long been established, so we have a new burden of responsibility here. There's no harm in aiming some titles at a demographic per sé; FIFA 15 isn't going to sell many copies to people who don't like football. But this shouldn't be the norm, the only role models for little Jennie shouldn't be the glorified secretary who pops up on the radio occasionally whilst the men get on with doing the real work, or the helpless princess who exists solely to be rescued by, yes, the bloke.

Tomb Raider should be applauded, and Bayonetta for that matter too (even if she's as mad as a box of frogs and has broken fasteners on most of her clothing). These women kick bottom, the whole premise of Tomb Raider is a tale where the big clever men don't take the silly little girl seriously until she hands the bad guys their arses and saves everyone from certain death. Good work, Lara.

STATO like I said, it's depressing 🙁

We kinda glossed over it a bit back, but the "games are for teenage boys" is a bit of a misnomer. The largest demographic of gamers is, yes, blokes, but aged over 30. who still live in their fetid bedrooms at their mums house, hunched over screens, with the curtains shut, surrounded by an ocean of crusty Kleenex

Is anyone else waiting for Alpin to come back and explain exactly why feminists have been getting on his mewbs?

Interesting though the chat about gaming and misogyny is...

We're measuring the margin of error in 'the lag' now? Sorry geetee I don't think you've a clue what you're on about, but you are of course entitled to your opinion.

Funny that given that I did a year of Gender Studies at uni which included reviewing a lot of feminist literature and data on the issue.

Victim-blaming.

It could be, but there was a study done recently that find evidence to support this. I will try to find it.

As for the pay differential, yes, it's 9% (I do think you did well to get the correct figure rather than the one usually used in this situations, which is around 20%. That higher figure does not account for the spread in roles typically taken by women being more likely to be low paid because they also give greater flexibility. Honestly, I don't mean this in a patronising way, just acknowleding that you have done your homework).

9% isn't far off the margin of error. It could mean the difference is really only 4%.

[i]and Bayonetta for that matter too[/i]

hmm not sure about the witch, she's a bit of **** material really isn't she? (from memory skin tight clothes with ridiculous high heels, and no back)

Her ridiculously high heels are guns, so it's clearly plot-related.

Eh, bad example perhaps. (-:

Anybody think of a punchline?

"How many feminists does it take to read Fifty Shades of Grey?"

"How many feminists does it take to read Fifty Shades of Grey?"

Moreover, how many men would try to explain it to them afterwards?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/arts-entertainment/lovejoy-to-join-marvel-universe-2015021195254 ]Finally... a superhero for the laydeeeeez[/url] 😀

[img] [/img]

or from the rear...

[img] ?w=480&h[/img]

What's not to like?

The only game I can think of with a female protagonist, where it's completely inconsequential that she's female (as in the plot doesn't make a massive deal about her being of the lady persuasion, she just gets on with it, as it should be) is in Portal.

Feminists are just a group of people who have massive amounts of penis envy

Do you talk about that a lot when you get together with your fellow feminists then poah?

I don't really mind playing games as a male character (sort of got used to it now) but it's the obvious way that you can't be a woman that I just get pee'd off with . How hard would it be say FIFA to have a couple womens teams? Or one of the GTA characters to have been a woman? Or just not have the women prancing about in their undies (the street fighter version I've got all the girls are wearing g strings 🙄 )

Games I play? Halo, Bioshock, Lego (obvs) Portal, Far Cry, I like the assassins and Prince of Persia (sad I know) All are just games y'know?