She was surprisingly lightweight.
if the team didn't want vettel to win, why are there no messages let mark back through?
It would have been better if Vettel had said what he really did... "**** team orders, I'm here to win!" None of this naughty school boy stuff.
They should be shown tapes of Senna v Prost to show them how it is done properly, then made to have a fight in the garage.
I am on the fence on this one.
Vettel has staked his claim early on in the championship like a true determined champion. Webber has crumbled and let him past. The issue I have is that Vettel went against team orders to do so including risking all the work and money put in by the team. I respect that he did the move etc but think it is poor play to dismiss a team order.
Webber has done the right thing but let himself down at the same time. If he continues being a gentleman then I doubt he will ever win a championship. He should have subtly run Vettel off the road. But again as said earlier he would have got his balls booted by his team. He should still do it and move team at end of the year after a storming season if he has it in him. So far he has only proven that he does not have real winning in him.
Good race 
then made to have a fight in the garage.
Vetter"you got your tool"
Webber"what tool"
V "this ****ing tool"
shows bombers
Breaks them on old granite jaw who then pummels him to death
Never liked vettel and today summed him up completely - a spoilt , selfish , immature driver that has no respect for his employers or the other drivers. Although he may have got protection in the past, I think Horner was fuming and there will be repercussions. Hopefully this will be the last straw for Webber and he moves to McLaren!
Does anyone know if Webber actually slowed down as a result of team instructions, allowing Vettel to catch up ?
If that's the case he's got every right to be narked; if he was going as fast as he could and was relying on team orders to keep Vettel out then he's fair game IMO, and the sport's all the better for a bit of racing
Sorry its racing. **** team orders. You cant temper someones focus to win. Hence why Webber will always be another 'good' driver. Not a great driver. Still come on Kimilton!
hora it is only racing if both race; this was as close to cheating as it was to racing
It's what, second race of the season? Team orders? Crazy.... no one has any great advantage , let them scrap it out, it's what the paying public want to see. Today has reminded me why I stopped watching F1.
Vettel acted like a knob. Teams are allowed 8 engines for the season and once it was clear that Red Bull had done enough to win the instructions was to save the engine on the last few laps. Webber did this and the KNOB ignored this.
From BBC sport:
Webber added: "We have had a lot of history. I respect Seb. It is still very raw at the moment because we had a plan before the race.... I should probably stop now.
"It's very, very, very hard for Seb to sit there when we are told to bring the car home safely.[u] I turned the engine down and was reassured twice that we would not use the cars against each other[/u].
"It's very hard for people to understand the situation. They think they know what went on but they don't.
If I was Webber I would of just let Vettal run over my front tyre & take both cars out, what would of happened then?
[i]Vettel acted like a knob[/i]
really? Looked to me liked he acted like a man headed for his 4th world Championship. Alonso off, no danger from Hamilton, behind the man in the same car as him...Ask yourself, when/if he wins this year by less than 7 pts will Horner be chastising him for a dodgy bit of rule bending in the 2nd race that everyone's forgotten about?
Yes really. He won because Webber eased off as per team plan. If he didn't he could have won. Vettels victory was far from sweet. Lots of people have acted like knobs because of their greed/need to be numero uno, remember Mr Amstrong? Hitler? Victory at any cost.
I'm on the 'Vettel is a knob' side of the fence.
Webber could probably have kept a few seconds ahead of Vettel if he hadn't turned his engine down and backed off (and was assured there would be no threat). I didn't think there was a driver who I could despise more than Schumacher, but Vettel is really gunning for the obnoxious twunt of F1 award.
Godwin's on an F1 thread, a first* surely?
*dodgy overtaking when no-one was looking notwithstanding, clearly
Vettel is a weasel.
What's strange is that Schumacher might have been a weasel too, but I liked him and don't like Vettel. Hypocritical fan is hypocritical, I guess.
Vettel is a weasel, I agree. Never liked him. In fact every race he leads for more than 15 laps I tend to get pissed off and lose interest. But! Today I found myself thinking, for a second, good lad! Dunno if its just me, but my heroes were Senna and Schumacher. Both of which were born winners. Team orders meant shit to these guys, and theyre two of the biggest legends in f1. Their prickly characters made them great viewing in interviews too.
If Vettel would MTFU and say, "I passed Webber because he's a pussy and I'm faster". Then he'd be heading towards greatness. His actions would be totally justified and Id become a Vettel fan.
But at present his status is still weasel!
Furry muff. Agree. Born winners dont backpedal. Mucho like I am now 😉
I think it's a bit rich Webber taking the moral high ground because when he left the pitts Vettel was along side and Webber just stuck it up the inside on cold tyres, that was the moment that was the most dangerous for the team. After that I think the red mist decended for a bit on Vettel and he was determined to pass.
He tried to squeeze Vettel into the wall as well, if he was playing the team game then why would he defend to aggressively?
From yesterday's viewing, I cans safely say that Vettel is a born weiner.
Beating a car that's been told to go slow to preserve engines for later in the series. I do hope karma gets him when his engine goes in a deciding race at the end of the season.
Hamilton's interview was strange - looked like he's had rather accepted his fate and Rosberg got third. Quite a contrast between finger pointer and hamster there.
I turned the engine down and was reassured twice that we would not use the cars against each other.
Well you'd think that, as an experienced driver, he knows where the dial to turn it back up again was. If that was really the difference between 1st and 2nd, and he really wanted the win, it'd hardly be a wild action
Well you'd think that, as an experienced driver, he knows where the dial to turn it back up again was. If that was really the difference between 1st and 2nd, and he really wanted the win, it'd hardly be a wild action
When? I amagine Webber's thoughts were along the lines of "When he's 5secs back? No need. 3 secs back? No, nothing to worry about. 2 secs? No, don't worry. He's right behind me now, but it's OK, he's been told not to try to pass, it'll make a nice photo with a formation finish. **** what's he doing now?!"
.
I'm surprised at Mercedes though, if Webber was having to turn it down I would expect them to give Rosberg a clear run at him, he would have stood a better chance of second than Hamilton. But top marks to Rosberg, he did what Vettle should have done ie. respect the team's decision, even if clearly not happy about it. Vettel may have shot himself in the foot, if he ever needs Webber to help him out later on...
.
I remember back in 1999 in one of the early races Eddie Irvine moved over to let Schumacher through as he was the number one and the team favoured him. Schumacher then broke his leg at Silverstone and missed a few races, Irvine was in the hunt or the title against Hakkinen until the last race, he lost by fewer points than he gave to Schumacher in that race. Sometimes it doesn't pay to have your Number 2 move over. If RB let Vettel take the points from Webber now and then something happens and it goes to a fight between Webber and Alonso they may be kicking themselves. I know what I'm saying, did that make sense?
McLaren used to say race until the last stop, then hold position, that seems fair, gives the drivers a fair chance without undue risk tot he team.
F1 is dull shit ,worse than cycling for racing to team orders
F1 is dull shit ,worse than cycling for racing to team orders
Thanks for that educated opinion, I think Sky might've found their new strap line.
I'm surprised at Mercedes though, if Webber was having to turn it down I would expect them to give Rosberg a clear run at him, he would have stood a better chance of second than Hamilton. But top marks to Rosberg, he did what Vettle should have done ie. respect the team's decision, even if clearly not happy about it. Vettel may have shot himself in the foot, if he ever needs Webber to help him out later on...
Wasn't Mercedes issue that they under fueled the car & if they let them race & chase down Red Bull they stood a chance of running out of fuel?
The whole end of the race seemed an anti climax, Seb was sensible enough not to celebrate too much, Adrian Newey seemed annoyed to be put up between those two & Webber obviously wanted to punch Seb & Lewis seemed embarrassed to be there.
re: Mercedes, you have no idea how high Hamilton went on the engine mapping side, in the middle of the race to get track position, only to get penalised for it later, so why penalise Rosberg? a simple instruction for hamilton to move aside in the DRS zone could have seen Rosberg challenging for 2nd. BRAWN has always stated "we are here to race" yet in actual fact today he went for a PR stunt and wanted the new/old sponsors to see a new face on the podium and justify the vast amounts of money they spent to get him.
as for vettel, he clearly weighed up the consequence of disobeying a team order 'v' the extra championship points and took the points, knowing there is nothing the team will do.
I think Webber is a good driver on his odd day he has, but not the best, and is a bit of a Rubens. he knows the team, knows vettel, knows the power and backing Vettel has in that team, and so he will throw his toys out of the pram and continue as normal, as vettels b**ch.
Semi- OT watched a 50's racing programme last night. I didn't realise how Mike Hawthorn died (same year as his title win) and how/his poor-declining health.
knowing there is nothing the team will do.
I think that's the crux of it. He'll look naughty until the next race and then people will forget once there's some new news.
I'd rate Webber rather higher than Reubens mind - don't forget that but for some awful tactical calls at the last race of the season, he'd probably have been RB's first world champ, not Vettel. He's definitely not as adaptable as Vettel though which has been shown when RB have come up with new exhaust solutions that require driving differently to get the best from them - each time that's happened, Vettel has clearly taken the upper hand.
Anybody think Vettel will have a sticky wheel nut at the next race? 😉
Racings racing, at this stage in the season team orders shouldn't come into it, when one member has a definite point advantage half way through perhaps.
I haven't seen the race, but I do find all the anti-Vettel vitriol amusing. A couple of years ago, people were irate that Ferrari used team orders to Massa to let Alonso through (a very sensible thing to do if you have one driver in WC contention). Now, people are getting their knickers in a twist because one driver actually decided to race (isn't that the point?)! Make your minds up! 😆
Loving all the 'spoilt brat', 'poor sportsman' type comments. Vettel is a 3-time WC. Webber is a makeweight reliable experienced number two. He knows this himself, so he can't be too upset by Vettel's 'unsporting' behaviour.
As for it being bad for the sport, as some seem to think; it was being discussed on Radio 4 this morning. And I'd imagine there's media comment all over the world. So F1 is in the spotlight; I dare say Bernie is well chuffed.
If I'm going to watch what is mostly a pretty dull 'sport', then I at least want a bit of excitement. People like Vettel provide that. Webber doesn't. I don't want to see 'gentlemen' being all polite and courteous; I want to see ruthless, driven bastards winning. Because winning's what it's all about. First is everything; second is nowhere.
I haven't seen the race, so what I'm about to write will probably be complete bollocks
'team orders' deciding who wins a race- then its not really a race just a giant marketing exercise
I still believe F1 is as staged as WWF wrestling, so wouldnt be surprised if this was all set up to make a dull 'sport' look vaguely exciting
you know every so often I get a hunch/feeling that some teams get backroom 'support'. The Double-diffuser row with Brawn was one of them. It should have been shut down very quickly but dragged on......I still believe F1 is as staged as WWF wrestling
Formula one driver who actually races causes outrage.
How strange.
I haven't seen the race, so what I'm about to write will probably be complete bollocks
Oh dear. So instead of actually engaging with the debate, you've resorted to childish nonsense. How very mature. 🙄
Care to explain why it's 'complete bollocks' then? Or are you incapable of doing so without being a dick?
Formula one driver who actually races causes outrage.How strange.
I know; ridiculous, isn't it? 😆
Care to explain why it's 'complete bollocks' then?
It's pretty self explanatory really. You stated you'd not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.
See, easy.
And you don't even have to abuse people to make your point either.
Now, people are getting their knickers in a twist because one driver actually decided to race (isn't that the point?)! Make your minds up!
The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…
Webber: I turned the engine down and was reassured twice that we would not use the cars against each other
Subtle difference here is that this is akin to a fight being broken up, with Webber essentially having his arms held back while Vettel has struggled free and taken a free punch. Really the act of an honourable racer?
I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.
I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.
Pretty much how I interpreted thx1138's post, yes.
The thing is, at this stage in the season, the only team orders are 'both finish'. From what I've heard, most teams don't mind a bit of overtaking between team mates(!) up until the last pit stop, then you stay in position to preserve the car and get two drivers in the points.
This isn't good enough for Vettel, hence why so many people are unhappy.
The very subtle but key point here which keeps getting ignored is this…
...Webber making excuses for losing a race. something which has become quite familiar over the last few years. Fact is he's not as good a driver as Vettel; hence why RB quite rightly chose to favour him over Webber.
Last year's championship was decided over just 3 points. Vettel gained 7 more points on Sunday, than he would have done for finishing 2nd. come the end of the season, that 7 extra points could well be crucial; indeed, if we look to 2010 the margin was just 4 points, and in 2007 and 2008, just 1 point. Now Webber, given his results, really doesn't look like a championship contender (his best year was when Vettel was still very inexperienced, and he still lost), so better that Vettel did what he did, to give himself the best possible chance. Vettel isn't in it for anyone's benefit but his own, and that's the kind of 'arrogance', selfishness and single-mindedness that is required to win WCs. Senna and Schumacher were never particularly 'sporting', but they are hailed as true greats. Webber is not; he's a dependable rear-gunner at best.
If Webber really has what it takes, he'd have gone after Vettel (or not allowed him to pass in the first place). He didn't, and it shows that in that team, it's Vettel who is the real leader.
It's pretty self explanatory really. You stated you'd not seen something, then proceeded to speculate wildly about it. It has all the hallmarks of being bollocks.
I didn't have to, given the wealth of comment and information available in the media. I'm merely commenting on the nature of Vettel's actions, not the pass itself. But you'd have known that, if you weren't so belligerent. 😉
I haven't taken the time to watch the race or understand any of the rule changes over the last couple of seasons, but I'm 100% convinced that Vettel is in the right.
A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i'm wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why. 🙂
(I shan't be holding my breath waiting though)
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Because winning's what it's all about. First is everything; second is nowhere.
Bollocks!
Most famous british racing driver?
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Moss believed the manner in which the battle was fought was as important as the outcome. This sporting attitude cost him the 1958 Formula 1 World Championship. When rival Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a penalty in the Boavista Urban Circuit in Porto, Portugal, Moss defended Hawthorn's actions. Hawthorn was accused of reversing in the track after spinning and stalling his car on an uphill section of the track. Moss himself shouted the suggestion to Hawthorn that he steer downhill, against traffic, to bump-start the car, which Hawthorn did. Moss's quick thinking and then gracious defence of Hawthorn before the stewards preserved Hawthorn's 6 points for his second-place finish (behind Moss). Hawthorn went on to beat Moss for the title by one point even though he won only one race that year to Moss's four, making Hawthorn Britain's first World Champion.
Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.
A totally focussed, determined and passionate driver does whatever it takes (within the rules), to win a race. I thought that was what the sport was all about. Maybe i'm wrong, and someone will come along and offer the reasons why.
Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner. 😀
Webber could have put Vettel into the gravel, but he didn't. Horner got his 1-2. Next time Webber might decide to put Vettel into the gravel and leave Horner with no points at all. Unless Vettel thinks he needs to take every possible point off Webber its a really stupid move at this time of the season.
