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hols2
Just to think, the Big Three used to be Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams. Drivers used to fight for the privilege of driving a Williams.
On C4 yesterday they showed some first corner Sochi action (I think before the race) to show what might happen.
I think it was the 2014 clip, there was a Williams fighting for 3rd place which the presenters commented on. It seems like a long time ago (I suppose it was) since anyone would even consider a Williams making into P2 quali, let alone fighting for a podium!
the-muffin-man
Member
Have we done Williams retiring Kubica to save parts!……for the employees sake I hope Claire Williams sees sense and sells the team to Michael Latiffi.
Yeah that's not good, makes me wonder again if they've got problems with paying their suppliers.
No, the real reason they retired him, (as I was informed by the hardcore circle-jerking Kubica fans on reddit) is that they are purposely hobbling Robert's races so their big name British driver beats him... 😂
Yep, the boxing of Kubica's otherwise healthy Williams was an absolute shitshow, utterly shameful given the history of the team.
Kubica himself deserves a far sweeter epitaph to his F1 career.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I don’t understand the amount vitriol towards Vettel on here.
It was that finger to a degree. He knew it annoyed some people but kept doing it as was his right. But also he didn't show any skill other than an ability in his fast car to start on pole and then pull away out of DRS risks and then just stay there. With precious little sign of close racing ability.
The car is always part of a drivers results but I don't feel he had the ability to pull the extra bit from a car that Hamilton does.
But basically he came across as a cock. That's enough for me.
LeClerc is proving to be a right stroppy mare! Moan, moan, moan, whinge, boo-bloody-hoo - just shut the **** up and drive.
He's the new Alonso!
Believe me, there are a lot of current and former F1 drivers who have provoked ire for cocky behaviour and controversy. Vettel has had his moments on the track, but so have Piquet, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, et al. Whatever we might think as armchair experts, Vettel was good enough to forge a working partnership with Adrian Newey that earned him four WDCs. Since then he's won races and his feedback has in part enabled Ferrari to deliver an excellent car.
It's a fascinating situation at Ferrari that will cost the team points unless they manage the drivers effectively. The only way to resolve this is to either lay down team orders or to manage one or other driver out of the team.
Believe me, there are a lot of current and former F1 drivers who have provoked ire for cocky behaviour and controversy. Vettel has had his moments on the track, but so have Piquet, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, et al. Whatever we might think as armchair experts, Vettel was good enough to forge a working partnership with Adrian Newey that earned him four WDCs. Since then he’s won races and his feedback has in part enabled Ferrari to deliver an excellent car.
True. But I still don't like him.
But also he didn’t show any skill other than an ability in his fast car to start on pole and then pull away out of DRS risks and then just stay there. With precious little sign of close racing ability.
He is an annoying dick, but I think you underestimate his ability as a driver. I think it's fair to say he struggles when the car doesn't suit how he drives, but he didn't win four championships without being able to drive well.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I don’t understand the amount vitriol towards Vettel on here.
He is very good at developing cars.
He is poor at wheel to wheel racing for someone with so many WC. You hardly ever see a genius overtake from him.
He cracks under pressure and is forced into mistakes.
He drives immaturely and angrily - remember when he smashed into Hamilton under safety car? The dangerous re entry onto track the other week?
He isn't a team player (multi 21 seb, multi 21 seb).
He throws his toys out every time a better driver comes along into his team (Red Bull, now Ferrari)
Also, the finger.
I expect those team orders were issued to mitigate the risk of SC and CLC crashing out on the first corner with a hard defensive move from CLC.
Now CLC knows he won't get a place back so will race hard against his team mate. Not ideal for overall team dynamics.
LeClerc is proving to be a right stroppy mare! Moan, moan, moan, whinge, boo-bloody-hoo
I was just thinking that he's been the exact opposite
But also he didn’t show any skill other than an ability in his fast car to start on pole and then pull away out of DRS risks and then just stay there.
Is it time for that Curva Grande clip again already?
Go on.And put up the other ones too.
Meanwhile we'll go and find a few as well.
To be fair to Vettel, when everything’s how he likes it he’s fast and dominant: you can criticise him for not being in the top league when it comes to a dogfight—he’s been comfortably shaded by Ricciardo and Leclerc in the same car and by Hamilton and Verstappen in others—but there’s still a great deal of skill and commitment in getting into a team with a winning car that drive so the way you want it to, and then delivering. Alonso could wring everything out of an underperforming car and fight anyone through a corner, but as talented as he was, he never dominated, seemingly (to me) because he went about engineering his environment in the wrong way: getting Flav on side is quite different to making a team gel, and I even wonder whether the drivers who can drive underperforming cars beyond what anyone thinks they’re capable of are even well suited to helping develop an exceptionally high-performing car.
Vettel’s far greater flaw is his tendency to make mistakes. Not just recently, and not just when he’s in a car he doesn’t like: he lost Canada 2011 with a mistake, and he clattered Webber a couple of times. But in the past couple of years it’s been too much, almost like Schumacher’s comeback years at Mercedes where he not only wasn’t fast but kept driving into people.
Never said he wasn't a good driver. He is in F1, even Lance Stroll is better than so many others on the planet.
I'm mainly saying I simply don't like the persona he projects and can find little out there to make me change my view.
And I'm sure that is ruining his life knowing that...
...But in the past couple of years it’s been too much, almost like Schumacher’s comeback years at Mercedes where he not only wasn’t fast but kept driving into people.
TBH, I agree somewhat with this. Vettel's form has been a little "patchy" for want of a better word, whether it warrants a full comparison with Schumacher's return in 2010 is difficult to say but Vettel is only 32. I do think that last weekend's win re-invigorated him to some extent, but he's now fourth in the Championship and I wonder how much of his early achievements continue to motivate him six years after winning WDC number four.
I still don't get all the hate though, off track he comes across very well and seems as if he's a likable chap in contrast to Hamilton's aloofness.
I still maintain that he and Leclerc cannot be in the same team next season though.
Never said he wasn’t a good driver.
Well, you did say "he didn’t show any skill other than an ability in his fast car to start on pole and then pull away … with precious little sign of close racing ability"—which does sort of sound a bit like you're saying he's not a good driver 🙂
I mean, I'm saying I agree to an extent: his close racing ability isn't as good as a number of others. But I think it's too tempting/easy to focus on that very visible part of being an F1 driver and overlook the fact that, actually, the greater part of becoming a top F1 driver is not duking it out with other cars: it's building your career and your team such that you're in a situation where you don't need to be duking it out.
That said, I'll be the first to agree that he's not the most exciting driver to watch.
Good driver, not a great driver.
Everyone mentions his title wins but when you mention any specific events they are usually the bits where it goes wrong.
If we're talking excitement, no-one comes close to Grosjean. How many DNFs this year?
There are many unexplained mysteries in the universe. Perhaps top of that list is how Romain Grosjean is still in F1 for 2020.
when you mention any specific events they are usually the bits where it goes wrong.
He won a race in a Torro Rosso.
Maldonado won one in a Williams.
Minardi/Torro Rosso have one win to their name. Williams have multiple championships and came third in the constructors' championship a few years ago.
Maldonado’s episode of Beyond The Grid gives the context of that win. It was quite a competitive car, more so than Seb’s Toro Rosso. (Not to detract from Maldonado’s win, which was hard fought and well deserved.)
Anyway, if you think talking about specific events means you find the events where “it goes wrong”, all that says is that you’re only seeing the events where it goes wrong. You can equally pick any of the specific events where it didn’t go wrong.
People remember the unusual and the recent, which is why it’s easier to recall the specific events which contained Vettel’s recent errors and his few notable historical ones than it is to recall the many specific events when he delivered poles and wins.
Speaking of Grosjean, I had to chuckle when I saw this headline on autosport today
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146328/grosjean-calls-for-more-gentlemanly-driving
There are many unexplained mysteries in the universe. Perhaps top of that list is how Romain Grosjean is still in F1 for 2020.
Speaking of Grosjean, I had to chuckle when I saw this headline on autosport today
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146328/grosjean-calls-for-more-gentlemanly-driving/blockquote >
Maybe he likes being rear ended? 😁
Good driver, not a great driver.
He is, because of 4 overall drivers championship wins de facto; a great driver. You may not like the way he conducts himself, but you can't denigrate his achievement because of that.
nickc
He is, because of 4 overall drivers championship wins de facto; a great driver. You may not like the way he conducts himself, but you can’t denigrate his achievement because of that.
Posted 1 hour ago
No but I think it's quite clear that he is error prone under pressure and also cannot control his temper (the weighbridge incident at interlagos, baku '17, multi-21, numerous others).
For me he's a great driver, just not one of the greats IYSWIM.
Verstappen starting to complain, what's the odds of staying at Red Bull if Honda don't massively improve next year?
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/jos-verstappen-changes-lost-year/4551016/
Verstappen starting to complain, what’s the odds of staying at Red Bull if Honda don’t massively improve next year?
Mercedes will be needing someone to replace Hamilton, he's not going to stay fast forever!
Mercedes will be needing someone to replace Hamilton, he’s not going to stay fast forever!
They're covering their bases - Ocon, Russell and now Norris in the Mercedes management camp...
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/10/03/norris-to-be-managed-by-mercedes/
Interesting.
Mercedes will be needing someone to replace Hamilton, he’s not going to stay fast forever!
I can't see lack of personal performance being a factor in Hamilton leaving Mercedes, not for a long while. Wolff and Bottas have both expressed the opinion that Hamilton's still getting better. If he leaves it'll either be because the car's no longer capable of winning races or because he wants to move onto other things.
I think the main question is how much he cares about Schumacher's record for number of WDCs. At the end of this year it looks like he'll be one short of it, with a season left on his contract and a good chance at equalling the record in that time.
Now, maybe he doesn't care about that record, in which case I suspect he could well retire at the end of 2020. Maybe he's happy to equal it, in which case he'll leave his options open. But if he wants the outright record then he'll have to stay through 2021 at least.
If I were Mercedes I'd be playing some game theory, hinging on whether Hamilton is wiling to race in 2021 and where Verstappen wants to be that year.
If Verstappen is available then he's a champion in waiting who just needs the right car and if Mercedes are happy to take him then we're probably looking at a straight fight between him and Leclerc for that year plus a few more.
If he's not then I'd be looking at persuading Hamilton to stay for 2021 as a transition year: they'll benefit from his experience to develop the new car, and they can test his talk of loyalty in mentoring his successor, which will be either Russell or Norris depending on how they feel come transfer season next year. Would the prospect of eight world titles be too much to walk away from?
If Verstappen stays at Red Bull or takes Vettel's place at Ferrari and Hamilton also leaves then I think they're looking at having to roll the dice a bit with both Russell and Norris.
But would Verstappen go to Ferrari if Leclerc is there? On the one hand, Ferrari's stock is high at the moment and is unlikely to diminish next year, but on the other it'd be a risky move for Verstappen and a potentially disastrous one for Ferrari. It'd be back to Enzo's combative approach to drivers, which I doubt works at all in a modern F1 team.
So I think for 2021 either Russell or Norris will be in one Mercedes, and potentially both of them could be, but the intriguing bit is around whether Merc want them alongside Hamilton or Verstappen.
Nice little vid here from Honda, hope the race goes ahead.
That is a great video!!
@bez my thoughts also. As good as Hamilton is, F1 is a young'uns sport and Mercedes will have a very twitchy eye on the new talent that is starting to really shine through- they won't want to be caught napping and miss out!
Nobody watching this morning? Pretty good race. I think Leclerc should have has some sort of penalty after taking Max out. Good drive by Bottas.
how on earth has Vettel escaped a penalty?
I think lewis could have got to the end on those mediums. The team know it and so does Hamilton
"Lewis, this is Toto, difficult day today, but we've just won the constructors' championship for the sixth time in a row, thank you for the help and your support. Great driving."
"Congratulations guys."
I was watching - good race. Yes I think Lewis could have won but they had told VB that they would pit him so fair's fair. VB deserved the win and would have been very upset had Lewis stayed out.
Think Lewis was more upset about the fact he didn't get second rather than the win. And well done Mercedes on the 6 doubles. When Michael / Ferrari set all those records no one though they would be beaten and with good reason given the advantage Ferrari had in the tyre wars and their absolute dedication to a No 1 driver.
And babybgoode was happy because he is a Vettel fan and was delighted he held second so we're all happy 🙂
but it’s far fetched to claim that Verstappen’s met his match.
Four races on and Albon has scored more points than MaxV. I look like I know what I'm talking about 🙂
Max can be spectacular, he can also be a clot. Consistency is a strong antidote to that
Time will tell whether he matures into a 'Works' driver, or stays at the independents for the rest of his career; fading away like his dad did.
It seems stupid to have pitted Hamilton, by all means make him move over to let Bottas through, but Mercedes gave away a P2 with that strategy. Why give away track position on a circuit where you know how fast the Ferrari is in a straight line and how affected the Mercedes is when following.
don't think Bottas was ever going to catch Lewis for that to happen.
Verstappen getting all upset that someone "Verstappened" him in the race.
Have to agree with whats been said, Merc should of left Hamilton out, if Bottas managed to get within a couple of seconds of him then they could of swapped them around to make things fair for Bottas
Seemed stupid to pit Lewis so he would come out behind Vettel knowing that they haven't passed Ferrari on track since the summer break and every time they have been behind a Ferrari even with DRS they just dont have the straight line speed to get the job done
So Renault under investigation after a complaint from Racing Point, 12 page dossier submitted means that they have had an idea of something going on for a while.
Have to agree with whats been said, Merc should of left Hamilton out, if Bottas managed to get within a couple of seconds of him then they could of swapped them around to make things fair for Bottas
His tyres wouldn't have lasted - he was on Mediums which would have been about 30-35 laps old by the end of the race so Vettel on much newer tyres would have been able to get past him for 2nd place anyway.
He got fastest lap which is the extra point needed for Constructor Championship which he wouldn't have got if he'd have stayed out so that's a positive.
Still don't understand why Hamilton wasn't given a set of hard tyres at his first pit stop
15 second penalty for Le Crash.
Love listening Max moaning about being punted off with his track record.
Love listening Max moaning about being punted off with his track record.
Quite!
Still don’t understand why Hamilton wasn’t given a set of hard tyres at his first pit stop
There was a radio message where the team explained that the hard tyres were an unknown quantity but known to be considerably slower per lap. There were only a couple of the mid-runners using them, no other teams went near them.
rOcKeTdOg
Subscriber
> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146558/renault-ecusteering-wheels-sealed-amid-protest
Yeah that's an odd one. 12 pages suggests they have considerable supporting evidence. Wouldn't be like Renault to cheat though 🤔
I'm a bit slow on this but d oes this mean the Renaults were automatically adjusting brake balance as it went round the lap?
I’m a bit slow on this but d oes this mean the Renaults were automatically adjusting brake balance as it went round the lap?
That's what it sounds like. The devil is in the details, obviously.
Does it mean automatically changing over a lap, or per lap, as in it knocks it 0.01% rearwards per lap to counter the weight change as fuel gets used?
Wonder if they really did see it in the onboards or whether somebody grassed
Does it mean automatically changing over a lap, or per lap
Nobody knows the details, but it would seem more likely to me to be changing over a lap to adjust for changes in front and rear downforce. Other question is whether they were adjusting left-right balance, which is what Mclaren did 20 years or so back. I assumed that was completely illegal.
I think the brake bias has to be driver controlled, although I think there was a additional rule back at the start of braking energy recovery systems that allows for the rears to be automatically controlled as part of the system. Perhaps Renault's controls fronts as well?
Ah, yes, I forgot about the energy recovery side of things. I don't see how the scrutineers can monitor brake bias if part of the rear braking is coming from ERS. However, it must be really tempting for teams to try and find creative ways to cheat by employing the ERS in sneaky ways.
Questions about the legality of Ferrari's engine. Speculation that they have a system of controlled leaks of oil from the intercooler.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-engine-scrutiny-teams-fia/4559167/
That would explain a few things!
Disqualification seems a bit harsh!
Bloody hell, I expected something would be afoot after their ECUs and steering wheels were impounded. How many times have Renault nee Benetton courted controversy with software "ambiguities"?
Whatever punishment meted out by the stewards would have to be sufficient enough to make a point but to not cause havoc in Renault's board right now. As an engine supplier they're hugely important to the sport, even if they're currently only powering two teams for 2020 and one of those jumps ship for 2021.
Ooft! It seems a bit much. The engines operate to some sort of mapping: a couple of years ago or so Alonso's Honda engine mapping in Spa qually went dud towards the end of the lap because he was faster than expected so the engine wasn't in the correct state - seems like much the same idea to have the brake balance auto-adjust over a lap.
seems like much the same idea to have the brake balance auto-adjust over a lap.
Which is apparently illegal.
Ooft! It seems a bit much.
Not if they've deliberately raced an illegal car.
Unlikely that they've only used this in Japan but I assume that the protest only applies to the one event. Interesting that the system didn't contravene the technical regs but fell foul of the sporting regs. Very unusual for the team based at Enstone to be up to something dodgy...
Very unusual for the team based at Enstone to be up to something dodgy…
"If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin" as the saying goes. The challenge is always for another team to spot what they're up to and make a complaint to the stewards. I'm sure if you dismantled any of the top cars you'd find some interesting interpretations of the rules somewhere.
Agreed, so are the Enstone team just unlucky? Or just less 'powerful' than others? Possibly being made an example of.
It would be better for the sport if there were just fewer controls altogether. Stop, Go. Turn Left. Turn Right. Never mind engine modes, brake bias and all that nonsense. Same with radios. By all means have some sort of pit-to-driver notification system to replace pit boards but cut the rest and let the drivers race.
Max up in front of the stewards for not slowing after Bottas stuffed it.
Max's hearing has been postponed as the steering wheel system didn't show the yellows apparently. But stewards want to check video evidence, date etc.
He admitted he didn’t slow down in the press conference.
I used to like him but he’s turned into a bit of a dick.
3 place grid penalty and stripped of pole...what a bell end 😂
Should make for a good race though!
What a shame........
An angry Max in a quick car, could make for a great few opening laps!
yeah watch out Vettel and Hamilton, expect a Verstappen sized torpedo in the side of your car.
It's his own stupid fault. As usual.
He was in a right mood last year after just been beaten by his teammate. He'll be fit to burst today.
He’s an absolute cock end. Just watched the interview. The way he just says “doesn’t seem like it does it” after being asked if he slowed then just giggled is infuriating. There was a car stuffed in the barrier and he could not have give less of a shit. Lucky to get just get a grid drop IMO.
I reckon over the coming years he has a few World Championships in him, but I just cant warm to Verstappen. Just don't like his attitude and arrogance. I know there are plenty of arrogant drivers but he grates on me.
He has a very punchable face too.