And risk a Nico whoopsie into the side of his car? If all those safety cars and red flags didnt get 3rd and 4th close enough to have ago risking the win to play funny buggers wasnt going to do anything.
Verstappen was in a different class to everyone. Absolutely amazing driving. And he's 19. NINETEEN! Just amazing raw talent.
Hamilton showed his class as well, he would have been about a minute up on his team mate if it hadn't been for all the restarts.
Still think Nico is going to win though
I think, barring anything dramatic, it's going to land in the hands of Rosberg. He is one of the least enigmatic drivers in the pit lane. It's embarrassing watching him try.
I'll be an odd one as Lewis lost it through reliability, but a great fight back and exciting end of the championship.
A tenner on Max is well worth a punt I reckon, well worth looking at 5 times world champ too.
[quote=parkesie ]And risk a Nico whoopsie into the side of his car? If all those safety cars and red flags didnt get 3rd and 4th close enough to have ago risking the win to play funny buggers wasnt going to do anything.
Exactly, better just to open a gap then if you run wide or spin you have a chance to get going again without losing the place.
Max was awesome! What a talented driver.
Max did well but a late stop for fresh wets also made a massive difference in his favour. Comparing it to Donnington when everyone was starting from scratch is a bit off.
Shame rbr dropped the ball with their tyre strategy otherwise we might have had a proper title fight in AD.
LH just pulled away when Max tried to catch him after Max waltzed past NR. Great drive by Max just a shame he went to intermediates.
My heart was in my mouth when Raikkonen span on the straight, could have been a nasty one. Amazed by some teams switching to intermediates in those conditions.
Did anyone else hear Rosberg pre race asking his engineer over the radio how Lewis had his brake bias etc set?
An F1 Trivia Quiz moment to memorise from yesterday as well...
"In which F1 race did Lewis Hamilton start wearing a yellow helmet and finish wearing a white helmet?"
So Max was the devil the last race and a saint now? Reality is he was in the 2nd fastest car on the grid and with little to loose. Rosberg in those conditions was always going to go for a make sure you avoid trouble and get around for a solids point finish type race. Max had none of those concerns. There is no doubt he is good and will mature, but I'm not convinced he is as good as some of the hype.
Never rated Rosberg in the wet. How did Ricciardos race pan out to Max's? Tbh I didn't pay much attention to him but they seemed to be on similar strategies. I vaguely remember him saying he couldn't go full throttle on the straight due to visibility.
Anyone else think that Verstappen's accident will be a huuuuge one?
An epic drive yesterday combining talent and a willingness to put it all on the line. I still think it will end in tears at some point.
Anyone else think that Verstappen's accident will be a huuuuge one?
Thought he had it last year in Monaco when he piled it into Ste. Devout?
If Rosberg does take the title would he be the least popular F1 champ in history?
Schumacher's titles got boring, but most people appreciated his talent, if not the manner he went about things.
If Rosberg does take the title would he be the least popular F1 champ in history?
Nelson Piquet was a difficult person to like.
[quote=dragon ]So Max was the devil the last race and a saint now?
He drove a very clean race this week - especially considering the conditions would have given him a good excuse not to. A distinct contrast to last race which was standard MV fare. I'm not especially a MV fan, but have to admire his drive and can't think of any point where he was at all naughty - Vettel has no grounds to complain at all, every other driver on the grid including him would have driven the corner that way. If anything he gave more room to Perez than he needed to - he could have also legitimately driven him off the track, but because it made no difference to MV's speed he gave him space (in the Vettel pass, I'm not entirely sure if he could have made the corner tighter, but if he did he would have lost a lot of speed).
I'm wondering if that race was MV's coming of age - not particularly because of his pace and ability to use lines others weren't, but because he got a result without having to drive dirty.
I'll be very pleased to see Nico as World Champion. For the Hamilton Fans it will give the blinged one some more incentive next year won't it?
I don't get all the negativity to be honest.
I think Verstappen has injected some well needed life/excitement into a dull mundane sport. Long may his antics continue. ( If only to wind up the other drivers)
Nelson Piquet was a difficult person to like.
He didn't exactly go round making friends with the other drivers
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Nico won't be the least popular. Far from it. He's just not a stand out champ. His drives are consistent and careful. He's not a wheel to wheel nor is he a weather talent.
He's Mr consistent. Even Mika Hakinen can't be seen the same way and he was pretty consistent.
The closest that I can think of is Button.
It'll be interesting to see how Max develops. He's got character but he didn't have maiden season/fighting for the championship
[quote=jimw ]I don't get all the negativity to be honest.
For me at least it's mainly because he's undeserving. Quite clearly not the best driver over the course of the season - he's simply been in the best car. I note that LH hasn't been in the best car this year, because unlike NR's car his hasn't been reliable - that is the only reason NR will win the championship. I suspect a lot of people feel the same.
[quote=hora ]He's Mr consistent. Even Mika Hakinen can't be seen the same way and he was pretty consistent.
The closest that I can think of is Button.
Button would drive rings around NR - he has talents Rosberg simply couldn't dream of. Strangely enough he's also far from being mr consistent - on his day he is simply unbeatable by anybody else even if they're also on top form, but those days don't happen all that often (apart from when he was in a standout car).
This is the thing - I'm a Button fan, but happy to acknowledge that of those WCs currently still driving Alonso and LH are definitely better and Vettel might be, but NR isn't in the same league as any of those.
he's undeserving. Quite clearly not the best driver over the course of the season - he's simply been in the best car.
Why is that any more undeserving than Button in the Brawn, or Mansell in the Williams?
Still don't get it
At least both of those were better than their team-mate.
On that basis, NR will the most clearly undeserving WC ever.
I won't be acknowledging that Nico has won the WC title, but that Lewis has lost it.
It's down to the circumstances imo.
Cars alike, I'd say Nico would be a consistant 5th place driver.
Guessing who's best is pointless - it is what it is, whoever has the most points at the end of the year is champion, end of. Nico's good enough for Mercedes to put him in the car, they wouldn't give ut to a chump.
Whilst I don't entirely disagree I don't think it can really be said that NR would be undeserving. It's like saying Leicester didn't deserve to win the Premier League last season. They suffered remarkably few injuries (mechanical failure equivalent) compared to their rivals, and at times their rivals were all pretty pants too.
He won't be considered one of the greatest if he wins, no, but as is said, "the league table doesn't lie".......
One area Nico has beaten Lewis this year has been the start.
trademark - MemberI won't be acknowledging that Nico has won the WC title, but that Lewis has lost it.
It's down to the circumstances imo.
Cars alike, I'd say Nico would be a consistant 5th place driver.
Well yes, probably true, but the cars aren't alike and part of the game is getting yourself in the best car for the upcoming season.
Did anyone else feel a tinge of sadness for Manor F1 when Nasr came home in 9th.
Maybe they could give him back his own pit crew for the race?
Spanner in the works and spy in the camp are both phrases that spring to mind when you think about this situation. Even Lewis is still perplexed by this decision.
Switching pit crews would be unthinkable in motogp.
At least both of those were better than their team-mate.On that basis, NR will the most clearly undeserving WC ever.
How about Hill in the Williams? His team-mate made him look a bit second best.
Yep. If Coulthard hadn't had outrageous mechanical luck that year he'd have won. But he didn't.
If Rosberg wins overall the fair play to him, getting the car to the end of the race is part of the game. Mansell could have won overall in '86 but he didn't due mechanical but no one says Prost was undeserving.
Cars alike, I'd say Nico would be a consistant 5th place driver.
So if everyone had a Mercedes what would the actual pecking order look like?
Not sure on that basis Rosberg would even hang on to fifth
I feel sorry for Hamilton, he's had some bad luck this season with mechanicals. But having said that there's been a couple of races (Baku and Singapore) when he just didn't really show up all weekend. That's 50pts right there.
Nico's put the work in against probably one of the era's best drivers in the car that's widely accepted to play to his strengths...To say that he doesn't somehow deserve the win is pretty uncool.
getting the car to the end of the race is part of the game.
It is but the drivers basically have nothing to do with mechanical breakdowns.
Nico's put the work in against probably one of the era's best drivers in the car that's widely accepted to play to his strengths...To say that he doesn't somehow deserve the win is pretty uncool.
Yeah, if he wins it, then he's champion and that's that for me.
Arguments along the lines of "well, it's only because he's in the best car" are pointless IMO- I reckon half the field in many (if not most) previous years could have been champ if they'd been in the right seat.
That said, it seems pretty clear to me that Rosberg isn't quite up there in the top drawer and Hamilton is basically just better. I hope Rosberg hangs on though!
One area Nico has beaten Lewis this year has been the start.
Very true, retro 83.
I don't mean Nico is undeserving, just as a fan of F1 I'd rather he won it without needing Lewis' reliability issues, but then that, after-all, is F1 for ya ...
Glad it's gone down to the wire 🙂
It is but the drivers basically have nothing to do with mechanical breakdowns.
That isn't strictly true as different styles could cause the mechanical bits to wear differently.
If Rosberg wins he'll be classed in the same bracket as D. Hill, J. Villeneuve and K. Rosberg. Good enough to win it once but not great. The package of the team, car and luck play so much of a part in F1 that to be great you've really got to win multiple championships, even then it's better if you win with different teams or with a few years in between. Pretty much any driver could luck in on being in the right team when they hit a stellar year but they would still have to beat their teammate, like the last few years. Then it boils down to how they are perceived by their peers and Rosberg just doesn't get talked about in the same way as Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo or even Button and Raikkonen!
If Rosberg does win it he'll just be a pub quiz (or Pointless 😉 ) answer, not talked about by fans for the next 20-30 years.
Even Nico knows he won because LH had reliability issues and for no other reasonNico's put the work in against probably one of the era's best drivers in the car that's widely accepted to play to his strengths...To say that he doesn't somehow deserve the win is pretty uncool.
His win will be in the history books but it required the better driver to have failures he did not;he is a decent driver and nothing more than that
Disagree on Hill. He raced against better drivers than today, developed the Williams and arrived in F1 alot later than he should have. He was in his 30's remember.
His competition were cheating too.
Even Nico knows he won because LH had reliability issues and for no other reason
His win will be in the history books but it required the better driver to have failures he did not;he is a decent driver and nothing more than that
I think it extremely unlikely that will be his thought process.
You need an ego to do that job. Just look at LH for confirmation. or any of them TBH
it seems pretty clear to me that Rosberg isn't quite up there in the top drawer and Hamilton is basically just better.
I don't think even Rosberg believes he's better than Hamilton TBH. But beating one of the greats in this car..? Fair play to the fella, that's a hell of a entry on the CV that not many (and better drivers) haven't achieved against Hamilton.
Even Nico knows he won because LH had reliability issues and for no other reason
He beat Hamilton by 8 seconds into third at Singapore when Hamilton was in the lead in the points. That had nothing to do with mechanical or reliability issues, that was Hamilton not being good enough on the day. See also Baku, when Hamilton was a minute down in 5th, again that was nowt to do with mechanical issues.
His win will be in the history books but it required the better driver to have failures he did not;he is a decent driver and nothing more than that
His wheel to wheel stuff with Hamilton has been quite spectacular. Unfortunately he's not an exciting driver, on or off the track, and this isn't going to win him fans.
Hamilton is an exciting driver and a personality off track, personally I don't care too much for his off track shenanigans.
The points will say who deserves the championship, and it's points that win it and not how they got the points (Damon might beg to differ which I accept).
According to the Beeb it looks like Foul Old Ron is about to be put on gardening leave.
Looks like he has been forced to quit!
Bye Ron.
Don't slam the door to hard on the way out.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127123/dennis-steps-down-from-mclaren-role
He deserves ( grudging on my part I'll be honest-found him a bit arrogant) praise for his past achievments, but he obviously hasn't had any success in the past few years and clearly struggled with that concept.
"His wheel to wheel stuff with Hamilton has been quite spectacular"
You sure?
it will say who won itThe points will say who deserves the championship,
AGain no one outside Nicos family thinks he is the better of the two drivers[edited due to fair comment above]
There is no way, without LH have reliability issues, he can beat him in a straight championship race
Yes he is highly highly competent but he is not quite brilliant
yes he can occasionally beat him but overall he looses more often and he required LH machines to break and his not to to be championHe beat Hamilton
I dont really see any point debating this tbh its just true
Nico is not the best driver at Mercedes and had LH car been more reliable [ or his as equally unreliable] he would NOT be the winner
FWIW i am not a massive fan of the tax avoiding narcissist but he is a better driver than Nico
I'm sure that Rosberg hasn't lost that much ability hora, the gap between their abilities isn't that huge.
And look neither car got scratched, so they're both better than me.
He's not known as a wheel to wheel racer. He just turns into a driver. That's not hweel to wheel that's can't be trusted.
Without the 8 car breaks this season how far off Lewis would he be? Funnily Lewis was breaking him then Lewis's car mysteriously started breaking.
I dont really see any point debating this tbh its just true
No it isn't. You're wrong, sorry. 😀
In two races, Rosberg scored 50pts that put him into the lead of the champs that he's not relinquished, so it's as fair to say that he beat Hamilton as often as he benefited from Hamilton's mechanical issues. Rosberg won the first 4 GPs and Hamilton didn't win until the 6th GP. Hamilton was on the back foot right from the get go (it's testement to his talent that we're as close as we are now). Also don't forget that while Hamilton's has had 2 retirements, Nico has had one as well.
It's been close racing, and yes Hamilton will go down in history as a great driver, and Nico probs won't,but he's played a blinder this season.
True but Hamilton beat him more often than he benefitted from his car performance issues as he had far fewer than LH- Also missing out on practice and race and grid penalties.he beat Hamilton as often as he benefited from Hamilton's mechanical issues.
You can type what you like lewis's lack of reliability is what may win it for Nico rather than him being the faster driver
He wont ever win it without LH having bad luck as he is not the faster of the two of them
People still remember keke as a wdc, but not the fact he only just beat pironi despite pironi having a massive crash and missing the last third of the season. Keke only won a single race too, so in many ways could be called a less deserving wdc than Nico ever would be. The detail of the title will be lost over time, but the winner will always be a world champion.
He beat Hamilton by 8 seconds into third at Singapore when Hamilton was in the lead in the points. That had nothing to do with mechanical or reliability issues, that was Hamilton not being good enough on the day. See also Baku, when Hamilton was a minute down in 5th, again that was nowt to do with mechanical issues.
Nico wins when Lewis doesn't show up then, like at the end of 2015 season! 😉
Has Nico ever caught, passed, and driven away from Lewis?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37987396 ]It's official- Ron's out[/url]
Apologies, should have RTFT- didn't know it was old news! 🙂
Has Nico ever caught, passed, and driven away from Lewis?
Hamilton on pole, Australian Bahrain and Italian GP, winner was Rosberg in all three
so yeah, he has.
He wont ever win it without LH having bad luck as he is not the faster of the two of them
And yet, that exactly what he has been [i]this year[/i]. Nico is clearly not as good empirically as Hamilton. This year he's pulled a rabbit out of the hat. That's it, and he should be applauded for that.
Hamilton on pole, Australian Bahrain and Italian GP, winner was Rosberg in all three
All down due to Lewis bogging down at the start!* Not the same as chasing down and passing. The times he got close to passing his steering seemed to fail. 😉
(*another car issue that took months to sort out).
There's a few people on here that don't watch F1
😯And yet, that exactly what he has been this year
are you his dad?
haha, god I sound like it... 😆
I just think he's played a blinder this year against a team-mate that most people agree is one of the best GP drivers. Fair play to him.
that's it really.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, the [i]only[/i] qualifying criteria for being a deserving world champion is having the most points at the end of the year.
How about Hill in the Williams? His team-mate made him look a bit second best.
Prost (the four time world champion against Damo in his first season) and Senna (with just the three crowns)? Prost's 12 podiums in '93 compared to Damon's 10, Senna we can't compare, Hill beat DC in '95 by 20 points with one less retirement, and in '96 he beat Villeneuve by 19 with one [i]more[/i] retirement. I think it's a bit harsh to say anyone else in a Williams made Damon look a bit second best.
Yep. If Coulthard hadn't had outrageous mechanical luck that year he'd have won. But he didn't.
Genuine question - which year are you on about?
People still remember keke as a wdc, but not the fact he only just beat pironi despite pironi having a massive crash and missing the last third of the season. Keke only won a single race too, so in many ways could be called a less deserving wdc than Nico ever would be. The detail of the title will be lost over time, but the winner will always be a world champion.
See now, I'd say the details are massively important, I suspect you already know - Keke was the last atmo world champion of the eighties turbo era, so was racing with, what, 520 horsepower max against 600 or more (in race trim) for the turbo cars, no-one won more than two races that year (and there were eleven different winners!), and Pironi crashed out of Hockenheim running unnecessary hot laps in rain with terrible visibility having already qualified a mile in front, hitting the back of a slow-moving Prost (he was on pole by just under than a second). A horrible, turbulent year, two drivers killed in GPs and those bloody horrible ground effect cars that everyone was glad to see the back of, not least the drivers.
"If Coulthard hadn't had outrageous mechanical luck that year he'd have won. But he didn't." Did you watch those races? Again some on this topic don't seem to watch F1. I watched all the races throughout the 90's onwards.
Hill was a double champ. I remember Johnny Herbert being sour grapes about Hill and I remember thinking Hill actually arrived too late.
[quote=captainsasquatch ]www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_GWdS5RP0Q
I'm sure that Rosberg hasn't lost that much ability hora, the gap between their abilities isn't that huge.
And look neither car got scratched, so they're both better than me.
Can I check I've got this straight - you're using a race where a different strategy and a well timed safety car put NR on much faster tyres in a position to attack LH as an example of his skill at wheel to wheel racing? Remind me who won...
[quote=nickc ]
He wont ever win it without LH having bad luck as he is not the faster of the two of them
And yet, that exactly what he has been this year.
Let's just elaborate on this one. If you remove those races where LH has had a mechanical problem (not his fault) either in qualifying or the race, who has been the faster. You can also remove the races where NR has had mechanical problems if you like (of course the one race he didn't finish was all his own fault)...
BTW LH lost 25 points to NR at Baku and Singapore combined, not the 50 you seem to be suggesting? NR lost 26 points to LH at Austria and Germany combined following some classic NR racing at both.
hora - Member
"If Coulthard hadn't had outrageous mechanical luck that year he'd have won. But he didn't." Did you watch those races? Again some on this topic don't seem to watch F1. I watched all the races throughout the 90's onwards.Hill was a double champ. I remember Johnny Herbert being sour grapes about Hill and I remember thinking Hill actually arrived too late.
Coulthard did have a lot of issues I recall, Monza, Spa, Silverstone... he'd have been up there for sure without car failures.
Hill was a double champ in what?
Hill was a double champ in what?
I think he's suggesting Shumacher is cheaty cheater...
I have a lot of time for Hill; I think he is an understated, quality driver.
But even he admits that if Senna had not died, then he would not have won the championship when he did. Neither would Schumacher.
So luck plays as big a part for and against all drivers. When it's not going your way, you have to just suck it up.
But even he admits that if Senna had not died, then he would not have won the championship when he did. Neither would Schumacher.
Senna was already 20 points back after 2 rounds, not exactly a shoe-in for the Championship
Once Williams remembered how to set a car up without active ride, it was the class of the field. Only bettered occasionally by the illegal Bennetton.
Senna would have easily made up that deficit.
"If Coulthard hadn't had outrageous mechanical luck that year he'd have won. But he didn't." Did you watch those races?
Religiously.
Nigel Roebuck's take on Ron's seppuku - Roebuck might just be my favourite writer of all time.
[url= http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/rons-way?utm_source=Ron&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Nigel ]Ron's way[/url]
In the MTC Ron liked every rooms temperature set to 21 degrees centigrade as it was his favourite temperature. Likewise apparently he had silk carpet in his office and it was hoovered every 2 hours!
"So, to revert to the specificity of your question, I'm not going to hypothesise about what might have happened had we done things differently, because I don't think there's anything specifically wrong with the way we've done things."
Don't know that I would have wanted to work for RD, but he did keep things interesting.
"That $100 million fine; $10 million is for what you did, $90 million is because you are a ****"
Whispered by Max Moseley to RD in front of the press. Fantastic.
So Zak Brown is the new Ron. He might have timed it just right to ride the upswing if Honda can deliver next year.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38086172 ]Honer has a dig[/url] 🙂 It's an interesting one for the last race will they (Redbull) risk cranking the engines upto 11 and try and make a race of it.
I see Jenny B has changed his tune about retiring - I'd have thought Ron's demise would have made him more likely to stay seeing as Ron didn't want him back in the first place, but maybe it's cause and effect with his recent lacklustre performances. he was broadly keeping pace with alonso for the first part of the year but since the whole sabbatical thing he's dropped off, then those poor showings affect his desire to stick with it so his motivation drops race by race etc etc.
I see Jenny B has changed his tune about retiring
I always took the sabatical talk to mean...
"If Alonso drives the 2017 car in testing and decides it's shite, he may walk away from F1 and Jenson is signed as a back-up"
...and with Alono's current temprament it may happen!
Even if that doesn't happen, in a somewhat strange situation for a driver "retiring" he's still reserve driver for next year, so there's a reasonable chance this won't be his last GP (the McLaren reserve driver has got a race both last year and this).
Rosberg to win?
Was hoping Lewis would do it but the odds are against him