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Tell me about it! I follow Edinburgh and Scotland rugby and England cricket.
Polls are showing a clear majority for remain and have done for a while
Which is why a second ref is still unlikely for me. Taking back control? Only when it suits the vested interests, I’m afraid.
Woho just saw my first “Clean Break” on Facebook 🙁
I’m not sure how running away from everything is that clean thou but off it goes.
I suppose a clean break is preferable to a messy one in much the same way as if it were your arm.
More movement towards that a referendum sooner rather than later…
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1183333601695416321?s=21
Poor Tom, leading rather than following. We might look back and thank him one day.
I want to keep my arm.
I want to keep my arm
I can't believe you don't want one of those amazing bionic arms we will all get after brexit.
Watch for an all Ireland customs zone and GB being separated with the checks in the Irish Sea.
That would appear to be unlawful under one of the trade laws put together by Kate Hoey and some other headbangers from what I was reading earlier today.
I had no idea what you were on about then @Sandwich, I doubt I was alone. Is it this…?
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1182654816507564032?s=21
I can’t believe you don’t want one of those amazing bionic arms we will all get after brexit.
But they’re not offering any arms now it’s just about respecting the will of the people to break their arms.
lol boris has managed to stab himself in the back.
Please explain.
I have no idea what to make of any of this… if anything at all…
But this “customs partnership” looks more and more like something to be putting in place during transition, to avoid a backstop kicking in, rather than something that can act like a backstop, doesn’t it?
That's the one Kelvin. The PM is going to need a bigger shovel to dig himself out of the hole.
That’s the one Kelvin. The PM is going to need a bigger shovel to dig himself out of the hole.
I believe there is a bulldozer in Heathrow still waiting for him.
Funny that these rushed thru bills actually creating more hassle.
For me that’s going to be the whole issue with ‘Brexit get done’, the details are as ever are being overlooked and down the line are going to have unforeseen issues playing out.
They’ll be forever extracting themselves from issues of their own making.
Welshfarmer, do you reckon that would work, personally I wouldn't object, but a lot of tories didn't think he was impartial toward the end of his tenure.. Any caretaker needs a commons majority, so he'd have the same issues as corby going for caretaker, no? Maybe not as devicive as corbyn, but it's not a clear run I wouldn't have thought?
I think Bercow would probably carry enough moderate tories to make it work. He stands more chance than Corbyn. Although it is a shame it has become public knowledge now, it would probably have been better if his name had come to the front during negotiations. I expect the tory front bench to ramp up the propaganda against him now.
I'm cringing at the pomp and ceremony around the Queen's speech
It's 2019 and we have a time critical negotiation ongoing that could make or break the UK, but lets all have a big pause while some cosplayers have a big game of dungeons and dragons and the queen gets to wear her sparkliest crown. Absolute nonsense.
The whole thing is a complete farce, anyway. As soon as any of this goes before parliament, it'll get voted down as Joris Bohnsn is so far short of a majority. Then we're straight into VONC territory, parliament is dissolved and we'll have a general election.
So today is essentially a party political broadcast for the Tory party, hosted by her maj, as she reads out the Dominic Cummings election manifesto for when we shortly go to the polls
Polls you say? Guy down the pub said people voted Brexit to get rid of the Polls.
Binners - no necessarily. Queens speech is no longer considered a confidence motion since the FTPA so losing the vote is essentially meaningless. Its clear the opposition are not going to go for VONC now - not until the threat of no deal is gone.
Losing a vote on the queens speech changes nothing
I think we can all agree that a VONC will have been called within a matter of weeks, thus rendering this whole charade completely pointless.
Well... not entirely pointless from Johnsons point of view, as it was essentially a manifesto launch for the coming election, read out for him by Liz, with all the pomp and ceremony that gets the Mail reading fraternity welling up with nationalist pride
I expect a VONC as soon as the letter to the EU is sent.
From Tom Peck thismorning on the Queens speech, I lol'ed...
Traditionally, of course, these things, like Tory budgets, fall apart within hours of delivery.
This one is pioneering in its way, given that it arrives pre-collapsed.
So - where are at now?
Johnson to get a new deal, that'll most likely be voted down, for not being Labour's deal or Brexity enough.
He will then in theory have to send a letter to the EU to request another extension. Presumably they'll comply?
Or will someone say enough is enough, piss off Britain?
I think a bit of pomp and ceremony is the least of the issues parliament currently faces.
I was quite disappointed by the absence of a Spitfire flypast
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I think a bit of pomp and ceremony is the least of the issues parliament currently faces.
You're wrong. It actually underlines and reinforces what is fundamentally wrong with the way parliament operates. Watch this
So – where are at now?
Johnson to get a new deal, that’ll most likely be voted down, for not being Labour’s deal or Brexity enough.
He will then in theory have to send a letter to the EU to request another extension. Presumably they’ll comply?
Or will someone say enough is enough, piss off Britain?
Of course they will comply, extending things forever is the EU's key skill.
The snag will be that after the letter has been sent to request an extension (satisfying law) a subsequent letter will be sent by Johnson saying he doesn't want an extension.
I'm not so sure, now. Prior to the last couple of days I've been convinced they're determined to crash us out. But there seems to have been a great deal of rowing back from the Cummings threats last week as that pesky 'reality' business has intruded on proceedings.
Even Rees-Mogg, interviewed on Pienaars Politics yesterday, was backtracking on previous statements, particularly about the backstop and the Irish Border and sounding considerably more conciliatory.
I think it's finally dawned on even the ERG headbangers that Ireland is part of a large trading block with a lot of clout, that puts it in a much stronger negotiating position that the UK, so they're going to have to wind their necks in a bit
Who'd have thunk it?
Whatever happens, we're no doubt be in for a VONC first thing in November and a general election
Heard on the radio just now, Parliament has the ability to reject the Queen's Speech. But if they do it'll be the first time in over 100 years.
The whole thing would be absolutely fascinating if I lived in, say, Canada.
Whatever happens, we’re no doubt be in for a VONC first thing in November and a general election
I was thinking that was very likely, ‘till you said the words “no doubt”, and now I’m half expecting something else to happen instead. The Binners prediction curse.
Fair point 😀
In the same way, a stopped cock tells the right time twice a day, I think I may be right on this one.
I just can't see any other outcome
Corbyn is absolutely itching to lose another election so he can retire from the job he never wanted in the first place
The snag will be that after the letter has been sent to request an extension (satisfying law) a subsequent letter will be sent by Johnson saying he doesn’t want an extension
I think if he does anything to frustrate the intent of the Benn act and the request for an extension he will be considered in contempt of the law. There was quite a lot of discussion about this by lawyers and that seemed to be the consensus. He can't just pay lip service to an act of parliament.
a stopped cock tells the right time twice a day,
Six o'clock presumably.
I think it’s finally dawned on even the ERG headbangers that Ireland is part of a large trading block with a lot of clout, that puts it in a much stronger negotiating position that the UK
Say what? I thought they needed us more than we needed them. I just don't believe it.
It's all getting a bit Freudian, isn't it PP?
It’s all getting a bit Freudian, isn’t it PP?
My mum seems to thinks so....
😂😂😂
The snag will be that after the letter has been sent to request an extension (satisfying law) a subsequent letter will be sent by Johnson saying he doesn’t want an extension
From the Benn Act - read it that hes legally bound to request and accept an extension. (IANAL)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/26/enacted/data.htm
edit (my bold)
Duties in connection with Article 50 extension
(1)If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00 pm on 31 October 2019 to the period ending at 11.00pm on 31 January 2020, the Prime Minister must, immediately after such a decision is made, notify the President of the European Council that the United Kingdom agrees to the proposed extension.
(2)If the European Council decides to agree an extension of the period in Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019, but to a date other than 11.00pm on 31 January 2020, the Prime Minister must, within a period of two days beginning with the end of the day on which the European Council’s decision is made, or before the end of 30 October 2019, whichever is sooner, notify the President of the European Council that the United Kingdom agrees to the proposed extension.
Six o’clock presumably.
Dunno, I saw something on a Wish ad that could hold 12 o'clock.
Looks like the DUP have finally put their few brain cells together and realised that Johnsons plan involves a border int eh Irish sea so will vote against - and thats all the excuse the ERG need to vote against.
Ironical isn't it that this bunch of far right nutjobs might stop brexit completely!
DUP Brexit spokesman Sammy Wilson, when asked about Commons Leader Jacob Rees-Mogg saying is willing to “eat his own words” and back a customs plan he once branded “completely cretinous”, responded: “Whatever appetite he has for his own words or whatever, we will not be eating our own words. Our position is clear, the government knows what our position is and we will not be dining from a different menu.”
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1183673365359411200
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1183681136045776899
Parliament has the ability to reject the Queen’s Speech.
Surprised this isn't being talked about more. With a majority in the minus 40s, Boris can't be totally confident that his QS won't get voted down.
Is it convention that the QS is not opposed?
Is it convention that the QS is not opposed?
I think it is more that to be in the position to give a QC you normally have a majority either by yourself or in coalition.
Be curious to see what happens but since, beyond increasing Johnsons lead in consecutive losses, its not overly significant not really much importance to it.
Is it convention that the QS is not opposed?
Just vote it down.
I like entertainment me.
Be curious to see what happens but since, beyond increasing Johnsons lead in consecutive losses, its not overly significant not really much importance to it.
I thought it would be the equivalent of a VONC if a sitting govt's legislative plan is defeated in this way?
I thought it would be the equivalent of a VONC
My understanding is it is but isnt.
In the past it would have been a very strong hint to give up and try again but now with fixed term parliaments it isnt. Basically an scenario we havent been in before for several reasons and so very difficult to figure out.
Is it convention that the QS is not opposed?
That has not been my experience.
"How Brexit marks the end of the British story"
Long but very interesting read. Got to it from Cougars link above.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/ac-grayling-on-brexit-1-6322238
this popped up n the grauniad live feed posted for the non grauniad online readers
You might be interested to know that there would be a practical consequence for the government of losing the motion on the address completely (as opposed to losing on an amendment to it).
Standing order 51 says that the government can’t move a ways and means resolution without notice unless the address has been agreed to. What this means is that if the government fails to get the address through the house, it can’t bring in emergency tax changes, e.g. to beat avoidance schemes, without letting the world know first, which might be very inconvenient in current circumstances.
Perhaps more important, that standing order could be amended by the house to say that the government can’t bring in a budget at all until the address has been passed, something it might do if Boris Johnson loses a vote on the Queen’s speech and then refuses to follow the convention that prime ministers defeated on the Queen’s speech should resign.
Looks like the DUP have finally put their few brain cells together and realised that Johnsons plan involves a border int eh Irish sea so will vote against – and thats all the excuse the ERG need to vote against.
Ironical isn’t it that this bunch of far right nutjobs might stop brexit completely!
Ah but he doesn’t need them, it’s tight but he could just scrape the votes up to get his deal passed.
Borises main objective now is to hold the Tory party together brexits a secondary issue.
Those thrown out Tories will more than likely vote for the Tories and there were 18 or 19 Labour voting against the whip.
The erg will fall in line as it’s gonna be no Brexit otherwise as a referendum prior to election will sink their dreams and some of them have cushy jobs now.
A small technical delay to finish the details probably wouldn’t hurt Boris as he has gasp secured a deal and Brexit is ‘Done’ even this delay may be averted thou if they fiddle it.
The irony is that Mays deal will finally limp thru but Boris will win the kudos points 🙂
even at that its scraping it - and if those labour mps actually vote for brexit they should be hung drawn and quartered. Utter idiots. Kinnock junior is their leader FFS!
Is it convention that the QS is not opposed?
That has not been my experience.
I know what you mean. But if I agree with you, it means you're wrong.
Borises main objective now is to hold the Tory party together brexits a secondary issue.
Is it?
Surely Boris's main objective is Boris. Brexit is tertiary at best.
Not only, https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/buckingham-palace-on-boris-johnson-and-queen-s-speech-1-6321772as above
but also...
See Private Eye 1506 Court Circular
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/news (this won't work for long, if it even works at all)
"Private audiences between Brenda and Johnson may become not so private, with suggestions they should be recorded in some form and stored in the archives just in case. And it is possible that a very reluctant Brenda might be talked into using her untested reserve powers to act in a crisis by dissolving parliament or sacking the prime minister."
On second thoughts, worth quoting in full before it disappears...
news
A gov supreme
Court Circular , Issue 1506
BRENDA, Baroness Hale of Richmond, was rendering another Brenda ( for those not in know - Brenda = ER in PE speak, Brian = Charles) a constitutional footnote, the monarch was busy elsewhere. So convinced was the Queen that her commands are inviolable that she didn’t even bother to tune in to the supreme court judgement. Her senior officials, gathered around the television, were not so convinced.
“Trust the prime minister,” a Number 10 bigwig had assured the Queen’s private secretary, Edward Young. That was enough to send him rushing for the regal legal eagles. So they had been warned that the government had made such a hash of presenting its case, and thus defending the monarch, that anything was now possible.
Power shift
When Number One Brenda was finally informed of the other Brenda’s judgement at the daily 11am briefing, residents of Royal Deeside might have heard a small explosion. At worst courtiers thought Johnson would be found guilty of fibbing to Her Majesty, who would then be required to sign some document reinstating parliament or, possibly, head to London for an emergency state opening.
But having to tell Brenda R that Brenda H had ruled that her proroguing of parliament was “unlawful, null and of no effect” and that power to recall lay with John Bercow was not much easier. Let alone that Hale also said the documents signed by the monarch “in her own hand” were as meaningless as “a blank piece of paper”. According to the judgement, neither prorogation nor royal assent are a “proceeding in parliament”, which effectively discounts the principle that the monarch is integral to it.
Call of duty
Johnson’s phone call with Brenda later on Judgement Day was similarly perplexing. He had part-blustered, part-charmed Brenda into believing his vision of a prorogational paradise and presented her with legal opinions to back up his case. But lawyers can be found to argue black is white if someone is paying them to.
Brenda bowed to Johnson’s demands because she had no choice. But it is the job of prime ministers to protect a monarch who has no voice, and that is what Johnson failed to do. Worse, he didn’t even try very hard.
The palace had assumed that Johnson’s phone call, with officials listening in on both sides, would consist of an apology and a request that she return to London to accept his resignation. But no. Despite briefings to the contrary from Downing Street, Johnson merely told her he “deeply and sincerely” regretted the supreme court’s decision… and that was it.
New order
Things look set to change now that the Supremes have sung. The palace will not indulge Johnson so readily in future. A normal state opening of parliament this month has been made almost impossible: what if Lady Hale and her colleagues were to conclude that the Queen’s Speech, too, was written in invisible ink?
Private audiences between Brenda and Johnson may become not so private, with suggestions they should be recorded in some form and stored in the archives just in case. And it is possible that a very reluctant Brenda might be talked into using her untested reserve powers to act in a crisis by dissolving parliament or sacking the prime minister.
Brian may well welcome this rubbishing of the royal brand as justification to do things differently when his time eventually comes. That’s assuming that Brenda Hale, her heirs and successors, haven’t confiscated his crown.
Flunkey
Surely Boris’s main objective is Boris. Brexit is tertiary at best.
Yep definitely but I get bored borisplaning.
Good article there poopscoop, AC Grayling utterly skewers the British in that.
AC Grayling utterly skewers the British
I agreed with almost everything in that article, but it didn't skewer the British population, just the Governments. I suppose you can say it's the people's fault for voting for them, but not all of us did.
It’s a rollercoaster of a week…
https://twitter.com/brexit/status/1184115779513569280?s=21
…perhaps best to ignore all this ‘till Saturday.
and then, what are the chances of Mays Deal v1.1 being voted through by MPs not under the control of PM Cummmings?
and then, what are the chances of Mays Deal v1.1 being voted through by MPs not under the control of PM Cummmings?
Well… any new deal is likely to be the deal May agreed to before the DUP scuppered it… that is NI staying in both Single Market and Customs Union ‘till a trade deal is arrived at that (together with new tech and procedures) makes it unnecessary. This never got as far as parliament for MPs to vote on it. Instead what was cooked up and voted on to appease the DUP prevented the quick new deals with USA and, er, Belize that, to some, are the point of Brexit. That got voted down multiple times for being “not real Brexit” and tying us into EU common external trade policy for, well, possibly forever. So… ignoring that the DUP won’t buy it, can a majority in the commons be found for the original “real Brexit for England, Scotland & Wales … leave NI behind for now” if Johnson sugarcoats it and threatens mad stuff if they don’t take it?
[ I should probably make it clear that I think “Real Brexit” is a disaster for anyone not in a position to take advantage of new deals with dodgy regimes. And, as a group of nations, we can never use these new deals to come close to replacing the economic actively we stand to lose, or pay for the increased costs of trade that we will be faced with. ]
Greybeard, it starts right from the outset skewing the British
Whatever the outcome of the Brexit debacle - whether the UK leaves the EU or remains in it, or soon returns to it, or survives as 'the UK', or splits into two or three separate states - the debacle itself is already a mark of closure, an ending, to something that has been integral to one major stream of British self-identity.
This was the belief, lingering after the end of empire, in the superior nature of everything British: The character of the people, the institutions of the state, the contributions made to world science, thought and culture, and the globally dominant English language itself.
You can’t talk about a nations self identity without indirectly referring to it’s people.
It’s not politicians who create a nations self identity, it’s the people - politicians simply exploit it.
Brexit is still a stupid idea. Always was, is and always will be.
Back to the original backstop it is.
Boris has thrown the Dup under the bus and then reversed and crushed them a bit more.
The EU might agree to that, but how's he gonna get that stinker through parliament?
DUP will vote against, SNP will, lib dems will, most of Labour will, some tories and tory rebel floaters will..
Or is it just a continuation of the toxic people V's parliament narrative they are desperately pushing?
I thought someone on here said that this was illegal ?
Dunno who, but I guess due to the GFA, Irish people, probably particularly those in NI have the right to be Irish, British or both.
If NI is annexed, then surely that's denying those who so choose, equal rights as British citizens?
Maybe it's just more noise from Johnson /Cummings...
Laws need changing, yes @zippykona… but the same is true for any deal. Lots to do… we we’re unlikely to be leaving this month unless it’s a car crash no deal with rushed post exit legislation implemented by bypassing parliament.
rushed post exit legislation implemented by bypassing parliament.
How can the minority government legislate without parliamentary consent? It's the basis of how our country operates surely?
Not disagreeing with you I'm just trying to identify loop holes.
Parliament has already given the government the power to change any law to facilitate the running of the country if Brexit happens. Go back a few years in this thread and you’ll some of us complaining about that power grab, with others saying we were making a lot of noise about nothing.