Forum menu
Scottish Court will sit on 21st October to consider sending the extension request letter if the PM doesn't.
to paraphrase he said
you have to invent or repeat stuff about him
You’ve been doing this for years TJ… putting the words you want to hear from Corbyn (often exactly what I’d like to hear from him as well) into his mouth, and claiming to speak for him, when he is carefully chosen not to use those words.
If he has recently said “I have been persuaded that staying in is right”, it would be good to see/hear him say those words… it might help garner some trust with those voters lost to other parties that we really need to win back to voting Labour down here.
Cougar, that’s unusually knee-jerk of you…unless I’ve mis-interpreted.
I was just asking a question in what I thought was an irreverent fashion. Maybe my sense of humour falls flat sometimes.
There can be social and economic issues as a result of migration from within the same country, and that’s clearly nothing to do with racism.
I hadn't really considered that, and you're right of course. But I'm fairly confident that when most people complain about immigration they don't really mean someone moving to London from Birmingham. Unless they're of a rather swarthy complexion, anyway.
He said that during the referendum campaign - I cannot remember the exact words but that was the gist and I cannot be bothered googling for it as none of you want to hear.
Oh, 2016… well many MPs said that back then… when they thought Remain would win… and are now fully gung ho about Brexit. What does Corbyn say now about being in the EU?
In a speech in London, Mr Corbyn said: "We, the Labour Party, are overwhelmingly for staying in, because we believe the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment.
"But also because we recognise that our membership offers a crucial route to meeting the challenges we face in the 21st century, on climate change, on restraining the power of global corporations and ensuring they pay fair taxes, on tackling cyber-crime and terrorism, on ensuring trade is fair with protections for workers and consumers and in addressing refugee movements."
I still believe the European Union has all the shortcomings I've relentlessly pointed out over the years, but ultimately I'm an internationalist, who believes in collective solutions – and my new friend Yanis Varoufakis says the best way to make the case for change is to stay.
He’s a Brexiteer. Always was. Always will be.
That’s why he was absolutely determined to scupper the vote, at conference, for Labour to campaign for remain in the event of a second referendum (which he also has a rather questionable commitment to delivering). What was orchestrated to prevent it happening was an old school stitch up with Len McClusky and the union block vote. And it was planned and deliberate.
Just reading in the Grauniad that Uber-Corbynite and rabid Brexiteer Carrie Murphy has been moved over (by Grandad) to head Labours election strategy team, so anyone hoping for a less Brexity approach will be out of luck. It still looks like Red Unicorns are the way forward.
Dom and Dommer will be delighted to see that, as more former labour voters sigh with despair and look towards the Lib Dems
Daz - does that look like the actions of a party leadership that can be trusted on Brexit to deliver what their MP's, members and voters overwhelmingly want?
You say Corbyn is the only way to try and prevent Brexit. Any objective analysis would conclude he is absolutely nothing of the sort
Have they got time to vote down the Queen’s Speech, go through the normal VONC procedures, set up an interim unity govt?
Calling a VONC, winning it, and setting up a new govt could be done in 3 days. All it needs is a majority in the HOC to pass a queen's speech following the defeat of the govt in a VONC. For that the lib dems and tory 'rebels' will have to forget their fantasies about changing the leadership of the labour party.
Was that quote from 2016 TJ? What does he say now? Something like that, but with the addition that the 2016 vote won’t be ignored, explaining why we should stay in the EU, but that voters would have to have the final say in a referendum, would be very welcome. When he does speak about Brexit these days, he seems to want to sound agnostic about the EU… which just means no one trusts him. His ‘constructive ambiguity’ since 2017 isn’t helping the country find a way forward.
fantasies about changing the leadership of the labour party
Change the record Dazh, you’re sounding like an astroturfer.
The caretaker PM doesn’t have to be the leader of the Labour Party.
But I’m fairly confident that when most people complain about immigration they don’t really mean someone moving to London from Birmingham
I imagine you're right, but I was just trying to highlight that many of the concerns/issues/challenges are equally valid for internal migration, so it doesn't necessarily have to be borne of a racist standpoint and there can be genuine concerns about the impact of immigration that are entirely divorced from the origin of said immigrants.
Are people calling for an end to UK internal movement? If the same issues surround that, why aren’t they? The answer seems obvious.
The caretaker PM doesn’t have to be the leader of the Labour Party.
There is a route to ensure the prevention of no deal that will take a matter of days, or they can start complex cross-party negotiations to agree a new PM candidate. 3 weeks and counting! Which do you think has more chance of succeeding?
And what would you have them oppose? Brexit? Given their electoral base?
Well on the basis that 65% of Labour voters were in favour of remain, then yes.
He’s a Brexiteer. Always was. Always will be.
No it's not that clear cut.
He voted remain and campaigned for remain. Why bother if you're a Brexiteer?
Reluctant remainer.
But yeah you have your polarising glasses on.
Well on the basis that 65% of Labour voters were in favour of remain, then yes.
But the critical seats are leave.
Change the record Dazh, you’re sounding like an astroturfer.
The caretaker PM doesn’t have to be the leader of the Labour Party.
Why doesn't it? Who decides who that should be then?
(He has to repeat himself because it's not going in!)
He voted remain and campaigned for remain. Why bother if you’re a Brexiter?
I'm far from alone in believing he did neither.
He did, however, come out about 3 seconds after the referendum result was delivered to demand article 50 be triggered immediately. With more enthusiasm than anyone has ever seen him muster for anything, before or since
Any objective analysis would conclude he is absolutely nothing of the sort
Let's see that analysis?
I’m far from alone in believing he did neither
Well who am I likely to believe - Corbyn or Corbyn detractors?
That isn't hard.
How are you unpicking that from racism, out of interest?
Immigration can be abused. For just one example if you let agencies bring large numbers of temporary workers in from other countries to work cheaply you can both abuse them (because they are isolated and at the mercy of the agency) and drive the general labour market downwards too. This is clearly bad for both parties.
Now - you can put a stop to this without restricting immigration generally - you can just ban that kind of practice whilst still leaving the doors open for people to come and find work alongside everyone else.
He did, however, come out about 3 seconds after the referendum result was delivered to demand article 50 be triggered immediately.
That's not the same as voting for Brexit.
Lots of MPs voted A50 - and they go on record as it was with reluctance - but few were comfortable with not respecting democracy etc. They also were also blinkered at the time as to how difficult it was going to be.
There's a lot of hindsight stacked up there.
Maybe you could concern yourself with how to fix this now?
But the critical seats are leave.
Given that labour supporters in leave marginals overwhelmingly back remain or a second referendum, that’s misguided as well.
Don't believe that all all.
I live in a Labour (close at 2017) and 70% in favour of Brexit at the ref.
Mansfield also went from Labour to Tory in 2017.
There is no way 'we' are not moving toward the Brexit party or Tory in our area.
That article in the independent is just research. It doesn't prove anything.
Maybe you could concern yourself with how to fix this now?
Now? Probably too late. As recently as last month at the Labour Conference the “party” voted to decide on policy as regards the EU after the next general election, while chanting the Leader’s name. Is there a path through this without the leader of the second biggest party being central to it? Probably not. So we’re probably screwed now.
few were comfortable with not respecting democracy etc.
But an absolute direct democracy and parliamentary sovereignty are in opposition, you cannot have both. Either "the will of the people" is supreme or parliament is. Which is it to be?
(Spoiler: we already have one of those.)
But an absolute direct democracy and parliamentary sovereignty are in opposition, you cannot have both. Either “the will of the people” is supreme or parliament is. Which is it to be?
Doesn't stop someone feeling uncomfortable about something. New territory and all.
Many MPs have said as such.
Maybe you could concern yourself with how to fix this now?
I've been looking to the Labour party, despairingly, for the last 3 years to help out a bit on that score. But all the labour leadership have done is given the Torys a helping hand when they needed it in parliament to deliver the hardest of Brexits outside the single market and the customs union (as three-line whipped by Jezza himself).
They're still doing the same now
Rome, you believe your own non objective intuition over cold hard data?
Biased much?
But all the labour leadership have done is given the Torys a helping hand when they needed it in parliament to deliver the hardest of Brexits
That's not the case is it really? Facts don't bear that out.
Yes, they do. Labour leadership three line whipped against… oh what’s the point.
is it safe to assume that they’d also be against people having babies?
I would suggest it would depend on how many babies eg Johnson levels or an average person levels.
I think the same would apply to immigration. The new countries joining the EU was very badly handled by Blair.
Of course there is the minor detail that the hotbeds of brexiteers dont tend to overlap that much with the areas of high migration with a few exceptions.
Any objective analysis would conclude he is absolutely nothing of the sort
irony metre has just blown up there.
Rome, you believe your own non objective intuition over cold hard data?
Biased much?
Do I believe what is on my doorstep versus an article in the Independent/You Gov Poll you mean?
Yeah I do. I'm happy to be accountable though.
Have a dig around in here.
He voted remain and campaigned for remain. Why bother if you’re a Brexiteer?
Reluctant remainer.
And a reluctant half arsed campaigner for remain.
That’s not the case is it really? Facts don’t bear that out.
• 3-line whipped his MPs to trigger article 50
• 3-line whipped his MPs to vote against remaining in the single market
• 3-line whipped his MPs to vote against remaining in the customs union
Everything else is just fluff. Those three things right there are all that matter. Mark Francois or Bill Cash couldn't possibly have done more than Corbyn to deliver brexit and land us in the mess we're in
And you wonder why labour voters have deserted them for the Lib Dems?
He's not voting remain because he wants to remain he's voting remain to oppose the government in classic "oh no it isn't" politics style.
Where did he say he was voting Remain?
That article you've linked to is written by who? A PFJ/Corbynite student at Lancaster University? Its absolute claptrap!
The Labour party is going to win a majority by capturing Leave-voting, presently Tory constituencies? Seriously?
Jesus H Corbett! I've read some crap in my time, but that's on another level altogether
In amongst the rest of the utter drivel - and it really is utter and complete drivel - my favourite little gem was:
In Scotland, Labour needs to gain 18 seats from the SNP. While some of these Scottish seats are very strongly Remain, others had a stronger Leave result than is generally understood.
So they're going to capture 18 seats in Scotland from the SNP by trying to out-Brexit Boris? Good luck with that!
Actually... is this guy presently in charge of labour policy-making?
irony metre
I've started using my imperial irony yard in preparation for the rejection of the european metric system.
Calling a VONC, winning it, and setting up a new govt could be done in 3 days.
I thought there was a period in which the de-confidenced PM could seek to 'regain the confidence' of the House. 14 days? Maybe that doesn't apply if your Queen's Speech is chucked out.
the LSE article completely ignores the brexit party ltd, Johnson by chasing No Deal has managed to slash BXP ltd's vote
a huge mistake to ignore that, Farage has been very successful in providing labour leavers with a 3rd option for those that would never vote Tory
hard to say how it breaks down by region but 2017 labour voters now just as likely to vote farage as Johnson
theres no way Labour can hope to out brexit farage or Johnson
it also misses that Labour got over twice as many votes form Remainers as Leaversin 2017, I like many others assumed theyd eventually come round to offering a 2nd ref & backing remain (contstructive ambiguity etc)
I thought there was a period in which the de-confidenced PM could seek to ‘regain the confidence’ of the House. 14 days
My understanding is that the 14 day period is simply a window following a succesful VONC during which the opposition parties can seek to form a govt. All they have to do to achieve that is gain the necessary votes to pass a queen's speech. If they do that the PM must resign (or be removed by order of the monarch) and the new PM is invited to form a govt by her Maj. If the opposition parties fail to form a govt in the 14 days, an election is automatically triggered.
must resign
You mean should resign. And this is where it all gets messy, testing out our ‘constitution’ in a time limited fashion, when the incompetent incumbent PM and his hired brain don’t care about norms and responsibilities. I fully expect he can be removed quickly enough, but also fear it will win him votes, as the processes needed will so easily be painted as ‘undemocratic’, not only by his allies, but also by many who wish to see him as far away from the centre of power as possible [oddly].
I half expect the courts to be involved and Johnson to be left sitting in no ten shouting " I am the PM" while a new pm gets on with business and gets an extension
I fully expect he can be removed quickly enough, but also fear it will win him votes, as the processes needed will so easily be painted as ‘undemocratic’
The only person who can remove him is the queen. If the brexiters turn against her then maybe there is some good to be had out of brexit after all? 🙂
Shrewd move by the Scottish courts today.
If they ruled today it could go either way, but if boris doesn't comply with the law, as he asuured the court, the court will basically have no choice but to rule against him and find him in contempt of court.
I assume that's their thinking. Wait out the 19th, then if needed pull the trigger, so to speak.
It's all gone very quiet from the rebel alliance. You have to hope they have the VONC all sewn up and ready to deploy.
I half expect the courts to be involved and Johnson to be left sitting in no ten shouting ” I am the PM” while a new pm gets on with business and gets an extension
👍
Be preferable if he was left in a padded cell wearing a straight jacket shouting "I am the PM".
What is the sanction if Boris doesn't comply and is in contempt of court? Yes, he has to request an extension but I've not heard exactly what his punishment would be - is it contained in the Benn Act?
What is the sanction if Boris doesn’t comply and is in contempt of court?
I think it would be for a court to decide. Maximum 2yrs in prison and or unlimited fine.
Yeh contempt of court caries actual criminal penalties, as opposed to contempt of Parliament which doesn't really.
No one is above the law and all that.
Parliament can make new laws or amend them, but i can't see boris getting a bill trough parliament to get himself off the hook at all, never mind as quickly as he'd need too to avoid charges.
I think it would be for a court to decide. Maximum 2yrs in prison and or unlimited fine.
Ha! Out on good behaviour 1 day on probation due to political motivation.
Unlimited fine pay by the party.
Popularity sky rocket.
Job done.
3 term as PM.
😂
Ha! Out on good behaviour 1 day on probation due to political motivation.
Unlimited fine pay by the party.
Popularity sky rocket.
Job done.
3 term as PM.
Hah.
You can't serve as an MP, never mind PM if you've done jail time.
Doesn't matter if it's a one day sentence or 5 years.
Just look at that labour MP who got found guilty of avoiding a speeding ticket by trying to say someone else was driving.
You can’t serve as an MP, never mind PM if you’ve done jail time.
Yes, I know that but the rules can be changed, hah!
Remember Parliament sovereignty?
You will have a "criminal" PM 😂
Yes, I know that but the rules can be changed, hah!
Lol, yes they can. As I said about 2 comments previously ...
Parliament can make new laws or amend them, but i can’t see boris getting a bill through parliament to get himself off the hook at all, never mind as quickly as he’d need too to avoid charges.
Boris is up shit creek right now. And he's outsourced his paddle manufacturing business.
Just look at that labour MP who got found guilty of avoiding a speeding ticket by trying to say someone else was driving.
That was Chris Huhne and he was a Lib.
That aside, you can stand for election with criminal convictions:
Imprisonment and court decisions
1.10 You are disqualified under the Representation of the
People Act 1981 if you have been convicted of an offence and
have been sentenced to be imprisoned or detained for more
than a year and are detained anywhere in the UK, the Republic
of Ireland, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, or are
unlawfully at large.
1.11 The nomination of a person disqualified on this basis is
void, and the (Acting) Returning Officer will reject their
nomination paper.
1.12 You are also disqualified under the Representation of the
People Act 1983 (as amended), if you have been convicted or
have been reported guilty of a corrupt or illegal electoral
UK legislation is
published by the
National Archives and
is available on
www.legislation.gov.uk
However, at the time
of writing, there were
outstanding changes
not yet made by the
legislation.gov.uk
editorial team to the
House of Commons
Disqualification Act
1975. If in doubt, you
should seek your own
independent legal
advice.
UK Parliamentary by-elections > Great Britain >
Candidates and agents > Part 1 of 6
5
practice or of an offence relating to donations. The
disqualification for an illegal practice begins from the date a
person has been reported guilty by an election court or
convicted and lasts for three years. The disqualification for a
corrupt practice begins from the date a person has been
reported guilty by an election court or convicted and lasts for
five years.
Criminal records (2017)
Request
How many current members of the House of Commons have criminal records? I would like figures please.
How many former members of the House of Commons had criminal records when they were MPs? Once again, I would like this information in figures.
If there are MPs that hold criminal records, what crimes are they for?Response
How many current members of the House of Commons have criminal records? I would like figures please.
Information on how many MPs currently have criminal convictions is not held by the House of Commons. Members are not obliged to provide this information to the House of Commons. The information you require may be held by the Police and you may therefore wish to consider submitting your request to them. The contact details of the various Police Forces are available online or from any public library. Alternatively, you may wish to consider contacting the individual Members concerned to ask for the information you seek; contact details are available on our Parliamentary pages. However, Members of Parliament are not public authorities for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act. This means that they are not obliged to respond to requests made under the Act.
How many former members of the House of Commons had criminal records when they were MPs? Once again, I would like this information in figures.
Some information is held by the House of Commons. Information on former members of the House of Commons is already publicly available from the parliamentary web pages.
As the information you request is reasonably accessible to you otherwise than under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA) your request is refused. In refusing your request the House is applying the exemption set out in section 21 (1) and (2) (a) of the FOIA. This is an absolute exemption and the public interest test does not apply.
If there are MPs that hold criminal records, what crimes are they for?
As explained above, the House of Commons holds limited information about the criminal records of Members, because they are not required to report this to the House of Commons. This is already detailed in our response above. We suggest that you redirect your request to either the Police, or individual Members themselves.
Remember Parliament sovereignty?
You mean the parliamentary sovereignty that the courts upheld? What's your point caller?
You mean the parliamentary sovereignty that the courts upheld? What’s your point caller?
Slowman the law can be changed if there are enough MPs vote for it to be changed in the Parliament. The court just have to obey. Then it can be changed again ... again ... again ...
That was Chris Huhne and he was a Lib.
Also Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough MP and she was Labour
Also Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough MP and she was Labour
Cheers Nick, I was talking about Fiona/Peterborough labour MP
Slowman the law can be changed if there are enough MPs vote for it to be changed in the Parliament. The court just have to obey.
True.
However.. Can you really see parliament voting for that!?
Boris has a negative majority of about 40 MPs.. I've lost count
Not a snowball in hells chance hahaha!
Unlike the English courts if Johnson does not put the letter in the scots court has the ability to do it in the queens name. So one way or anther that letter is going in. nobile officium
Interesting decision from the court - its basically a threat. do it or we do it for yo and find yo in contempt. they have cleared space on the monday to hold the hearing
Having promised to the court that he will do it Johnson would be on a very sticky wicket if he did not. Jail is more than likely IMO.
True.
However.. Can you really see parliament voting for that!?
Boris has a negative majority of about 40 MPs.. I’ve lost count
Not a snowball in hells chance hahaha!
Everything is possible cos those in the Parliament are weird people 😄
Who is this Yalland then?
You can’t serve as an MP, never mind PM if you’ve done jail time.
Yes you can.
You can remain sitting as an MP even if they are currently in prison. A recall petition is automatically triggered but still needs the votes against them.
They are disqualified as a candidate if they are currently sentenced for more than a year but once served you can stand again with the exception of some electoral fraud crimes which adds a few more years.
Its unclear if sentenced for more than a year whether, if the recall petition doesnt pass the threshold, whether they could remain as an MP.
Keep reading down, grahamh, Yalland goes on to post a lot of brexity bollocks about Norway, FTA conditions, a Europe divided on those conditions, EU reform... .
He's still a Brexiter:
But I’m not a “remainer now”. I’m a “remainer FOR now” which is massively different.
I’m disassociating myself from this Brexit, not my principles which are that Brexit is best for the U.K. and the EU.
He's just a Brexiter that doen't like comparisons between Merkel and Hitler. And completely deluded as to what is acceptable to the EU.
Cost of EU Membership? What about the economic benefits?
Those were pointed out yesterday, £15 billion in red tape for companies under brexit, that makes that bus figure look a bit sick.
Even more interesting is the Standard poll of polls that suggests the appetite for leaving has waned somewhat.
Ok I was wrong about convicted criminals being able to me MP or PM. Sorry about that.
But.. Possibly more importantly
How could a serving prime minister be able to serve if he/she is found guilty of
1) breaking the law (Benn legislation) by not sending the letter.
And
2) contempt of court (if he refuses to honour his promise to the court) under (1) by not sending the letter.
Blimey, an apology! Didn't see that coming...
On a point of order - I do not think Westminster can change scots law. they could try to make a new law UK wide that superseded it but the supreme court would be very interested in that I would have thought.
Its going to pee off the English nationalists even more if a scots court puts the letter in. Tee hee
the appetite for leaving has waned somewhat
Bin this Brexit Boondoggle ASAP.
Blimey, an apology!
It's meaningless as they already put it out. It's already all over social media.
Apologies are easy, words are cheap.
It's just lip service.
How can Johnson say that he will not campaign on a no deal platform for the next election when its clear he cannot get a deal without moving a long way from where he is?
How can Johnson say that he will not campaign on a no deal platform for the next election when its clear he cannot get a deal without moving a long way from where he is
Because the truth is completely irrelevant now
Politicians only have to say what they want people to hear even if they have no intent of doing what they say.
How the **** did we need up here?😕
Because the truth is completely irrelevant now
Indeed. Look what Johnson said Brexit could be, and what it was for, in 2016.
Look what he said he would do, and not do, to get MPs to vote for him to be leader this year.
He will say whatever needs saying to win the next stage.
Delivery is irrelevant to him.
Also Fiona Onasanya, Peterborough MP and she was Labour
Oh, I totally forgot about her! Now you've reminded me I'm at a loss as to how you could forget that story. Apologies...
Keep reading down, grahamh, Yalland goes on to post a lot of brexity bollocks about Norway, FTA conditions, a Europe divided on those conditions, EU reform… .
He’s still a Brexiter
Nobody said he wasn't. I think the point is more that the kind of crap Leave.EU are pulling is over the score even for true believers.
It’s meaningless as they already put it out. It’s already all over social media.
Apologies are easy, words are cheap.
It’s just lip service.
Indeed, especially when it is done with a wink and a nod that means ‘the PC brigade made us do this, you know what we really think’.
Goebbels used to do similar things.