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1) Refusal to engage in an actual discussion, ignoring anything I say in reply and instead changing the subject with non sequiturs in every successive post.
2) Personal attacks, insults and abuse.
3) Abrupt disappearance from the thread.
Exactly my experience.
The instant I post an actual fact to debunk their nonsense, it's the usual claptrap of "it's happening, get over it", "we voted for no deal", "WTO now" and other platitudes
We're 3+ years down the line and I've yet to hear a single response from Brexiteers that's made me go "they're right about that". Absolute nonsense at every turn, especially when you try to engage in a proper discussion
The instant I post an actual fact to debunk their nonsense, it’s the usual claptrap of “it’s happening, get over it”, “we voted for no deal”, “WTO now” and other platitudes
You’ll get this as they have nothing else,It’s the FB poison all you get is the same repeated rhetoric.
I would reckon 80%+ of the Leavers I have tried to engage with on Facebook
And there’s the problem. Talk to them in real life, not on the internet. People are different on social media, it’s a mechanism for having a no-consequence argument. The vast majority of people are able to discuss things in real life and respectfully disagree. I bet if you went for a pint with them it would be a completely different conversation. In actual fact most people can’t be arsed talking about politics. I’ve been down the pub with a few from here who I argue with and it’s never been an issue. Christ I reckon I’d even manage it with Rayban.
How will they circumvent it though? What mechanism? I think No.10 must be rattled from whats beeing siad over the last few days.
What’s the point of giving us an extension when we won’t budge on the NI position?
I’m expecting Boris to do something that will get him back into the courts and he’ll arse about causing a delay so we drop out.
I bet if you went for a pint with them it would be a completely different conversation.
Unless it was a Wetherspoons.....
I saw some intersting polling today that shows labour have gained remain voters but lost leave voters in about a 2:1 ratio
this is pretty much what I expect from the move towards remain and a second ref ( which we all know means remain)
Labours problem is 3 things:
A party and electorate hopelessly split over europe
the difficulty in presenting a nuanced proposal
the constant propaganda being pumped out in the press
As for national polls - on this topic complete nonsense as we all know there will be such strong regional effects that you cannot extrapolate from national polls to seats
finally - Johnson is playing to his core vote and to brexiteers. Its not enough to gain him a majority and note those pools above do not incude brexit party splitting the brexiteer vote
Labour problem is summed up in two words: Jeremy and Corbyn.
And there’s the problem. Talk to them in real life, not on the internet.
I don't actually know very many at all, the ones I do are acquaintances at best.
I guess that says a lot for my historical quality control in choice of friends. (-:
Labours problem is 3 things:
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1181585075282087936?s=21
I dunno. Horrible MSM or something. Or, [dazhsplain]most voters don’t think about politics and the working class heroes I’ve chatted with over a pint when I’ve deigned to commune with them from my guilt ridden middle class perch just want to get Brexit done.[/dazhsplain]
What’s the point of giving us an extension when we won’t budge on the NI position?
Because of what comes after an extension. Election, 2nd ref?
99.9(recurring) percent of my interactions have resulted in one of three things:
My experience is totally opposite as they are willing to engage with me.
Most of those that I spoke to are working class people with perhaps one or two in middle management. Can't speak to the top management coz I am just a low ranking nobody.
All hail the killfile. 🙌
*ignores* 😉
Those issues would remain no matter the leader of the labour party.
all that poll shows is my point 2
Labour moving to rmain has lost them significant voters and gained them a few more. there is no position they could adpot that would prevent this
The need to be strongly remain for the cities and scotland. They need to show that they accept the remain vote in the northern towns.
Its a gordian knot.
there is also the fact that 70+ labour mps would rebel and split the party wide open unless there is a faint bone to throw to leave labour voters because they know a large part of the labour support in those northern towns needs to hear it is not being ignored and if labour does ignore them it will loose huge swathes of seats
without those northern town labour cannot get anywhere near a majority.
I've found reasoned debate with brexiteers in real life to be completely impossible. The issue always boils down to immigration: there's too many foreigners, coming over here and helping themselves to our benefits and services. They are akin to a brain washed cult, often wilfully ignorant with no interest in the politics at play behind this. Any negative to brexit is either dismissed as lies or a price worth paying, of course they don't expect it to be themselves paying that price.
Basically the EU is bad, cos The Sun said so.
remember seasonal food? I used to get excited when lettuce and tomatoes came into season, because swede and cabbage got really boring.
there is no position they could adpot that would prevent this
Well there’s one thing they could do that would increase their support quite a bit, but it’s just the MSM that’s convinced me of that. But that probably belongs on another thread. Political geek my arse.
People are different on social media, it’s a mechanism for having a no-consequence argument.
If so, assuming they are such lovely folk face to face, imagine what arseholes they might become in the anonymity of a polling booth.....
My experience is totally opposite as they are willing to engage with me.
That's because you agree with them.
I saw some intersting polling today that shows labour have gained remain voters but lost leave voters in about a 2:1 ratio
Was debating this over on the Corbyn thread but people on here are tying themselves in knots to avoid this one.
Was debating this over on the Corbyn thread but people on here are tying themselves in knots to avoid this one.
Again, because they are remain enough to piss off brexies and not remain enough to attract many remainers.
Combined with the fact that they went far enough left to scare off a lot of their centre left.
Labour moving to rmain has lost them significant voters and gained them a few more. there is no position they could adpot that would prevent this
The need to be strongly remain for the cities and scotland. They need to show that they accept the remain vote in the northern towns.
They aren’t going to ever attract strongly remain voters as they feel betrayed and let down by Corbyn. At the same time they need them, what this all amounts to is too little too late.
Essentially exactly what Binners and others on here predicted, that the combination of old school leftism and support for brexit has hollowed out their support and will allow the Tories to steam roll the election.
Can’t say we didn’t tell you lot.
But also..
Remain-backing parties will forge a deal in more than 70 seats at a general election in a move that could leave them as kingmakers in the House of Commons, an MP has claimed.
Heidi Allen, a former Conservative MP who joined the Lib Dems on Monday, told Sky News her "Unite to Remain" strategy could have a major impact on the make-up of parliament when voters next go to the polls.
Under her plan, the Lib Dems, Green Party and Plaid Cymru will agree on a single candidate in some constituencies, while they will also not compete in seats where there is an incumbent Remain-backing independent MP.
I wonder if Labour will get off whichever of the high horses they are currently pretending to ride, or if they are still 'corbyn for PM or we'll enable no deal via the tories and BXP?
I am also not convinced standing on a no deal ticket will do the conservatives that many favours. A lot of their middle of the road voters will be alienated.
So how would another leader square the circle that 1/3 of the mps want to "respect the referendum" Large swathes of its voters want remain, large swathes of its voters want to leave?
Go on - how would changing the leadership at any point do this or have done this?
Remember I neither support labour nor Corbyn. I simply want the falsehoods exposed and this idea that another leader could have done any better is bunkum
Binners wanted one of the " respect the referendum" lot to be leader. anyone any other bright ideas?
I am all ears and await your solution to the gordian knot at the heart of labours difficulties over brexit
Simple: it is/was Labour (and their leaders) job to spell out to the electorate the damage that Brexit would cause. You know, actually take on a leadership role, not one of merely following the herd. Of course, that was never going to happen because Brexit is/was their aim too. The calculation is that the Tories would get the blame for anything bad that happened immediately after leaving and that Labour would inherit the blasted wastelands in order to build a new, socialist paradise. Unfortunately, they've been played like fools for the past three years.
I am all ears
You’ve never been all ears.
Remember I neither support labour nor Corbyn.
Jesus wept. You lot are like the embarrassed tory voters. Never admit to it but in the privacy of the polling booth it’s all, “but they’ll take me money...” just kinda the other way round. Getting sick of your preachy shite TeeJ. Maybe if you didn’t view everything through your Scottish bubble prism of SNP; “I hate liberals more than Tories”; “you’ve all been taken in by right wing media...” you’d actually see what Labour’s biggest problem is and what’s turning voters away...and it’s not their “nuanced” (sounds lovely that doesn’t it?) position on Brexit.
So how would another leader square the circle that 1/3 of the mps want to “respect the referendum”
Are you meaning 1/3rd Labour MP’s or 1/3rd in the commons?
Shirley if you mean the commons as a whole, then that's two thirds for remain, a majority! No?
I actually vote green. I have never said I hate the liberals more than tories. I dislike the lib dems, I loathe the tories with every fibre of my body
so go on - what would have happened if labour had a strong remain / revoke stance or even a second ref stance from earlier?
IMO 70+ labour MPS would have split the party and they will lose many of the leave voting northern towns which are essential to their electoral success
If you can tell me a workable policy that would avoid those two things I would love to hear it because I desperately want a strong labour party I simply cannot see any way out of that gordian knot. Its no good for labour getting a few more votes in strongly tory areas nor is it any good to them to lose those leavers in the norther towns
I agree Corbyn is an electoral liability ( but we probably disagree on why) and I would be fine with him no longer being leader because of this
My reason for not voting labour in Scotland is a purely scottish issue
So please - if yo have a solution to that dilemma then please tell me - I will listen and if it makes sense to me you will convert me.
1/3 of labour mps have said that they want to "respect the referendum" and do not want a rerun. significant numbers led by Kinnoch are prepared now to sign up to Mays deal to get brexit they are so scared of losing leaver votes in their constituency
So next election will be fought with Tories as party of No Deal
Lib dems as Remain
& Labour?
Johnson seems to have given up all pretence of getting a deal
labour second referendum with leave with a deal or remain. Either the deal on the table or another deal if they can do one ( we all know this is daft and a sop to those craven labour mps who are scared of the racist voters in their constituency)
Look, there are two problems:
• only the true few want Corbyn as PM
• no one trusts Labour on Brexit
You would have to have removed both blocks long ago. There will be no Labour majority after the next election. It’s too late. Tactical vote and hope to stop Johnson getting his majority. That’s all there is.
kelvin - what policy could labour have adopted that those mps from leave voting areas could have supported? its 1/3 of the labour party mps. How could a differnt polcy have kept the votes of the levers in those northern towns?
Maybe shifting to second ref earlier?
Do it too much earlier and then the press would have pilloried them more thanthey have done
I really cannot see how they could have done differently without either splitting the party or losing those northern towns.
Any ideas? I am genuinely interested. Deposing Corbyn I would have no issue with but I do not see what another leader could have done differently the party is so split and the voters they have to attract are so varied in view
There is no Brexit policy that any of the UK wide parties could adopt that would keep all their MPs safe in their seats, or all on side in parliament when it comes to Brexit votes.
The cunning politician is looking to win an election, not keep all their current MPs on side. The eye needs to be on winning the country, not the party. Corbyn should have been making the Conservatives own Brexit on their own. He couldn’t though, could he, for one very obvious reason. He has enabled Brexit for three years, not because a minority of his MPs thought he should, or because of “northern towns”, but because he wants it.
Anyway, I’ll be voting Labour at this next election, feel free to do so as well if you would like TJ (your logic for not doing so up there is sound though). The promise of a future confirmation vote is enough for me. On other issues Labour are ahead of the other parties for me (down here in this English seat).
I don’t actually know very many at all, the ones I do are acquaintances at best.
I can only think of one or two of my mates who are pro-brexit, and they're from the anti-racist lexit side not the other. I do however know many people at work, family members and old acquantances from my home town in the north east who voted out. Very few of them are the racist morons as stereotyped by the idiotic things we see on facebook or twitter. They just have a different view. If it comes up we state our positions, discuss it, then agree to disagree and leave it at that. It is possible to talk about this without lowering to Daily Mail levels of hysteria.
I was reading today that voter volatility is exceptionally high currently. Meaning that more people have switched parties than ever before. So the swings reported in the polls are actually complete reshuffles.
It therefore seems likely to me that the polls will be rendered very inaccurate by this, because the real answers are always extrapolated according to the polling companies models. And those models could be all over the place now.
I am unsure who to vote for in truth. Green will not stand in my constituency, lib dems came a very poor 4th last time and I expect a loss in votes for them in Scotland. Labour and SNP on a similar amount and in brexit terms ( both second ref ( is that SNP policy?)and both candidates last time ( I assume the same ones this time ) are hard to vote for for varying reasons. Obviously I will not vote tory
Kelvin - so what would yo have had labour do ( assuming they deposed Corbyn)
would a strong "second ref" policy have been a vote winner if led well?
IMO 70+ labour MPS would have split the party and they will lose many of the leave voting northern towns which are essential to their electoral success
Source TJ?
MOlgrips - I suspect very regional effects as well so national polls will not be able to beextrrapolated into regions. I see lib dems doing OK in the south erhaps taking a few seats especially if we haven't left and the tory vote is split by brexit - under those circumstance I think they will do well
In the midlands and North I think labour will do better than national polls show
In Scotland the SNP will wipe out everyone.
I suspect a hung parliament with no one near overall control and I fear another lib dem / tory government
Rayban -0 multiple newspaper reports and public statements from the MPs - check out Kinnoch - he is one of the leaders of that grouping
Farmers turning on them now.
BBC News - Farmers 'betrayed' by no-deal Brexit tariff plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49970197
Rayban -0 multiple newspaper reports and public statements from the MPs – check out Kinnoch – he is one of the leaders of that grouping
Ok I’ll have a look at it TJ, cheers.
I haven’t seen anything yet to convince me that Labours tactics have been anything other than woefully incompetent.
Can you suggest anything better? I really find it hard to do so. Depose Corbyn a year or two ago and campaign hard for a second ref but the backlash to that at that time would have been huge and I think it would have split the party
Rayban - for example:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/14/labour-bloc-plans-radical-move-to-push-through-brexit-deal
Tj, any actual policy on Brexit splits the party. Have you looked at how many MPs have left the Conservative Party since 2016? But which party is gaining support daily from the public at large? Fudge can be accepted by party activists and policy nerds, but it doesn’t lead to government.
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues. That should have been Labour’s approach… not to ignore the vote, but address the concerns that were behind it. By now the pain, expense, hassle and boredom of Brexit should all be on the shoulders of the party that is in government, with Labour offering real solutions to real problems that should be enacted instead of Brexit, not trying to be agnostic on it.
But which party is gaining support daily from the public at large?
The tories. And why is that? The result of their simple support for brexit, or the public's dislike of Corbyn? May fought the last election on the message of 'I'm not Corbyn', look where that got her. Boris is fighting this one on 'We're leaving, no matter what' and he's looking much more certain of winning than May. I guess we'll see which is more successful.
What are you proposing @dazh? That Corbyn should be pushing a No Say No Deal Brexit to win over right leaning voters who will then overlook all his other policies and history? And May didn’t fight the last election, she called it and then hid and hoped. The leave team behind Johnson will not play it the same way.
they’re from the anti-racist lexit side not the other.
Can you explain further? Genuine question, I don't know what you mean by that.
Very few of them are the racist morons as stereotyped by the idiotic things we see on facebook or twitter.
Let's see.
I know a guy I went to school with, I barely remember him from back then and only know him now after meeting once on a school reunion a couple of years back. His brexity output on Facebook is primarily reposting memes about immigrants and veterans. There is actually promise here though, I've been gently nudging him and he seems... if not receptive then at least not openly antagonistic.
I know a guy I used to work with in the 90s (and haven't met since then beyond popping up on Facebook recently), he was an "older gentleman" back then with very contentious views at the time, the fact that he's turned out to be a complete gammon comes as no surprise to me at all.
Another a guy I also used to work with in the 90s, we've remained friends since. He's a very intelligent lad, one of the brightest people I know even, but was always considered a bit of a nob (in an affectionate sort of way). I'm not 100% certain he's a brexiter beyond a couple of questionable posts though I have my suspicions from a couple of things he's said, but we lost touch for a while and I've not seen him to talk to until relatively recently so haven't really wanted to bring up the subject.
There's a woman at work who thinks we should leave the EU because there's too many ****s. I've not even bothered to try and engage here as I barely know her and it's clear from spending more than five minutes in her company that she's as thick as mince. It'd be like trying to discuss particle physics with cheese.
Another intelligent bloke, an engineer I work with currently. Basically he gets his politics from his dad and regurgitates them. He came out with some leave bollocks at work one day a couple of years ago, I called him on it, and after me countering his nonsense with facts for 15 minutes he played the Edinburgh defence and said he was only saying things to wind me up.
..
Ironically, a few months later we were driving back from a site visit together and after worrying at his phone for a few minutes he told me he'd just lost a couple of grand in shares overnight due to brexit. After a moment's awkward silence I said, "I don't really need to say anything further here, do I?" He agreed and neither of us have brought it up since.
I think that's it, that's all the leavers I know.
I do not see the tories gaining in the polls - they have been all over the place but the trend seems pretty steady to me with tories on mid 30s and labour mid to high 20s
ie ( published a month ago)
Opinium – CON 37%, LAB 25%, LDEM 16%, BREX 13%, GRN 2% (tabs)
ComRes – CON 28%, LAB 27%, LDEM 20%, BREX 13%, GRN 5% (tabs)
YouGov – CON 32%, LAB 23%, LDEM 19%, BREX 14%, GRN 7% (tabs)
"
There isn’t really a consistent trend to report here – YouGov and ComRes have the Conservatives declining a little from the peak of the Johnson honeymoon, but Opinium show them continuing to increase in support. My view remains that voting intention probably isn’t a particularly useful measure to look at when we know political events are looming that are likely to have a huge impact. Whatever the position is now, it is likely to be transformed by whether or not we end up leaving the European Union next month, on what terms and under what circumstances."
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues. That should have been Labour’s approach
Unsuprisingly thats what labour having been dong with a string of policy announcements many with that sort of aim. No getting much publicity tho are they?
Quite a (visually) good poll tracker here: https://britainelects.com/polling/westminster/
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues.
Thank you for saying this, kelvin. It's somewhat reassuring to hear that I've not been shouting into an absolute vacuum for three years.
No getting much publicity tho are they?
Have they said, “Brexit is not the answer, so, with your consent, let’s bin it and do all this instead”, that was the proposition, not, “forget about Brexit, it’ll probably happen, we’d prefer a different version, but, let’s talk about other things instead“, as that just looks like ducking the issue, and doesn’t gain the trust of anyone.
Unsuprisingly thats what labour having been dong with a string of policy announcements many with that sort of aim. No getting much publicity tho are they?
I don't recall them ever packaging it as this though? Like, explicitly saying "hey, we hear you, and we'll address your concerns." That might win a few votes.
I know a fair amount of Leavers, more than Remainers now I think of it.
Just my own personal experience here and the unkind might say it's a reflection on me...but all of them to varying degrees want Brexit over immigration. Some fairly mild mannered about it, others outright on the nose racist.
Thing is,I didn't know this about some of them until I saw some horrendous posts on FB or made the mistake of bringing up Brexit.
I've honestly found it a bit hard to deal with as I thought I knew them pretty well. Then I see their profile pic turns to a burning EU flag and other crap I just can't get my head around.
Brexit is utterly toxic on every level of society. From the individual right up to this forced collective we are being moulded into.
I genuinely see it as an evil entity. There is no good side. None at all.
There is a malignancy at the heart of our country and it's heart breaking to witness.
Thing is,I didn’t know this about some of them
...
There is no good side. None at all.
A bittersweet positive perhaps, but you now know who the racists are. They were still racist pre-2016 but hiding, brexit hasn't made them racist it's just given them a voice.
kelvin - so if labour had taken that sort of position immediatly after the referendum - second ref, lets do what we can to control immigration, let put money into the northern economy sort of position how do you think that would have played out in the press and how do you think it would have played out in those northern towns?
I think they would have been smashed on the "ignoring the will of the people" line
Shifting to that position over a period of time as the absurdity of brexit became clearer would have been difficult and still wuld have caused difficulties
Who knows - it might have worked and its not far from where they are now
I genuinely see it as an evil entity. There is no good side. None at all.
Yep it’s Pandora’s box incarnate.
Just my own personal experience here and the unkind might say it’s a reflection on me…but all of them to varying degrees want Brexit over immigration. Some fairly mild mannered about it, others outright on the nose racist.
Not a million miles away from to my experiences, although I was well aware of their thoughts on immigration long before the referendum and it’s definitely not 100% and the mild ones are really only concerned about being pushed out of unskilled jobs.
This is going back to the early 2000s really. Mostly within the farming or warehousing sectors. Both of which saw dramatic changes in the make up if staff in that time.
Some of language used I’d not even want to hint at.
One thing that did stand out from that time (I now live somewhere staunchly remain and work in a very different sector) is that some of those that migrated in for economic reasons pretty much wanted to pull the drawbridge up behind them. I would not be at all surprised if they voted leave.
Some of the non economic reasons given prices pretty harrowing, particularly from Somalians.
I do miss the diversity of people that place offered. And it certainly shifted how I identify away from English to something far broader and less defined. I know some people from that time that went the other way and felt the need to express their English identity more. Or perhaps they’ve since been given platforms on which to express their feelings on national identity.
Well this should wipe the smile off Brexiteers faces:
https://apple.news/AfGDSRdmBREGnEi8eGiLL1Q
“A no-deal Brexit poses a threat to toilet paper supplies as manufacturers reveal they are preparing for possible blockages at the border.”
This thread could end up being merged with the Picolax one.
Racism is still a huge issue. A small % of people are openly racist about stuff but the slightly racist (know they shouldn't say stuff out loud) makes up a massive % of the population.
This comes out on social media (especially the anonymous users) and when you give these people a free vote such as the referendum you get a result largely based on racism.
The start of the propaganda was to play on those racism issues to get the result and once the result was obtained the propaganda continued to play on the divide between remainers and leavers
Classic fascist propaganda tactics. Find a split - race, religion or in this case the EU and they use it to get what you want. While I can understand how race and religion are easy to use being able to use the leave/remain split amazes me as people didn't care that much about it before 2016 so really does show the power of propaganda.
A bittersweet positive perhaps, but you now know who the racists are.
It's certainly the case that the last 3 years has exposed precisely this. I know a few people who are (on the face of it) decent enough people, who have now taken to reposting on social media the kind of noxious shite that Leave.EU was posting yesterday and links to all manner of nasty fascist stuff like Britain First. The mask has most definitely slipped with a lot of people. In line with a toxic national atmosphere that seems to have legitimised an awful lot of small-minded intolerance.
I've mentioned in this thread before the couple of older blokes who drink in my local who are Lexiteers, who I've been having a pint with and chatting to for years. They're decent blokes, old school labour, Socialist in their beliefs, but they are rabidly anti-EU, probably more extremely so than anyone else I know.
A chat with them will quickly dissuade you from any idea that racism, nationalism and xenophobia are purely the preserve of the rightward end of politics. Those on the (old school Bennite) left will happily express exactly the same sentiments as you'd hear from the mouth of Nigel Farage when it comes to Brexit and sees no contradiction at all with referring to the same sources.
Proof that if you go far enough to either extreme, you end up meeting in the middle
That Leave.EU tweet seems to have pushed even lifelong Eurosceptics too far. Interesting comments on this tweet.
https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1181666917427404800
kelvin – what policy could labour have adopted that those mps from leave voting areas could have supported? its 1/3 of the labour party mps. How could a differnt polcy have kept the votes of the levers in those northern towns?
Maybe shifting to second ref earlier?
Do it too much earlier and then the press would have pilloried them more thanthey have done
I really cannot see how they could have done differently without either splitting the party or losing those northern towns.
Any ideas? I am genuinely interested. Deposing Corbyn I would have no issue with but I do not see what another leader could have done differently the party is so split and the voters they have to attract are so varied in view
TJ ... I've voted mainly labour in Gen elections and sometimes (once i think) LibDem... but Corbyn is a blocker.
The truth is he wouldn't have been my preferred choice before all this Brexit crap but his behaviour over Brexit is the major reason I won't vote for him now.
I can't in all honesty say WHAT I'd vote without the Brexit crap but my gut feeling is I could find a way to vote for him until he got deposed and worse case there is the next GE .... and hey it might work out... It's not like its BREXIT and a one way ticket...
What could Labour/Corbyn have done ... THEIR JOB AS OPPOSITION.... who else other than Labour would really have any credibility in those Northern towns explaining how and why people were lied to and misled.
Farmers turning on them now.
Yes, this was always bound to happen as soon as the reality hit the fan and people were able to talk about actual policies. Why do you think May kept everything under wraps for so long?
What could Labour/Corbyn have done … THEIR JOB AS OPPOSITION
And what would you have them oppose? Brexit? Given their electoral base? We've been over this. Much as you or I would have liked it, they could not simply come out and say bollocks to Brexit. They'd have been destroyed. Ok so their current policy hasn't worked well either, but that doesn't mean the alternative would be better. It may well be worse.
The mistake remainer Labour leaning people seem to be making is that 'X hasn't worked, therefore Y would for sure because I like Y'. That does not follow at all.
Re Brexiteers themselves - I think it is possible for someone to be anti-immigration and not racist. There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled. Although I say this as someone who is absolutely pro-immigration. Like most things, if you screw it up, it has negative consequences.
Many many moons ago Cougar suggested that politicians should look at why people voted Brexit, and work on policies that spoke to those needs and wants… rather than pretending that Brexit would solve those issues. That should have been Labour’s approach…
This. So much this. This would have been the properly 'democratic' response to such a slim margin for leaving, as it would have allowed the people to have had their say, but still displayed good governance by taking an appropriate response to the slim majority for leaving.
Would have required too much clever politiccing though. They would have needed short, snappy robust responses for every Brexit trope, INCLUDING the 'will of the people nonsense'.
Immigration? What about the controls we already have?
Cost of EU Membership? What about the economic benefits?
Fishing? We propose an offshore wind industry and will retrain fishermen etc
Sovereignty? Here's a list of EU laws that we have contributed to the creation of blah blah blah
It would have taken concerted and coordinated effort and ultimately I think it was just beyond the abilities of modern politicians. Although I do also accept that they would have received no help at all from the press.
That should have been Labour’s approach…
So you criticise their nuanced and balanced policy on brexit for not being simple enough, then suggest they should have done something much more balanced and nuanced instead? One thing that has struck me about the remain reaction to labour policy is that, to use a topical phrase, they want to have their cake and eat it. They want labour to be both simple and easy to communicate to counter the 'brexit means brexit' rubbish, but also want it to be detailed and nuanced enough to address the concerns of leave voters so that they won't vote leave. You can't have it both ways.
Molgrips, why would have labour been hit so hard by more strongly supporting remain when their leave voting base was only a few percentage higher than the Lib Dem’s - who have clearly not lost any support by robustly supporting remain.
They want labour to be both simple and easy to communicate to counter the ‘brexit means brexit’ rubbish, but also want it to be detailed and nuanced enough to address the concerns of leave voters so that they won’t vote leave. You can’t have it both ways.
thats daft
all Corbyn has to say is that we must ditch the poisonous political & financial black hole that is Brexit because otherwise we will never be able to get on with tackling the actual issues the country faces
....
He can't say that because he doesn't think it. He thinks the opposite of that.
He formed an opinion 40+ years ago, in the 70's, along with Tony Benn and Michael Foot that the EU is an evil, capitalist, neo-liberal conspiracy that exists purely to impoverish and exploit the workers of Europe and must be resisted.
And as we all know, he hasn't changed his mind on anything, ever, due to always being right about everything
The Corbynite vision for this country has always involved Brexit and being outside the EU. Still does. Always will do.
Quack.
I think it is possible for someone to be anti-immigration and not racist.
It's possible, sure. But I doubt it's a 50:50 split.
There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled.
How are you unpicking that from racism, out of interest?
Social issues: "there's too many foreigners on my street, I hear they're going to be building a mosque"
Economic issues: "coming over here, taking our jobs"
If someone is against immigration and that's 100% nothing to do with racism, is it safe to assume that they'd also be against people having babies?
So here comes Johnsons desperate final play - emergency sitting of parliament on the 19th - what trickery is he going to try? My bet is to try to get a vote to supersede the Benn act and / or to confirm a leave on the 31st
he is looking desperate now.
what trickery is he going to try?
World record filibuster?
He has to hold a sitting then, because that's when Wandering Hands Johnson has made his bestymost totally true promises about getting a deal done by, so obviously there will be something to vote through. Clearly he'll also table the option of death by No Deal. As to what else? Who knows. I don't see either of those being voted through, even assuming a deal has been done. Also that's the day of the Benn law, so the legal angle must be that if the deal hasn't been agreed then he has to write the magic letter. Although if he's in parliament lying about, well, anything and everything, for the entire of the 19th he'll probably claim he wasn't able to find the time.
I'm sure Prime Minister Cummings has something else totally above board and legitimate planned for the occasion.
Binners - apart from he clearly and publicly has changed his mind on the EU. to paraphrase he said " I used to be against staying in the EU but now on balance I have been persuaded that staying is is right"
He has campaigned to stay in, he has accepted a second vote, he will campaign again against any tory deal he will atteampt to get a softest of soft brexits if he has the power to do do to cause minimum damage while respecting the referendum. But for you he can do no right so you have to invent or repeat stuff about him that is easily disproved.
also you are wrong on Benn - Benn hated the EU because he feared the power of germany - he was of the wartime generation and distrusted / hated them to the point of xenophobia. He considered the EU to be the german empire mk2
But then - don't let facts get in the way of your rantings
I'm struggling to see what the Parliamentary route to something sensible is now. Have they got time to vote down the Queen's Speech, go through the normal VONC procedures, set up an interim unity govt?
I suppose one scenario is to bring back May's 'deal' with minor amendments and a 2nd ref attached and pass that, then ask for an extension to hold the ref? That could take several months.
There can be social and economic issues with immigration if poorly handled.
How are you unpicking that from racism, out of interest?
Social issues: “there’s too many foreigners on my street, I hear they’re going to be building a mosque”
Economic issues: “coming over here, taking our jobs”
Cougar, that's unusually knee-jerk of you...unless I've mis-interpreted.
There can be social and economic issues as a result of migration from within the same country, and that's clearly nothing to do with racism.
If people move from one place to another there is always a social impact of integrating those new people into the area in terms of services and infrastructure required to support them, getting used to an existing community etc. It can be made harder if they're not native language speakers or have different cultural values. But lets be clear, issues != bad. Likewise economic impacts, whether it be on employment prospects, housing, whatever, and the impact can be positive as well as negative.
Even building a new housing estate can have issues if local services and infrastructure are not equipped to support the new population, that's an 'issue' that needs planning and management, like many other issues.
Obviously the way you respond to that can be either negative or positive, and the outcome can be overwhelmingly positive both locally and nationally, but it is right to recognise that there are impacts that come with migration and immigration, planning for and managing them is the job of our government and it is only right that they do so.
There's nothing racist about saying that immigration and migration comes with challenges as well as rewards, and can need management. The racism is in how you choose to react to those impacts.
Remainer and supporter of FOM and immigration here BTW.