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Even if you ideologically believe in brexit it is quite clear that those delivering it are experts in nothing but abject failure.
The donkeys are doing to the economy what they did to our troops in WW1.
largest democratic @@@@ in history
Ignoring the special pleading that needs some strict definition of "largest" .. this is as much a question of what @@@@ gets replaced with.
It doesn't matter how many people vote for something that is impossible, it's still impossible.
Of course we can leave the EU ... but leaving the EU and keeping the promises made by leave is impossible and in many cases downright lies.
I don't even know where to start on the lies... curved bananas? not claiming the money for the NHS under EHIC? Not implementing perfectly legal border controls? 650M a week? All these were known lies ...
Then there are the lies which were always lies but could be pretended otherwise, "the easiest trade deal in history the day AFTER we vote", joining EFTA ... etc. that only the deluded might really beleive.
With the option to rejoin always on the table
Another outright lie .... the option is obviously not on the table for the UK because the UK won't get a vote if it leaves.
However most worrying is that many seem to be carried along with ignoring the lies "if only we all believe" .... the easiest deal changed from the "day after we vote" to "the day after we leave".
It's beyond me why anyone would believe this ... "fool me once, shame on you"....
I quite honestly don't understand why anyone would believe that the ONLY way to get what you voted for is to continue the lie.
I see Dom is busy 'leaking' selective information again. Apparently even UK Brexit ministers haven't yet seen the full 44 page legal text of the UKs proposal to the EU. All decisions are being made by Dom and Dommer.
We now don't really have a government in any recognisable sense of the word. Instead, we've got 2 madmen basically formulating UK policy on their own, in a bunker, at the most important critical point since the second world war, with no consultation with anyone
Truly terrifying!
The only thing we can be certain of is that this countries future is looking bleaker and bleaker by the day
I normally only read this thread and not get involved, but unfortunately that has now gone out of the window.
Quite frankyly @exsee, you seem a bit of an Ar$ewipe. Leave only options referendum, you cant seriously believe that? You must be trolling.
As has been pointed out to you, several times, a statically insignificant opinion poll (read this as 'non-legally binding') means that "the will of the people" bollox forces one option that can be given to the electorate to be taken off the paper? And you still have the temerity to talk about democracy?
Heres an idea, how about we show the world our democracy in action (you know taking back control and all that) and put the available options on a referendum and allow the people to choose from all three options, namely: No Deal leave, leave with BloJo's as yet invisible Deal, or Revoke A50. Those are all the options that could be proposed, there are no other options, so give the people a chance to confirm/overturn this "largest democratic vote in British history" since you are such a fan of democracy.
And to say you think that a compromise deal will make 'most people happy' is talking out your ar$e I'm affraid.
I wonder what previously banned member exsee is?
Heres an idea, how about we show the world our democracy in action (you know taking back control and all that) and put the available options on a referendum and allow the people to choose from all three options, namely: No Deal leave, leave with BloJo’s as yet invisible Deal, or Revoke A50
Because, even assuming BoJo actually GETS a deal with the EU it is still a huge way from the promises of fantastic global trade deals. Despite having 3 yrs Leave have not published a single MoU and the leaks of the ones we have got (made by the foreign powers) quite plainly are not acceptable to most Leave voters. The US has made it clear we need to accept their food standards and that "the NHS is on the table", India made it plain it wants visas, work permits and FoM. (and these are just the points released by the US and India)
Where is this Australian style points system? It should be published and I strongly suspect many LEAVE voters will strongly object to their jobs being replaced.
and ... the elephant in the room of the NI/RoI border.
On the other side, remain has not made clear several points. In the hubris of the referendum these were ignored...
To be fair there are 2 end points on remain... and these are entirely down to the UK
Quite a few of these things we could do but don't could be quite influential to LEAVE voters and quite a few could also be positive to a few REMAIN voters. Many issues that influenced LEAVE voters have been ignored and in fact could be addressed in whole or part simply by UK legislation.
Just a few examples:
Why do we not exert our current legal controls over protecting British jobs? (Other EU members have done this... and there is a great deal of UK legislation could be put forwards and passed if there was a will.
Why do we not claim back money under EHIC? What is the cost and what is lost?
I suspect the cost vs lost income is minor but why not publish and put it on the table?
Why do we pay child support for children not in the UK? How much do we pay, how many of these are born in the UK ?
To do this we have to not discriminate on EU vs UK.. again I expect this is minor and the flipside would be some UK born kids living abroad would have to claim in the country they live.
There are plenty more ... but I think there could be at least 2 REMAIN OPTIONS .... the "Remain As-Is" vs "Remain and Reform UK policies"
largest democratic vote in history
Numerically apparently marginally more voted in the 1992 general election and if adjusted for electoral size (ie based on % turnout) about 15th largest democratic vote.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can't be agreed - as is looking most likely)
@exsee play the ball, not the man.
You said we'd be better off when we leave. In what way do you believe we'd be better off? The only thing you've offered so far is something about missing cherries, how do you perceive that having less of something (whatever "cherries" are supposed to be) is a good thing?
You handwave us having a say in the EU as a small thing. Our MEPs make up currently one tenth of the EU give or take loose change, in a very real sense we tell them what to do rather than the other way around as per popular rhetoric. I'm struggling to see how giving this up is either trivial or beneficial. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can’t be agreed – as is looking most likely)
I've said this several times now, but should we have another referendum the only sensible vote would be on whatever leave terms we've agreed in the EU and in parliament vs scrapping the whole thing. Having multiple separate leave options would split the vote and wouldn't be fair on leave voters. Essentially, a third referendum would be "this is what we've come up with, do you want it or not?"
Once more with feeling: no deal isn't an option, it's what happens when we run out of options.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge
It could be done with transferable vote although obviously would need some limits still.
Something like:
Maybots deal
Leave with no deal
Remain.
In some ways I think it would be needed otherwise the extremists would whinge they have been stitched up by only having maybots deal despite that being a harder brexit than most of them were promising in the past.
So we could get
32% Maybots deal
32% Leave with no deal
36% Remain
I am a remainer but I can see the problem with that one...
There are many ways to cope with multiple options/preferences in a vote. Our over reliance (in England) on FPTP and occasional exposure to the odd binary referendum has infantilised our idea of the voting element of democracy.
Having said that, having a “leave and we’ll work it out later” no deal option just allows politicians to paint multiple mutually exclusive pictures of what that means. Another referendum, whether binary or with multiple options, needs to include only options that can be properly scrutinised during the campaign, and enacted without further long delays and additional votes if it becomes the chosen option.
I am a remainer but I can see the problem with that one…
Ermm no. Thats round one now try round two.
Obviously not an ideal solution but the time for that was in 2016. currently this is trying to fit the parachute midair.
Any referendum with more than two options would be a total fudge, remain or leave (leave option being whatever deal can be agreed or no deal if one can’t be agreed – as is looking most likely)
Any referrendum with only 2 options is also a total fudge. The first referrendum was a TOTAL FUDGE.
I’ve said this several times now, but should we have another referendum the only sensible vote
would be on whatever leave terms we’ve agreed in the EU and in parliament vs scrapping the whole thing. Having multiple separate leave options would split the vote and wouldn’t be fair on leave voters. Essentially, a third referendum would be “this is what we’ve come up with, do you want it or not?”
Once more with feeling: no deal isn’t an option, it’s what happens when we run out of options.
To you or I it's not a viable option ... however to many leave voters it's become THE option ...
The more apparent it has become that there isn't a viable deal they voted for the more they have been led into No Deal as the preferred option and somehow believing that's what they voted for in the first place.
It’s beyond me why anyone would believe this
It is now a religion, to all intents and purposes. You cannot question religion. Or change it.
Latest surprise:
however to many leave voters it’s become THE option
Yes. Because, again as I've said before, most of them don't have the slightest grasp of what "no deal" actually means. And any attempt to explain it just gets projectfeared away.
Eg, we currently fly planes internationally because we have deals in place which allow us to do so. Out of the EU, we lose that. Now of course, I don't for a moment believe that we won't negotiate something to allow us to keep flying (and I think there's now a transitional agreement in place for the short term at least?), but that is ipso facto a "deal" of sorts meaning that "no deal" doesn't actually exist, it's no-deal-apart-from-the-bits-we-want-to-have-deals-on. As ever it's an oversimplification, May's "deal" (or whatever Boris ever pulls out of his arse) isn't actually a deal at all, it's a large collection of micro-deals.
Despite what they may say / think, nobody really, actually wants 'no deal' aside from a few morally bankrupt sociopaths who stand to become considerably wealthier than they already are and see the country burning as acceptable collateral damage.
oooph, shit just got real...
From the indie just now:
Angela Merkel, the German chancellor spoke to Boris Johnson this morning and told him a Brexit deal is “overwhelmingly unlikely”, a No 10 source has told the BBC.
The Downing Street source also said that Brexit negotiations in Brussels “are close to breaking down”.
“Merkel said that if Germany wanted to leave the EU they could do it no problem, but the UK cannot leave without leaving Northern Ireland behind in a customs union and in full alignment forever,” claimed the No 10 official, in remarks reported by Sky News.
“She said that Ireland is the government’s special problem and Ireland must at least have a veto on Northern Ireland leaving.
“Merkel said that the prime minister should tell Northern Ireland that it must stay in full alignment forever, but that even this would not eliminate customs issues.
“It was a very useful clarifying moment in all sorts of ways.”
ITV’s Robert Peston said: “Johnson will now go full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. I would expect him to make a statement about all this later today.”
Whats BloJo gonna do, He legally has to request an extension, court case due later today too..
Can I paraphrase that Cougar?
"No Deal" Leave is now the complete absence of rationality and the substitution of magical thinking and cultism.
No Deal is just “we’ll tell you after we’ve left”… “trust us”…
So to avoid getting another extension, he's now going to throw a hand grenade into the negotiations and destroy our future relationship with our closest trading partner
This is all Cummings doing. Cameron was right. He's a ****ing psychopath!
Yup, the more damage the better… that’s his MO.
The pound won’t dive much really on this news, as Johnson not really seeking a realistic deal is already priced in… there are some possible significant events this month that could see it drop like a stone though… if parliament pulls its punches after the queens speech, and no deal at the end of the month goes up from 20% likelihood to 50:50 odds… the UK will be further dumped, and quickly.
All eyes on the waif and strafe MPs who aren’t happy with how their party has been transformed since 2016… if they decide to fall in behind Johnson… and go for a “repairing the damage after Brexit” narrative, or if more of them just quietly throw in the towel and stop voting and turning up to parliament, we’re collectively screwed.
So, foreign leaders have to call our PM and explain carefully why his plan is bobbins, when every commentator and every person with a dash of intelligence can see it.
We're being led by children.
Our shop lease is up soon. I'm going to act like a **** get us chucked out and tell Mrs zip that it's a great success.
Can I paraphrase that Cougar?
“No Deal” Leave is now the complete absence of rationality and the substitution of magical thinking and cultism.
Works for me. (-:
Rumors that Doms No 10's version of the phone call between BloJo and Merkel, has some heavy spin on it.
I wonder if the German government will release thier transcript of the pone call?
People can only support the Brexit that isn’t written down. Glib simplicities are welcome, detailed legal proposals are open to scrutiny and comparison to the existing arrangements, so must be avoided to keep Brexit alive. Great for campaigning (which is all Johnson has been doing for the last three years), rubbish for running a country and dealing with other countries.
mattyfez
Member
Rumors that...
Indeed. Just read Kuensberg’s (frankly irresponsible) tweet and the Deal or No Deal mentality loons have gone off on one...there’s a surprise.
For something a bit more balanced, here’s Tony Connelly’s take:
https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1181516491981803520?s=21
As much as I’d like to imagine Angela ditching all niceties and saying, “Look you fat ****ing mop-haired bitty sipping ****, here’s how it is son...”, she just doesn’t do things that way. She’s intensely diplomatic.
So, this is the end game for any type of deal. My assumption is now that the Benn Act will somehow be cicrumvented and we leave with no deal on the 31st October. At that point, things will get nasty as the reality of abrubt severance are felt. Both UK and EU will takes actions that are viewed with hostility by the other, in the UK the actions of the EU will be easily spun to galvanise enough public opinion that we were right to leave after all.
the other, in the UK the actions of the EU will be easily spun to galvanise enough public opinion that we were right to leave after all.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
bitty sipping
Excuse me for a moment, I need to go and empty the coffee out of my keyboard.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
Are you really that surprised?
The nation has been lapping up propaganda and spin for years. Sadly it's very easy to believe that a) that's what will happen and b) we'll all fall for it, again.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
We're about to find out...
Time for a People's Revolt- why are we all sitting here letting this happen?
Are we as a nation really that dim?
When a fair chunk of the population eat up whatever BS their chosen media feeds them, then yeah, probably.
Can I move to Ireland and earn citizenship if I don't have a grandparent on which to rely?
That really smells of total desperation to be honest.
Gunboat diplomacy. Oh wait, we have no gunboats.
Can I move to Ireland and earn citizenship if I don’t have a grandparent on which to rely?
I think you can like everyone else provided you have the skill sets they want.
I'm terrified now. This is going to be abrupt, nasty crash out cos BJ will somehow circumvent the anti-No Deal law.
The EU won't want yet another extension because there's **** all that the UK can or will do to change any deal. They're fed up to the back teeth with us.
He's engineered a No Deal crash out by default which will earn all his mates billions in hedge fund betting. And the rest of us are totally screwed. 🙁
As someone born in Germany, it’s lovely to see this kind of reasoned debate and positioning, as you can imagine…
The EU won’t want yet another extension because there’s **** all that the UK can or will do to change any deal. They’re fed up to the back teeth with us
I am not the EU's biggest fan but they are the masters of the extension. This could be extended by another 10 years and they will be fine about it.
I’m terrified now. This is going to be abrupt, nasty crash out cos BJ will somehow circumvent the anti-No Deal law.
How will they circumvent it though? What mechanism? I think No.10 must be rattled from whats beeing siad over the last few days..
Also...
An update from the Court of Session in Edinburgh, where campaigners are asking for a nobile officium to make sure the Benn Act is upheld.
Lord Carloway has concluded today’s proceedings and said a decision will be made at 11am on Wednesday.
is that leave.eu ad even real?
What mechanism?
****ery.
is that leave.eu ad even real?
Yes. I screen grabbed it from their twitter feed, as I didn’t want to share a link to the actual tweet, because it linked to the Daily Mail.
@Kelvin is that a genuine image/post of theirs?
whether you're a remainer or leaver, it's disgusting if it actually is real 🙁
Its been glaringly obvious from the day that Dom and Dommer sidled into number 10 that they were absolutely determined to crash us out - 'come what may' 'do or die'
They weren't bluffing
I've been dreading this. It was inevitable, as part of their slash and burn policy, but it's still utterly depressing, and terrifying in equal measure to see it being played out
I suspect that the next few weeks are going to get progressively worse and worse.
It's like being strapped to a madman!
whether you’re a remainer or leaver, it’s disgusting if it actually is real
Easy for you to go and check. Look at their twitter feed (if you want to be depressed). Unbelievable, isn’t. This is going to get so nasty.
I implore everyone posting here not to join in the ramping up of the rhetoric, no matter what you think we should do as regards Brexit.
Are we as a nation really that dim?
Some are. Possibly too many.
The evidence.
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1181515644954714114?s=19
Delete the Mail link please Matt. There aren’t many rules for this forum, but that’s one.
Easy for you to go and check. Look at their twitter feed
I did go looking*, but their site is blocked at work, and hadn't got to twitter yet, but yes I've now found it, utterly shameful 🙁
*It would be helpful if people post sources when stuff like that is linked to.
This is going to get so nasty.
With open racism on display, it already is nasty.
On a point of order how does this work, crazyjenkins posts this.
Quite frankyly @exsee, you seem a bit of an Ar$ewipe.
A couple of posts later cougar posts this.
@exsee play the ball, not the man.
Have I missed something ??
Edit: posted just the quoted!
Unfortunately that is the way his posts are coming across. It stinks of “you lost get ver it” whether he is a leaver or not.
I believe in democracy, I believe that an issue that has been so dividing and corrosive as this should not be left to one referendum from 3yrs and no facts ago. To say that because remain “lost” it should be completely discounted I find reprehensible. The posts that have been written by this member are either trolling for shits’n’giggles or show a profound lack of empathy and critical thinking or one-up-manship
I think <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">No.10</span> must be rattled from whats beeing siad over the last few days..
What's happening today looks like No.10 see the only way out on the 31st is to behave in a way that makes us remaining another minute utterly intolerable to rest of Europe. At this point if I represented the EU I'd announce we were making plans to close all ports and airports to any traffic from the UK with immediate effect on the 1st November.
I'm beginning to see this Government not as trying to emulate Germany of the 1930's but of Cambodia in the 1970's. It's all return to year zero and the stone age.
their site is blocked at work
Ahh… a spark of hope in the darkness.
To be fair cougar, it's you and others who aren't showing empathy. The feeling that the referendum has been done and only the manner of have how we leave is to be decided is pretty widespread. Maybe not on here but in the country as a whole it is.
The country as a whole is teetering on the edge of an abyss of disaster, empathy has a time and a place but it's after we sort this crock out.
Maybe not on here but in the country as a whole it is.
*waves from Scotland*
is that leave.eu ad even real?
Yes. Leave.eu is properly mental but massivelu popular Brexit group on facebook.
Make sure you flag the post to facebook (derrogatory, national origin).
taxi25
AFAIK all polls indicating now that more people would prefer to remain and have done so fairly consistently since 2017.
Make sure you flag the post to facebook (derrogatory, national origin).
Done. But I had to look at their page to find it, what a bunch of utter bastards they are.
. The feeling that the referendum has been done and only the manner of have how we leave is to be decided is pretty widespread. Maybe not on here but in the country as a whole it is.
Nah that's not the feeling I get at all but like Bob I'm in Scotland. I'm not one for the hard done by nationalist tropes but it's difficult to dispute the fact that Scotland and Northern Ireland have been increasingly ignored since the referendum. And Gibraltar, remember them? 98% remain IIRC.
Half the UK electorate (the statistical difference is negligible) has been disenfranchised. We have been almost completely ignored and we are now expected empathise with leavers? I think you got your words confused there, what you meant to say was subjugate to.
As Johnson tries to stoke the divisions ever further to cover up his complete failure
outside the shouty minority of internet shit-stirrers does anyone care any more?
it seems to me that Cummings & Johnson need to keep the hate flowing or the enthusiam for brexit will peter out
theres actual issues in the country we need to deal with
The feeling that the referendum has been done and only the manner of have how we leave is to be decided is pretty widespread.
Probably true in 2017. Now, people have looked at what no deal means, and most aren’t keen. One PM came to an agreement with the EU, but it was universally derided by nearly all as worse than remaining. Another PM has puffed his chest out promising a great deal, only to be found to be either lying (again) or deluded. So what’s the path out? Go for No Deal? Ask yet another PM to try and square the circle with another attempt at a deal? This is probably going to another vote… but that vote has to include a “stop the Brexit boondoggle, we’re bored to tears of it, and fed up of paying for it” option.
Have I missed something ??
Only that I was replying to the latter and not the former. I believe that should apply equally to both sides, but that's just my opinion as a user not a demand as a moderator. I'd probably have deleted the 'arsewipe' post if the target had been sufficiently offended to report it, but that didn't happen (and if we deleted every petty jibe everyone would complain about censorship and overzealous modding, this thread would be half the size and I wouldn't have time to get any work done).
To be fair cougar, it’s you and others who aren’t showing empathy. The feeling that the referendum has been done and only the manner of have how we leave is to be decided is pretty widespread. Maybe not on here but in the country as a whole it is.
I'm well aware of widespread "feelings," it's what got us here in the first place. I believe that 'what they think' isn't particularly relevant not because of a lack of empathy but rather a lack of respect for a dogmatic belief in lies. If a grown adult were to believe in Father Christmas then they are welcome to that belief of course, but it wouldn't instil in me a mandate to dress up in a red suit and send them presents.
Leave won on feelings, on ideals, on fantasies, and they're still doing it. That poster up there is a prime example, it must sound fantastic to your average Daily Mail reader. It's got everything - plucky proud nation standing up to our enemies; invoking that good old blitz spirit; a barely concealed suggestion that Merkel is a Nazi; a healthy dose of xenophobia; the EU telling us what to do; and a complete absence of any basis in fact. About all it's missing is the world cup. And you expect us to respect that and empathise with that? Do me a quaver, tried empathy and they don't want to listen, and respect is earned.
Plus, y'know, it's hardly flowing the other way, is it. Zero shits about the other half of the country have been given in the last three years (or Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands...), the last leaver I tried to had to have a reasonable discussion with on Facebook told me to go and **** my mother inside of three posts.
I've tried empathy. It doesn't work.
I've tried discussion. It doesn't work.
I've tried arguing. It doesn't work.
I've tried facts. It doesn't work.
I've tried evidence. It doesn't work.
I've tried, to my shame and frustration, insults. It doesn't work.
Brexit is a cult. How do you de-programme cultists who have been fed propaganda from all directions for years? Short of employing the dirty tactics of Leave.EU I'm at a loss as to what else to try.
I’m at a loss as to what else to try.
Cakes?
Usually works on me.
Coke and hookers?
Usually works on me.
Cake and hookers?
Works for Binners and I.
Hake and cookers? I like a nice fish tea
Don't pretend to be hard to get binners, everyone knows your price is a steak bake.
A packet of Monster Munch will usually do the trick
So what would happen if parliament then voted for May's deal in a couple of weeks? Seeing as it was agreed to be put back forward due to the government not posting tellers?
I kinda wish Alex Johnson would propose a bill for a referendum of no deal vs remain and completely cut the Lab-Lib legs off cos I'm just as fed up with them and Amber bloody Rudd (Labour is worse than no deal, no it ****ing isn't, that's 5 years till the next election max. Brexit is forever).
Then he loses, genius.
Stolen from elsewhere:
In reply to a deranged Brexiter:
The only parallel between Brexit & victory in World War 2 is that both were delivered in large part thanks to the Russians.
made me chuckle!
I think you can like everyone else provided you have the skill sets they want.
CTA allows free movement.
You’ll find a lot of England based outfits moving to Ireland to take advantage of being easily able to transfer their workforce. It’s already started happening, I am constantly being asked by recruiters if I am willing to pack my bags to go to Dublin these days.
The UK is going to get ****ing railroaded by this.
the last leaver I tried to had to have a reasonable discussion with on Facebook told me to go and **** my mother inside of three posts
And there’s the rub. I would reckon 80%+ of the Leavers I have tried to engage with on Facebook have resorted to insults and abuse within three posts. Around a third have resulted in threats of violence. And that is before I’ve started to take the piss out of them. I have noticed that probably 25% of remainer posts are taking the piss and around 10% resort to insults, but never a threat of violence and generally just asking pertinent questions to which there really should be answer given the seriousness of Brexit.
Now, you can dress that up how you like, but everyone knows the reasons why this imbalance exists and persists. I could spell it out (again) but apparently that is now considered bad form for some reason.
I do try and engage reasonably with leave voters on social media & make an effort not to insult. But yeah I've regularly had threats of violence & abuse.
I would reckon 80%+ of the Leavers I have tried to engage with on Facebook have resorted to insults and abuse within three posts.
99.9(recurring) percent of my interactions have resulted in one of three things:
1) Refusal to engage in an actual discussion, ignoring anything I say in reply and instead changing the subject with non sequiturs in every successive post.
2) Personal attacks, insults and abuse.
3) Abrupt disappearance from the thread.
... in about that order of likelihood. I can count the number of times this hasn't happened on the fingers of one hand. STW is comparatively a bastion of reason and relative sanity from leavers compared to places like Facebook and Twitter.