[Closed] F1 - Indian Gp - who's going to win?

Vettel.

Interesting? Probably not. 😕

The really good bloke with the finger?

Barring incidents it has to be Vettel.

Anyway, far more important........

Lee McKenzie.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Bernie Ecclestone

Looking forward to Webber's book.

what a piss take ! ... feel for webber 🙁

Kimi going out of his way to post fastest lap with a new set of tyres for the last lap was quite funny!

They really need some better national anthems...

This season started quite promising but has turned back into a pit lane/tyre preservation competition.

Interesting to see whether the changes for next season do anything to spice things up!

That was so dull James Allen resorted to explaining why the phone in on 5Live was called slicks at six 😛 oh Vettel won what a surprise.

You know it has gone to pot when the Mexican was told not to race Vettel to save his tyres. That was for position as well. Technical exercise where the most money usually wins yes, racing no.

Yawn yawn yawn

Yeah, after the last race, I felt so deflated with the boredom that I took the opportunity to see some decent racing and saw Rush at the pictures. Should have done the same tonight!

I have no gripe with Vettel at all and think the booing is misplaced. However, the sport is in a bad way when it requires built in tire obsolesence to make it entertaining.

Congrats to Newey - a genius!

Pirrelli need shooting for destroying the season. Ever since they moved back to the 2012 tyre Red Bull had it in the bag. The FIA need to take some blame as well. F1 seems to be a mess right now with the tyre situation and it needs sorted ASAP to make it with watching again.

F1 seems to be a mess [s]right now[/s]

FIFY!

it needs sorted ASAP to make it with watching again.

Why? Its not been worth watching for years and yet a lot of people still tune in for every race!

Why? Its not been worth watching for years and yet a lot of people still tune in for every race!

Hang on, you're right! All this time I thought I'd been thoroughly enjoying the races, in fact I hadn't.

....or maybe some people like things you don't....?

Pirelli deliver what the FIA ask for , a dogs dinner of a tyre,so blame them IMHO
No one can say with any certainty that vettel is better than Alonso or hamilton so what is the point of the "competition".
Which ever one of those 3 were in the Red bull would be dominating
The booing is because i assume the fans agree - I dont watch it anymore as thankfully my kids now find it dull.

Fee foo what do you like then about it? Serious question

....or maybe some people like things you don't....?

What? No, never! Although the point I was trying to make (badly) is that people have been complaining about F1 being boring and needing to change since before I got bored and stopped watching it properly in the late 90s and yet there are still a lot of people who enjoy it!

Apart from the closer racing these days, of which admittedly there has been less this year, I love the whole world of F1.
That includes the technology, the people, the spectacle, the "politics", the pushing of boundaries and rules.

I've loved it all the way through from Hunt and Lauda, Senna and Prost, Schumacher and Hakkinen to the present day.
The TV coverage in recent years, first with BBC and now with Sky HD just makes it come alive.

The tyres, the aero, DRS, Kers are variables that all add to the picture. Love it!

And an interview with David Clouthard on the podium.

It would be cruel to say that Red Bull have really struggled without him, wouldn't it?

I used to watch avidly during the 90 s and early 00 s. Sort of got bored and ignored it for a few years and was surprised to find Williams was an also ran team when I came back. I watched the season, Vettals 2nd title I think, and couldn't get back into it. 3 session qualify is a good idea and more fun than before

Might try again next year if the new engines and other changes make it interesting.

Mark Webber must be the unluckiest man in F1 at the moment, just goes to show luck is as important as driving ability and having a fast car of course

£20,000 for a wheel spin!

I've been following F1 since the mid '80's, but have really switched off over the past few years. Despite the 'closer' racing this season, which I am not enjoying as its staged and artificial due to DRS and the silly tyres, what I miss is being able to see the evidence of the driver input from a spectators point of view. F1 racing has become so proceduralised. The drivers are really following a set of instructions from the engineers mathematical modelling that tells them the what the perfect lap looks like; take this corner in this gear at this number of revs, drive at 80% for 10 laps then 5 hot laps, take this specific line through this corner, switch to this engine map on that lap, whatever you do don't drift the car or it'll wreck the tyres etc. I love watching playbacks from the early days where you could see the drivers working the cars, 4 wheel drifting, diving for gaps into corners - which in the modern game seems to be frowned upon!! Its definitely lost the plot.

Not saying the drivers are not as good as they used to be, and the speeds are definitely higher, but its not resulting in a better spectator sport - for me at least.

weare138 - Member
£20,000 for a wheel spin!

He knew he'd get a fine or reprimand for it and did it anyway. My estimations of him went up a bit today.

"We" need a new top flight series IMO - enclosed bodies/wheels but still high power engines, minimum roof heights and widths and no tyre stops, or at least enforce minimum duration for pitstops. (Sort of like crazier GpB tarmac rallying - that was safe, wasn't it ? 😯 )

That way they may develop some relevant new technology.

He knew he'd get a fine or reprimand for it and did it anyway. My estimations of him went up a bit today.

scaredypants - Member
"We" need a new top flight series IMO - enclosed bodies/wheels but still high power engines, minimum roof heights and widths and no tyre stops, or at least enforce minimum duration for pitstops. (Sort of like crazier GpB tarmac rallying - that was safe, wasn't it ? )

That way they may develop some relevant new technology.

+1 on that. I really love F1 but it needs a kick up the arse.

I'd have manual gearboxes, minimal aero, big HP. A fixed amount of fuel you're free to use how you want, V12, V6 turbo whatever.

Have you read Gary Andersons view on the redbull passive floor?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24659085 ][/url]

I think all top level sport is getting boring these days, it's all become too commercial with too much money riding on it, so the best teams make the most money & can increase the gap, gone are the days of F1 where a Jordan or Ligier can win. It's the same with football, it's going to end up where the only valid competition is something like the team world cups in football, cricket & rugby where money doesn't have quite the same influence....yet.

bigdean - Member
Have you read Gary Andersons view on the redbull passive floor?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24659085 ][/url]
br />

Interesting! Hadn't seen that before.

The booing is because i assume the fans agree

No, I think the booing is as a factor of his ****tish behaviour at the start of the season, especially when he pissed on Webber's chips.

But yeah, I'm with Retro23.

"You have this much fuel, whatever tyres you want, and xyz mandatory safety features (the fact that no driver has died since Senna is frankly amazing, and that's one aspect of the good old days we could do without), now make a car that gets to the end the fastest". Even: "Because you have so little fuel, you'd better have some KERS or similar.", then, just let them innovate, because whilst we've all found it boring watching Vettel drive off into the sunset, F1 is about the car as much as the driver.

That would make it more interesting. Perhaps cap the budget so that the smaller teams do stand half a chance occasionally also. I'd also say let the six-wheelers come back!

That article is very interesting Gary seems to know what he is on about most of the time.

I just ignore vettel and watch the rest of the races, much more interesting/less annoying that way

"We" need a new top flight series IMO - enclosed bodies/wheels but still high power engines, minimum roof heights and widths and no tyre stops, or at least enforce minimum duration for pitstops.

Been saying the same for years. F1 is a joke. It's pathetic that they're the state of the wheeled art yet they have exposed wheels and strict aero regs that force the designers to put as many winglets and flaps on the cars that they look crap. As you say they should have full body aero with no wings, flat floor to the rear axle and slicks that just last a race. I'd also go with full electric. Then we'd see some serious innovation.

That said there is loads of better motor sport to watch. Check the FIA GT series, Blancpain Endurance series etc.

Thta's a very interesting piece by Gary Anderson.

I thought that Vettel's celebrations at the end were great, we need to see more emotion like that in the races. I think the drivers make it look easy nowadays as they generally do a lot more training and don't tend to make alot of fatigue related mistakes/misjudgements. It still takes a lot of chutzpah to drive the things and the speed of directions changes is phenomenal.

As above, the race represents a very small anmount of what F1 is about, I find reading about the politics and technical stuff just as fascinating as the racing and lends the race some context when you see a few drivers constantly ghetting into each other.

I must admit that this season I've missed lots of races and haven't been fussed. I've seen the whispers about passive traction control and it reminded me how F1 management would love to break the big old teams dominance/leverage on agreements/Concorde.

Something doesnt smell right about F1. I'm out.

whilst technology has always been a part of the sport i think the problem now is that it is the sport
Engine mapping, computer simulations, engineering tricks to gain time etc

Does anyone really think , given equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso that Vettel would have won 4 back to back?
I doubt even Vettel does

Given that its not so much a sport as an engineering contest

For the first and only time I wholeheartedly agree with Junkyard.

What annoyed me was the trick Williams FW14 car that was waay ahead of the competition. Without that car would Mansell have won his title?

F1 has always been an engineering contest as much as a driver one (if not more), but I still think the tyre situation is a disaster. Pirelli do have to take a major part of the blame, because although the FIA asked for high degradation tyres, they didn't ask for dangerous ones, as we saw earlier in the season. These resulted in a change back to a 2012 design which favoured Red Bull and a few others (Sauber?) massively to other teams disadvantage. Also I'm sure the FIA didn't expect Pirelli to produce a tyre so bad that people were pitting after 1 or 2 laps yesterday, farce.

Worse it seems that the relationship between Pirelli and the teams is very strained, so god knows what will happen next year.

Does anyone really think , given equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso that Vettel would have won 4 back to back?

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel, yet has consistently been way behind Vettel in the world championship standings. If the Red Bull is as far ahead of the competition as some might suggest, then why is Webber only 5th in the current standings? Considering he's a decent racing driver. Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonnen are in 'inferior' cars, yet are above Webber. To say it's al down to the car is disingenuous. If that were the case, then surely Webber would have been the 2nd best driver over the last 4 years?

Vettel is an exceptionally talented driver who has the ability to get the very best out of his car (remember his win in a Torro Rosso? How many other drivers could have managed that?), in practice, qualifying and the race. His desire to win everything, even fastest lap, marks him out as a true great.

Boring? People have been saying that about F1 for as long as I can remember (early 80s onwards).

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel, yet has consistently been way behind Vettel in the world championship standings.

Mark Webber has never been a top-line driver. He's very much in the Coulthard/Button mould IMO - solid, dependable points scorers with the odd win thrown in.

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel

Hes in the mould of Irvine, Coulthard, Herbert etc. Plus Vettel gets the treatment, upgrades etc.

F1 isn't boring. There is more politics than actual honest racing both on and off the track. Its the politics that dulls it for me. There have been good drivers too who leave F1/never get in because of how much money they can bring in to pay for their drive directly or indirectly. So its not 'the best driver in the world'. Its the best car, the best sponsorship and who can hide tech.

So its not 'the best driver in the world'.

There are perhaps only 3 or 4 drivers in the current line up who are comparable to Vettel; Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and perhaps Perez (one for the future) in terms of talent. Red Bull would not have 4 drivers world championships if they had only Webber to rely on. F1 is about a combination of engineering and driver ability. At the moment, they have the perfect combination with Vettel.

Vettel's a briliant driver, end of.

cybicle - Member

So its not 'the best driver in the world'.

There are perhaps only 3 or 4 drivers in the current line up who are comparable to Vettel; Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen and perhaps Perez (one for the future) in terms of talent. Red Bull would not have 4 drivers world championships if they had only Webber to rely on. F1 is about a combination of engineering and driver ability. At the moment, they have the perfect combination with Vettel.

Vettel's a briliant driver, end of.

As well as the drivers you've listed, Hulkenberg, Grosjean and [s]Britney[/s] Rosberg spring to mind. Button and Massa probably too.

I think what you're saying about Webber is a bit unfair. If you look back through the results, it's pretty much even stevens in 2009 and 2010, I think over time they've tuned the car to suit Vettel's driving style more.

OOI, when has F1 never not been (at least partly) an engineering contest. Isnt that the bit that gets all the piston heads frothy?

We will be complaining that cycling has become a medical contest next?!? 😉

Mark Webber has the same car as Vettel,

missing the point somewhat

Does anyone really think , given equal cars to Hamilton and Alonso that Vettel would have won 4 back to back?

To say it's al down to the car is disingenuous.

the difference between the top drivers is the car
No one knows if , given the same car, which one of the elite drivers would win and I doubt anyone thinks he would get 4
If you want to call this a sport and watch it feel free but I dont

I was never a massive Vettel fan but I have to take my hat off to him.

I think on current form he is the best driver on the grid and is set to become one of the true greats - if he isn't already.

He is the complete package, he combines the single lap brilliance of someone like Hamilton with the race craft and tenacity of Alonso. Its easy to say he only wins from the front but he has demonstrated on plenty of occasions that he can get the job done overtaking when he needs to.

Plus another ace he has that is often overlooked as that his team adore him. To truly dominate you need to build a team around you Vettel is doing that at Red Bull. Schumacher did it too at Ferrari.

All this and he is only 26, he probably has another 10 season in him.

missing the point somewhat

Not at all. Mark Webber doesn't have the talent that Vettel does. It was Vettel that helped Red Bull create an unbeatable car (Adrian Newey's genius not withstanding), not Webber. Red Bull favoured Vettel because he's the driver that has the ability to get every last ounce of performance out of a car, and the talent to know exactly how to make it go faster. Like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton. To diminish Vettel's talent by suggesting it's mainly down to the car is to ignore the fact that he is bloody brilliant, and way ahead of the average F1 driver.

So if we put Vettel in a Sauber he would win?

I believe he'd get better results than their current driver line up.

If you want 'equal' machinery, watch Formula Renault or something instead. if you want the pinnacle of driving talent and engineering endeavour, watch F1.

Minor point if order Mr Chairman, if he was genuinely on of the greats, there would be no doubt and no discussion shirley? Anyone with 4 WDC's would normally be considered 'great' by any measure but not SV, why?

For one, I was pleased to see more donuts and less finger waving yesterday, made him a bit more likeable.

What amazed me about the Indian GP was how fast Vettel went from 17th to 1st. It was pretty much blink and you miss it. I don't love the guy (I want to chop that finger off) but he's an amazing driver.

I enjoy F1 and agree with a lot of the above in giving credit to Vettel, but even I admitt the proessional aspect to this year has become a little boring. At least last year we had 7 different winners of the first 7 races or something like that, but this year the margin between RB and the rest is just huge, highlighted by some of Vettel's lap times in Japan.

Personally I reckon they should bring back refuelling and have competition between tyre manufacturers like when they had Bridgestone and Dunlop (or was it Michellin?).

I don't think you can blame RB for doing a better job than the other teams. They all follow the same rules, so the reason RB and Vettel win is because they're better then the other teams, which is the whole point.
If you want close racing, watch a single make series.

What amazed me about the Indian GP was how fast Vettel went from 17th to 1st.

Problem is unlike the old days when they would have raced, plenty of people in front of him were told not to race and let him go to preserve their own tyres. 😥

What annoyed me was the trick Williams FW14 car that was waay ahead of the competition. Without that car would Mansell have won his title?

I hated it when Lotus introduced rear wings in 1968, giving Graham Hill his second world title. And when they introduced the revolutionary monocque chassis in 1962, allowing Jim Clark to win two races that year and the World Championship in 1963. Booooo!

Problem is unlike the old days when they would have raced, plenty of people in front of him were told not to race and let him go to preserve their own tyres.

I remember that happening to Perez (who went on to give McLaren their best result of the season) but I'm not sure if it happened to anyone else, did it? I may be wrong. I like the way that there is loads of overtaking now. I think it makes it a lot more exciting to watch.

I know this is massively pedantic...

Perez matched Button who gave Mclaren their best result of the season 🙂 Don't like Perez, can you tell?

Not at all. Mark Webber doesn't have the talent that Vettel does.

The package is certainly better than his rivals but personally I doubt he could win 4 in a row if they had as good cars
Would he beat Alonso or Hamilton if they swapped teams?

Are you certain?

Let's not forget that Webber's had mechanical problems in the last 3 races too, which have cost him places at Monza and 2 DNFs, not really the whole story to say:

If the Red Bull is as far ahead of the competition as some might suggest, then why is Webber only 5th in the current standings? Considering he's a decent racing driver. Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonnen are in 'inferior' cars, yet are above Webber. To say it's al down to the car is disingenuous. If that were the case, then surely Webber would have been the 2nd best driver over the last 4 years?

I thought last year was good, interesting, this year hasn't been. Very dull, the successive tyre-saving processions do not make for good viewing.

To say it's al down to the car is disingenuous.

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

The package is certainly better than his rivals but personally I doubt he could win 4 in a row if they had as good cars
Would he beat Alonso or Hamilton if they swapped teams?

It would be much, much closer. It would be a lot more exciting.

Minor point if order Mr Chairman, if he was genuinely on of the greats, there would be no doubt and no discussion shirley?

I don't think there's any doubt in Germany. And if Vettel was British, there would certainly be no doubt here.

Let's not forget that Webber's had mechanical problems in the last 3 races too, which have cost him places at Monza and 2 DNFs, not really the whole story to say:

Vettel has consistently out-performed Mark Webber for the whole time they've been team-mates. He's simply in another league. No amount of highlighting Webber's 'bad luck' can cover this. How many times has Webber had pole, only to lose position at the start? Once Vettel is in front, he invariably disappears. Webber is a dependable journeyman who can deliver decent results, like Barrichelo, but he's not a great driver like Vettel.

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

I don't think anyone has actually said that.

Kona TC - Member
Mark Webber must be the unluckiest man in F1 at the moment, just goes to show luck is as important as driving ability and having a fast car of course

You think the order to stop a man in front of Vettel who is perfectly placed to exact his revenge with the opportunity for Vettel to win it next week, therefore not tarring him with the "you ruined his world championship" tag line for the rest of his life was based on luck?

Nope, it was clear even webber knew what was going on.

And ask yourself how Vettel clears 10 cars in 2 laps. Something's up.

Webber is rubbish at starts that's for sure.

Vettel has consistently out-performed Mark Webber for the whole time they've been team-mates. He's simply in another league. No amount of highlighting Webber's 'bad luck' can cover this. How many times has Webber had pole, only to lose position at the start? Once Vettel is in front, he invariably disappears. Webber is a dependable journeyman who can deliver decent results, like Barrichelo, but he's not a great driver like Vettel.

I don't think anyone suggests Webber is a great, but neither is he a journeyman, he just isn't in Vettels league.
A quick calc shows that webber has endured 4 dnfs this season, including Singapore. The four drivers placed above him in the table have only had one each. His average place finish for the 12 races he completed is 4.16. This would pop him up into third in the championship, above Hamiltons 4.9 and Raikkonens 4.67 average for the races they've finished.

As for those saying that if it weren't for the car etc etc, don't forget that the car is supposed to be the whole point of F1, the Drivers Championship is a secondary event. Of course.

I think what you're saying about Webber is a bit unfair. If you look back through the results, it's pretty much even stevens in 2009 and 2010, I think over time they've tuned the car to suit Vettel's driving style more.

The other thing to consider is back then, Webber was a bit younger, and possibly a slightly hungrier competitor. At the same time, Vettel was a lot less experienced, yet to hone what I grudgingly call his raw talent.

But, Piggy has highlighted Webber's very Australian fault - he's absolutely rubbish at getting away at the lights. I swear it's been bred into Australians to just sit and stare in wonderment and joy at the nice colourful lights, rather than actually planning to move forward once they change colour.

Vettel may be world champion but there is only one winner this season and that is Lewis Hamilton and this is the reason why........

[img] [/img] 😀

I posted this in the Gifs thread but thought the F1 fans may appreciate it as well.

I was just about to re-post that here. Brilliant!

Therefore to suggest it is all down to the driver is disingenous

Where had anyone suggested that? It would be nonsensical. F1 isn't nor does it pretend that it's all down to the driver. No Motorsport is, not one.

Spot on with the lights thing Zokes - that pesky green always manages to sneak up once the red's gone out and catch everyone out! Combined with the shortest cycle times in the world and you're doing well if one car makes it through before it's red again!

I've lost count of the number of times I've nearly driven through the car at the front of the lights as I'm ready to go and have started releasing the clutch, only to find that the guy in front is clearly transfixed by the fact that there is now a different colour where the red used to be. Either that, or all Australians are red-green colour blind.