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It’s not a surprise that many in labour want brexit out of the way so they can start to rebuild.
Rebuild what?
“Out of the way” !!!!!!!
Out of the way, resolved, neutralised, done, whatever. The simple fact is that brexit has been the most difficult, divisive, and intractable problem for the labour party in it's history. It's been nothing less than an existential threat. It's very easy for remainers to say they should just support remain but it's not and never has been that simple, and continuing to deny that is plain fantasy.
Out of the way, resolved, neutralised, done, whatever.
And the only way that can happen is to revoke Article 50. Agreeing a WA guarantees at least 10 more years of uncertainty for business, and will kickstart a powerful movement to rejoin the EU.
It’s very easy for remainers to say they should just support remain but it’s not and never has been that simple, and continuing to deny that is plain fantasy.
allowing a pass for the hardest of rightwing brexits in complete contradiction to their own manifesto and party's commitments on brexit is hardly supporting remain
its giving the ERG and the hard right everything they ever wanted on a plate
Rebuild what?
Comrade, the rebellion will start. With the Red Left leading the charge.
It will be just like joyful times of Stalin.
At least in Jezza's fantasy world it will be, despite the annoying reality that (a) the British public voted for this pile of crap and (b) have been convinced it is a delicious steak and (c) it's springtime for HitlerJoris and GoebbelsCummings if this turd of a deal gets passed.
How are they going to rebuild anything when they won’t see power again for a decade at least? And when they are under a Tory government of a bankrupt country?
I think, and this is just IMO, that Corbyn recognises he is currently unelectable. And that the only way to shift the UK electorate to a position where someone like him would be electable is by the electorate being sold off to the right like cannon fodder. At which point the left would be able to rally back and hopefully win.
A price worth paying, short term pain (matter of perspective)for long term gain.
It will not be out of the way though. Now will come the real turbulence. Stuck in no man's land trying to negotiate deals from a desperate position. Now starts the years of being bent over and ****ed. This has just been foreplay so far.
I think, and this is just IMO, that Corbyn recognises he is currently unelectable.
And he's happy to watch the new, purified, Tory party torch the country, just to get elected. As much, if not more, dangerous than Boris & Cummings.
Also, hi from the ERG, you forgot us? No Deal is still on the table, kthxbye.
"Theresa May's backstop could have had us locked into that arrangement indefinitely. Boris Johnson has torn up that backstop which means that if the trade talks are not successful then we could [still] leave on no-deal terms."
So assuming at this point the deal is illegal... and there is a 2nd referendum...
How are remain going to get the support of those disabled hating homophobic mysogenists voting for Brexit because of this? (From FB today)
That didn't work ....
Even Simon Jenkins (who is a mite too old school tie for my liking) is parroting this “get Brexit out of the way” shit. The only way to do that is to call it off. This is never going to go away.
Fourteen months transition period? In the eyes of that arch bastard Cummings that represents around 60 opportunities to bleed out bits of bad news at an average of one a week. He will expect, rightly, that not enough of the electorate will join all the dots. Basically an empty fanfare this weekend, Boris enthroned and then continue to treat the public with the contempt they deserve. It has worked for them so far, why stop now? Any more unpalatable bits of truth will be declared ‘unpatriotic’ or ‘Project Fear’ or ‘wait and see, we can cope’.
And it is all so utterly, utterly pointless and unnecessary. At least the yanks weren’t stupid enough to make their petty little racist/xenophobic shit in nappy tantrum binding. They get to right their stupidity after five years, although with the seeds the GOC is sowing in the Middle East, the effects may well be more long lasting.
**** populism, **** stupidity.
is hardly supporting remain
Read my comment again, I never said it was. Remainers want labour to fully support remain, but they have never accepted the fact that they can't because the labour party is split across the divide. Yes it's mostly for remain, but there is a significant enough leave element to mean that if they were jettisoned then labour would never win an election. It's always been a no-win scenario for labour, no matter how people pretend it isn't.
The only way to do that is to call it off.
It's not going to happen. Get used to it. There was an opportunity to mitigate the worst elements of brexit, but that was rejected by remainers in favour of going all out for stopping it. This is what happens when you go for broke and lose. Although to be fair it's not lost yet, but looking likely.
This is what happens when you go for broke and lose. Although to be fair it’s not lost yet, but looking likely.
Oh yes it's obviously the fault of remainers instead of Labour letting their MPs got Johnson's hard right deal through...🙄
There’s enough of this sort of stuff circulating that surely even the most loyal Scots Unionists are beginning to realise our real position in this “family” of nations.
Like the brick, I think it rather sad that there are those who look to exacerbate division in order to further their own ends. Both the leave movements continue to have a great deal in common. 🙁
Operation “save the Conservative Brexit Party” is going surprisingly well… but it needs the support of Labour MPs to cross the line… will they be obliging? I might stay in and watch it unfold tomorrow.
BTW folks, just watch out for news from the Scottish Courts again today.
Possibly spokes in wheel job...
If the Labour Party can't oppose this with any conviction, which it looks certain it won't, then you have to ask yourself whether there's any point there actually being a Labour party any more?
Yep, for me this is the point that I lose any doubt I had that Corbyn isn't just full of shite.
I am pretty sure it will pass. For the reason outlined in the tweet above - it doesnt remove no-deal.
Plus labour rebels voting for it despite the fact that if it goes through BoJo will have a huge majority in the next election.
THe thing that gets my goat is that it seems peoples vote mps are sain this isnt the time to table a second ref ammendment. There porbably won't be another time you stupid fools. Why on earth wouldnt they table one????
If the Labour Party can’t oppose this with any conviction
They are. JMcD was on the radio this morning talking about how labour MPs should oppose it and he was going to talk to those like Campbell to persuade them. Corbyn has said he will oppose it and is whipping his MPs to do the same.
Yep, for me this is the point that I lose any doubt I had that Corbyn isn’t just full of shite.
I see we're back to the easy 'it's all that nasty Corbyn's fault' excuse again? It's quite pathetic to be honest. Brexit is happening because people seem to want it. Not because Corbyn is 'enabling the far right', or because he's not on the telly enough, or because he's not shouting loud enough, or because he's not running through the streets wearing EU underpants. It's happening because people voted for it, and if you believe the polls, are supporting the party promising to do it. It may be comforting to look for easy scapegoats, but it's not going to change things one iota.
Corbyn has said he will oppose it and is whipping his MPs to do the same.
but will not do anything to MPs who help Johnson get his hard Brexit & a landslide GE after it
I see we’re back to the easy ‘it’s all that nasty Corbyn’s fault’ excuse again?
I'm not coming back to it. I was never there. I have never been sure of him but have been willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think this is the end of the road. No amendment for a 2nd referendum? Mixed messages about whether MPs should vote against it?
He wants this to go through. He doesn't want a 2nd referendum. I hoped it wasn't the case but he is most definitely not on my side.
No amendment for a 2nd referendum? Mixed messages about whether MPs should vote against it?
1. The peoples vote campaign are saying there shouldn't be a 2nd vote amendment. Also if there was an amendment then this would involve MPs supporting the deal to achieve a 2nd vote. The whole reason an amendment is being held back is so that MPs can demonstrate their clear opposition to the deal.
2. He's said clearly that he opposes it, labour MPs should oppose it, and he'll whip against it.
The rest is in your head I'm afraid.
He wants this to go through. He doesn’t want a 2nd referendum. I hoped it wasn’t the case but he is most definitely not on my side.
The plain facts, and the things he has said repeatedly do not support your view. Believe what you want to believe though, there's very little Corbyn or anyone else can do if you refuse to accept the facts at face value.
So when will a referendum amendment be tabled? Isn’t this the last chance?
The peoples vote campaign are saying there shouldn’t be a 2nd vote amendment.
Yes, after Corbyn came out against it. If he backed it MPs would be voting on it on Saturday. He doesn't want it to be put to the people.
The whole reason an amendment is being held back is so that MPs can demonstrate their clear opposition to the deal.
Yes and the basis of his opposition is that there is a red Unicorn just over the hill. He knows there isn't but that doesn't matter.
2. He’s said clearly that he opposes it, labour MPs should oppose it, and he’ll whip against it.
ANd he's so committed to it that MPs who defy the whip are facing the possibility of... what exactly?
The rest is in your head I’m afraid.
There comes a point when you look at someone's record and say, 'Do you know what, I'm fairly certain this is what he's aiming for.'
So, if this deal goes through on Saturday, will it be due to Corbyn's intentions or his incompetence?
So when will a referendum amendment be tabled? Isn’t this the last chance?
A 2nd ref amendment will water down opposition to the deal making it more likely to pass. They've clearly come to the conclusion that they don't have the numbers to get a 2nd vote through, so it's not worth the risk of letting the deal go through. The whole point of holding it back is to INCREASE opposition to the deal.
... Johnson get his hard Brexit & a landslide GE after it
Oh no, no ...
No landslide for PM JoBo in the next GE.
There will be No majority for any party.
allowing a pass for the hardest of rightwing brexits in complete contradiction to their own manifesto and party’s commitments on brexit is hardly supporting remain
+1
Everyone’s against you DazH.
If any labour MPs vote for this and it gets through, it’s a sell out bigger than any sell out the Lib Dem’s have ever done. I will never vote labour again.
They’ve clearly come to the conclusion that they don’t have the numbers to get a 2nd vote through, so it’s not worth the risk of letting the deal go through.
They thought they would have the numbers until Corbyn came out against it. Cheers for that.
will it be due to Corbyn’s intentions or his incompetence?
it'll be down to the simple fact that there is a majority of MPs in favour of it. That's it. You do realise don't you that Corbyn doesn't have dictatorial control over his, or anyone else's MPs? You're going to blame him for not exercising a power which he doesn't possess.
it’ll be down to the simple fact that there is a majority of MPs in favour of it. That’s it. You do realise don’t you that Corbyn doesn’t have dictatorial control over his, or anyone else’s MPs? You’re going to blame him for not exercising a power which he doesn’t posess
He whipped for article 50. Why can’t he whip against a Tory Brexit?
Quit defending Corbyn, it’s clear to everyone that in his head he thinks he’s a red Frank Underwood.
No I will blame him for:
Three line whipping to trigger A50
Three line whipping against remaining in the single market and customs union
And the final nail in the coffin, doing his best to kill a 2nd referendum that could put this to bed once and for all.
Everyone’s against you DazH.
?
I agree with you FFS. Ronnie Campbell et al are idiots. It doesn't change the fact however that they will vote the way they have always said they will vote irrespective of what Corbyn, McDonnell or anyone else tells them to do. Threatening to remove the whip will have no effect.
I think this will sadly pass, last minute DUP uturn will mean v small majority pass the deal.
As a Tory this is just so gratifying to read 👍
dazh
Read my comment again, I never said it was. Remainers want labour to fully support remain, but they have never accepted the fact that they can’t because the labour party is split across the divide.
I think your idea of "the divide" is idealistic.
The divide of traditional labour supporters isn't so much BECAUSE of BREXIT but WHY we have BREXIT.
Let's face it Cameron had an internal Tory issue... and he foolishly put it to a referendum and he was relying on people in flat caps with matchstick cats and dogs and some miners to firmly squash the whole idea.
You can accuse Cameron of MANY things but being in touch with working class people is not one of them. He knew some Tory voters would vote leave due to "Sovereignty" ... but most would vote with self interest and remain.
What he totally failed to understand was how many normal working class people are simply hacked off with political correctness ... and that over more than a decade this has been cultured to be blamed on the EU. At the same time some of the traditional supporters were also left behind or certainly felt they were by Nu-Labour
Yet others voted for Leave because Cameron/Tory's were on the face it it remain...
binners
If the Labour Party can’t oppose this with any conviction, which it looks certain it won’t, then you have to ask yourself whether there’s any point there actually being a Labour party any more?
It's Corbyn's wet dream.... poverty and increased inequality across the UK....
His brand of socialism has always seemed more about relative inequality than standards of living for the poorest. Personally: I'm not really against the idea itself ... but I have as much faith in it being delivered as I have in Boris's bridge to NI or fusion in the next 5 years. Unfortunately I see the implementation simply making everyone poorer.
To be fair I also think Corbyn is a true socialist... he has lofty goals that would he would see global equality between Western Europe (and Isreal) and the current poorest parts of Asia and Africa... (and Palestine) ... and again perhaps but its another wet pipe dream...
Regardless ... if Brexit goes ahead I think Corbyn will get his wish of making everyone poorer and starving enough.
Summary: Cameron put party over country....but Corbyn is putting ideals over country.
All the Labour MPs who will vote for Johnson’s shitty deal tomorrow are Corbyn’s natural allies, his career-long, Bennite, anti-EU fellow travellers.
If he hadn’t inadvertently found himself as the accidental leader you can bet Jeremy the Brexiteer would be right there with them, voting it through.
Hence them all getting tipped the nod that it’s fine to do so.
Getting to do whatever the hell you like if you’re a friend of Grandads isn’t just restricted to being anti Semitic
I think Labour will do better in a general election if the deal goes through, it wont be a pure Brexit election so they will suffer less from their weakness.
He whipped for article 50. Why can’t he whip against a Tory Brexit?
Eh?
If the Labour Party can’t oppose this with any conviction, which it looks certain it won’t, then you have to ask yourself whether there’s any point there actually being a Labour party any more?
Forget the conviction, as long as they vote then that does the job.
You constantly embellish everything.
Labour will do well in an Election , people vote on lots of issues.
The idea of Corbyn being finished or a loser is bought about by people reading the polls they agree with.
On the ground he will do well.
My partner and I who enjoy a very middle class existence want to use our circles to push for Corbyn. Most don't get him and want to shoot him or something shit. But when you talk policies they are keener.
Happy to redistribute our wealth here under a Labour government and it will likely affect us personally.
Labour will do well in an Election
Define 'doing well'?
Winning a majority so that they can actually do something?
Or just a warm feeling of righteous justification, in (another) heroic failure, that they're right about everything and therefore morally superior?
Got to say, as a life-long voter I strongly opposed the labour part when they basically said everyone who voted for them in the GE voted for Brexit. I reluctantly returned in support, partly because I believe in their domestic policies, and partly because they represent the only real opposition to the conservatives and a strong leave stance.
There does seem to be a lack of commitment to ensuring this deal doesn't pass, which is especially significant when there is so little time for proper analysis and scrutiny on the details. They lost the leave voters a long time ago, and I think they'll lose a lot of remain voters if the deal passes via rebel labour MPs.
Fabulous. No wonder the government aren't publishing an economic impact assessment of Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal ahead of tomorrow’s vote.
Anyone wondering what my own view is on this, I tend agree with John Lansman. I’m sure the usual suspects will be along in a minute to condemn him as a 6th form idealist.
https://twitter.com/jonlansman/status/1185123427671248896?s=21
Do you agree there's a red Unicorn just around the corner?
I thought Lansman was against “parachuting in” candidates, and all for local constituency deciding the fate of sitting MPs? Glad he’s come around.
mefty
Member
I think Labour will do better in a general election if the deal goes through, it wont be a pure Brexit election so they will suffer less from their weakness.
polls say the opposite
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176087917149728768
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176096370702180355
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1176103416990437377
John Curtice on the BBC saying that this would give Johnson a boost at a GE
Ronnie Campbell is on Radio 4 now pointing out that he's 100% leave, will still vote the deal tomorrow and that he's consistently voted against every single piece of EU legislation, and pointed out who's been alongside him every single time he has...
Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell
If Johnson can simultaneously sell his deal as “we have a transition period to reduce the immediate impact, but at the end of that we can have a clean break from Europe” and also as “this is delivering on the will of the people, but limiting the damage, as we move towards a new strong relationship with Europe” depending on the audience/voters/MPs he is addressing, then in the short term at least, it’s likely to result in him taking back control of parliament, and a further rise in support for his party.
Polls based on hypotheticals are pretty unreliable
John Curtice on the BBC saying that this would give Johnson a boost at a GE
Not necessarily contradictory, Corbyn will be much less exposed to losing votes to the LibDems
Regardless of how shit or otherwise this deal is (and its shit) this is a tactical win for Johnson.
If he gets the deal through then he has "Delivered Brexit" and he can call an election with the Brexit party neutralised, resulting in a Tory majority.
If he doesn't get the deal through then he can label the opposition as traitors, saboteurs and ignoring the will of the people. Unlike last time it probably won't be the ERG stopping Brexit as it looks like they are mostly onside. He can distance himself from the DUP, who probably will vote against it, which given he has already thrown them under the bus isn't a stretch.
"I have no choice but to call an election. Vote for me and I'll deliver Brexit". Another probable Tory majority.
There are few ways to neutralise Johnson’s advantage here… if Labour were cunning, they’d be pushing to put this deal to the people, and let voters either be the block or the enablers. Perhaps they still will.
last minute DUP uturn
No chance the DUP change their mind. It destroys their entire reason for existence. It would be like the SNP voting against Scottish independence.
I may be underthinking this but:
- UK leaves the EU, however that happens, all EU Regs will cease to be law and so will be brought into UK law overnight as a oner - you can't redraw 30 years of legislation instantly. This happens either on 1 November 2019 or 31 December 2020.
- the government of the day then sets to work putting in new legislation to repeal the stuff they don't like and give powers to whatever policy objectives they want to pursue going forward.
- the Withdrawal Bill/Deal - whatever you want to call it - is for this transition period, until December 2020, to ease us through the more complicated stuff.
So, surely the government of the day gets on with what they want to do - what is in the deal is only transitional.
I just don't get how you can have a "for the workers" vs a "disaster capitalist" deal. All these things can be subject to UK law once we have left, whenever that is.
(for the record I am an enthusiastic remainer - just thinking it through)
I also still think the Sinn Fein might turn up and take their seats - just to really get one up the DUP. They have been doing press calls this week !!
You can have a Withdrawal Agreement that promises not to undercut the EU on standards (workers, environmental, food safety, animal welfare, whatever) even after transition. To a certain extent you previous Withdrawl Agreement did just that… and Labour would like an Agreement that went even further. Not only does it protect us, it makes a subsequent trade deal easier, quicker and likely be more in-depth.
I just don’t get how you can have a “for the workers” vs a “disaster capitalist” deal. All these things can be subject to UK law once we have left, whenever that is.
https://twitter.com/CommonsIntTrade/status/1184415663793889281
Mays deal had regulatory alignment for workers rights and environmental standards written into the withdrawal agreement, which makes that a legal commitment.
Johnsons deal has taken that out of the (legally binding) withdrawal agreement and put it in the political declaration instead, so there is no legal comeback and they can diverge from EU standards on both whenever they like
I wonder why they did that? hmmmmmmm.......?
I'm far from an expert either but,
all EU Regs will cease to be law and so will be brought into UK law overnight as a oner
The problem with this to the best of my knowledge is you cannot simply do this unilaterally. Any arrangements we have via the EU will need to be renegotiated with the appropriate third parties.
Like, say you get a 15% discount at your local bike shop because you're a Singletrack subscriber. You cannot then just cancel your membership, write "15% off!" on a Post-It and then expect the shop to honour it, the discount was negotiated with Singletrack not with you.
Now of course, it may be possible to arrange a similar discount with the shop yourself, you're a regular customer so they might offer you something but perhaps not as good because you don't have the clout of ST, let's say 10% off, but you'd have to go and negotiate that with them rather than just assume it automatically still applies. Y'know, make some sort of deal.
This is the unicorn in the room that the "no deal" brigade either don't realise or refuse to acknowledge. Go stand in your LBS shouting "you need me more than I need you" and see how far it gets you, they'll laugh you out of the store.
I also still think the Sinn Fein might turn up and take their seats – just to really get one up the DUP. They have been doing press calls this week !!
The Irish are happy to sign this deal and I'm sure they consulted with Sinn Fein. Even if NI officialy remains in the UK customs zone the deal puts it under EU customs responsibility and under ECJ jurisdiction. what's not to like for Sinn Fein? NI becomes more European and less controlled from Westminster than for hundreds of years. So not just to get one up on the DUP.
This is what happens when you go for broke and lose.
A lot of people are going to be broke, and not figuratively.
Shame, shame, shame on Labour MPs who run scared of racist constituents and enable this abomination.
At least they might feel a bit dirty, though. The Tories are almost climaxing right now, just reaching the vinegar strokes as they think about dismantling all those workers’ rights.....
Ironic, isn’t it?
The far right of the ‘Conservative and Unionist party’ have just made a bigger contribution to a United Irrlsnd than the men in balaclava’s managed in 30 years of bombings, shootings and punishment beatings
I also still think the Sinn Fein might turn up and take their seats
I read an interview with them a little while back on this very subject. And whilst a day can be a long time in politics, I have little doubt that this absolutely will not happen. Their reasoning for not taking their seats runs far, far deeper than anything as trivial as brexit.
Don’t know whether asking my leave army/raf brat friends whether all the dead squaddies were worth us just basically giving Northern Ireland back.
Or whether that would be going too far.
I get the feeling it might result in a bar fight.
Ah, here you go.
And I just found this, from a few weeks ago.
“Without getting into the argument about our mandate and the platform we were elected on, this day of all days when the British Government decided to set aside parliamentary interests, decided to ride roughshod over the Parliament and force their own position, then the argument that Sinn Fein should be sitting in there, as impotent as the rest of the MPs, I think is a nonsense.
“If they (the Government) have that regard for their own political institutions what regard have they got for Irish interests – and our clear view is they have none.
“Irish interests will not be defended at Westminster, they will be defended by the Irish Government, by the European Union, by the Americans on Capitol Hill – those are the people who are defending Ireland’s interests, it’s not being found in Westminster.”
So Sinn Fein smell blood again.
This is going to end well.
Labour should definitely call for a referendum on this deal. This deal vs remain and that's the end of it.
Hopefully if this deal doesn't go through thats an option
Hels, I believe most EU law (directives) are transposed into member state law, in the Uk’s case Acts of Parliament and Regulations. Therefore EU ‘law’ is effectively UK legislation anyway.
Directives may be transcribed in to UK legislation. EU Regulations aren't necasserily so...
Some EU law is by way of directive which requires Member States to introduce compliant legislation, but the vast majority is made by way of regulation and decisions which automatically apply in member states and it is those that will need to be brought into UK law.
dannyh
Shame, shame, shame on Labour MPs who run scared of racist constituents and enable this abomination.
ctk
Labour should definitely call for a referendum on this deal. This deal vs remain and that’s the end of it.
Hopefully if this deal doesn’t go through thats an option
Well, I'm hoping the same thing, the problem is apparentlythe traditional labour voters are "racist", "misogynist", "homophobes" (led by a racist) meaning we will need to rely on Tory's.
Of course we might find out later that the bloke calling his wife "Luv" was just a term of endearment and he doesn't hate ALL women or that Corbyn is really against the Zionist movement not actual Jews... and that REMAIN have been casting these terms around with abandon.
At some point in the distant future our children may sit with theirs (quite possibly in the ruins of a once proud nation) and they might find out that non of this EVER had ANYTHING to do with the EU...
Stevextc - hah! ****ing bang on there buddy. I like your brand of cynicism.
Gauke, Boles and now Sarah champion are now for the deal which gives fat boy a plus one majority
They can see the escape route… “a deal”… well, “their escape route”… we won’t have one if they let Johnson push on with this.
we won’t have one if they let Johnson push on with this.
I seem to be detecting a certain amount of realisation that this is actually happening. You lot didn't actually think it was going to be stopped did you?
The chance of getting a Soft Brexit has been very low for years, the chance of not leaving at all even lower. Your point is what @Dazh?
Politicians have taken a narrow win for Brexit and turned it into a mandate for a Hard Brexit. I have no idea why you keep cheering this on, while agreeing that it is damaging.
But in answer to you, I’m expecting Saturday’s vote to go the government’s way, yes. If the option of putting the deal to the public in a referendum was seriously on the table on Saturday, that might have succeeded, but I can’t see it now. Even if Labour come around now to trying to get the referendum, rather than trying to stop the new Withdrawal Agreement outright, I don’t think there’s enough time left to get MPs on side. Johnson has outplayed the opposition.