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What happened to the special relationship between the UK and the US?
The US has just added 25% on lots of products from the EU.
Lots of UK products included.
It never existed.
Americas relationship with Britain (and vice versa) has always been one of convenience - even during the war.
On the border in the event of “no deal”....
Yes, that what it looks like to me. We would be back to a hard border. That is quite unimaginable but seems to be being kept very quiet. It's like the Ireland/NI issue is being accepted as collateral damage to get Brexit
Johnson and his Brexiteer chums have always viewed Northern Ireland as an irritant that got in the way of their plans. If Theresa May hadn’t been in hock to the DUP she’d have thrown the Irish under the bus long ago to keep the ERG happy.
They presently don’t seem to care what happens to Ireland, north or south. A ‘price worth paying’
I know they couldn’t care less what happens ‘over there’ but they should do well to remember that the last time it dissolved into violence those pesky men in their balaclava’s didn’t confine their Semtex use to just Belfast and South Armagh.
During this whole debacle the dismissive attitude and wilful ignorance of the Brexiteers towards Ireland is what’s appalled me the most
Oh no mefty - I understood it perfectly and posted the relevant bits.
What hat article says is one specific allegation is over egged. However your own link shows that parts of this set of EU directives will come into place in 2020 and those parts of the directive will outlaw many of the tax evasion / avoidance schemes that many tories and their backers rely on to make money.
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Are these the tax avoidance schemes that were being promoted by May when she was trying to sell the idea of the UK becoming a tax haven?
It's becoming very apparent that Ireland have a lot of power right now
Counter to a lot of the patronising BS spun in the torygraph etc, the EU are deferring to Ireland, turns out 'little' Leo towers over Johnson physically and as a statesman!
There's some rather amusing irony there considering the history of the Tories in Ireland going back a long way.
mefty
Make sure you stockpile the tin foil hats!!
Hopefully you're not diabetic.... Start stockpiling the insulin!
It’s becoming very apparent that Ireland have a lot of power right now
The EU acts as a multiplier of sovereignty when dealing with outside entities… if we leave with No Deal then those who haven’t learnt that lesson yet, will soon enough… not just when dealing with Ireland, but also with the USA, China, WTO, ISO…
There’s some rather amusing irony there considering the history of the Tories in Ireland going back a long way.
@kimbers, you might not know but the word Tory is irish, it comes from the word tóraí, it means thief/brigand.... interpret that how you wish.
https://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fgb/t%C3%B3ra%C3%AD
The collaboration of just one of the 27 is all that’s needed for Johnson to get the no deal Brexit he wants.
No, the position we're in now is that we need only a majority. When/if we're out we will require unanimity. Part of why no deal is such a shit idea, because you're right back to trying to get agreement with them but there has been no pillow talk beforehand.
Oh that burns!
The collaboration of just one of the 27 is all that’s needed for Johnson to get the no deal Brexit he wants.
But would parliament just accept a no deal if Hungary vetoed an extension? Would they just revoke instead considering the damage that no deal would do.
If Theresa May hadn’t been in hock to the DUP she’d have thrown the Irish under the bus long ago to keep the ERG happy
I highly doubt it, as it pushes the case for Scottish independence massively if Northern Ireland remains a de facto EU state post brexit if the border was put in the Irish sea, which lets face it is the only solution to this whole mess apart from cancelling the whole thing.
This hard border proposal has moved the goalpost on weapons grade idiocy.
So some rich guys going to trash the UK, to get richer, at the expense of stoking actual civil war in Ireland, where the fragile peace was a long time coming and very hard won. Words fail.
During this whole debacle the dismissive attitude and wilful ignorance of the Brexiteers towards Ireland is what’s appalled me the most
Agreed, they are beyond contempt now.
I highly doubt it, as it pushes the case for Scottish independence massively if Northern Ireland remains a de facto EU state post brexit if the border was put in the Irish sea, which lets face it is the only solution to this whole mess apart from cancelling the whole thing.
My money is on Scottish independence being a near certainty if the not-so-united-kingdom does no deal.
Who knows. It might even lead to NI independence too.
Johnson and his Brexiteer chums have always viewed Northern Ireland as an irritant that got in the way of their plans. If Theresa May hadn’t been in hock to the DUP she’d have thrown the Irish under the bus long ago to keep the ERG happy.
They presently don’t seem to care what happens to Ireland, north or south. A ‘price worth paying’
I know they couldn’t care less what happens ‘over there’ but they should do well to remember that the last time it dissolved into violence those pesky men in their balaclava’s didn’t confine their Semtex use to just Belfast and South Armagh.
During this whole debacle the dismissive attitude and wilful ignorance of the Brexiteers towards Ireland is what’s appalled me the most
I'm pretty sure Boris, Rees-Mogg and chums don't give a flying what happens to anywhere.
Do you think the 2nd/3rd public actions by Boris were co-incidence? (First being some empty promise of Northern Powerhouse) ... 2nd and 3rd being Army/Police.
I'm fairly certain that it won't take long after he delivers no deal for the food and medicine to be rationed... industry to start laying off or short working weeks and he fully expects to call in his Praetorian guard on the mainland.
But would parliament just accept a no deal if Hungary vetoed an extension?
Hungary can't, they don't have a veto. Agreement at this point does not require unanimous decision.
Ideal outcome would be identical to the very end of Gladiator then.
No, the position we’re in now is that we need only a majority. When/if we’re out we will require unanimity. Part of why no deal is such a shit idea, because you’re right back to trying to get agreement with them but there has been no pillow talk beforehand.
Is that right? I thought all 27 had to agree to an extension?
Do you have any source /link?
If just a simple majority is required that makes a huge difference.
The EU acts as a multiplier of sovereignty when dealing with outside entities… if we leave with No Deal then those who haven’t learnt that lesson yet, will soon enough… not just when dealing with Ireland, but also with the USA, China, WTO, ISO…
It all comes down to rule number one, just on an international level.
Is that right? I thought all 27 had to agree to an extension?
IIRC, I think it’s simple majority to agree the Withdrawal Agreement, but European Parliament have to vote on it as well. Extension isn’t as clear cut… it’s a council decision, and, realistically, needs unanimity, although that isn’t a stated rule.
The actual trade deal is another story… that’ll end up back in the parliaments of many member states as well… and we’ve been busy pissing them all off. Comparing the EU to either Nazi germany or the USSR, and what they did, is deeply offensive to many on the continent. We’ve had a government minister doing that again this week. That trade deal after we have left is not going to be easy.
Interesting court case in Scotland - apparently scottish courts have the ability to force the UK government to do something which is not so in England. This has two benefits - the obvious one of forcing the UK government to obey the law and the funny one of scottish law pissing off the english nationalists 🙂
Another one of the few sane ones left has left the burning building
https://twitter.com/rorystewartuk/status/1180029820920569863?s=21
There's no room for any semblance of One Nation Tories in what the Tories have become.
Meanwhile...
I would find it amusing to point out the rhetoric of these right wing toadies for years has been about fighting for what is right evoking wartime patriotism and battle spirit to sell their right wing ideology.
But just like the republicans in the US, when that rhetoric gets ramped up even further than they are willing to go, they don't fight for what is right at all, they just wave the white flag and slink off into the darkness.
I would find it amusing were it not for what comes after the cowards abandon ship is looking very scary.
Was that aimed at Stewart @MSP? Because, even though I disagree with him on most things, not least as regards Brexit, he has openly fought for what his party should stand for, he has not quietly hidden away on the backbenches, nor could you accurately describe the way he has been acting as to “slink off into the darkness”. He has challenged the shift in his party, and politics in general, away from considered debate and into pure rhetoric. I think he has done so more openly and clearly than many (most?) politicians who are more aligned with my own politics, as it happens.
A dark thought, how long after “no deal” will the first IRA, INLA Real IRA etc etc attack come? It seems inevitable if any part of the GFA is contravened.
Brexit: Police chief rules out PSNI staffing Border checkpoints
It's the Tories. They'll outsource it.
What happened to the special relationship between the UK and the US?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wto-aircraft-brexit-analysis-idUSKBN1WI26G
"It throws up enormous uncertainty. With that realignment of allegiances going on, it is surprising that something as uniquely geographical as Scotch whisky is targeted by the Americans," said Edward Odim, managing director of Aceo Ltd, an independent Scotch whisky supplier.
"It is quite clear that Britain's position in the world is highly ambiguous at the moment. If we are going to be out of Europe, what is the purpose of it?" he said, adding the 25% tariffs would "really hurt."
It’s the Tories. They’ll outsource it.
Hopefully with a load of daily mail reading gammons.
A dark thought, how long after “no deal” will the first IRA, INLA Real IRA etc etc attack come? It seems inevitable if any part of the GFA is contravened.
They won't need to.There are bigger sticks to beat the UK with.
As Bonnie Greer pointed out on last night's Question Time, huge chunks of America identify as "Irish"
I wouldn't expect any favourable trade deals from the good ol' US of A after Boris throws the Irish under the lie-emblazoned bus.
The re have been statements from various american politicians that they will block any trade deal if the UK breaches the GFA.
This kind of sums up the Daily Mail, Brexit & the current situation of hate that the PM is stirring up.
https://twitter.com/BestoftheMail/status/1180058069599948800
You know, I think it's just conceivable that Joris doesn't have the first clue what he is doing.
If you read the GFA I think you'll find that several points have not been respected. I've pointed this out before, when the Government got into bed with the DUP and provided finance to them they broke this part of the agreement:
(v) affirm that whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities;
The UK government loses the first part of the case in the scottish courts where they tried to delay it so any judgement would be impossible to enforce.
Its an odd concept the "nobile officium" that only exists in Scottish law - in that an interdict ( an injunction in English law) allows the courts to force an action on behalf of the crown. this means that if the interdict is grant and Johnson refuses to send the letter in good faith ( so either refuses to ask for the extension or tries to weasel out of it in other ways ) then a court official can do so and it has the effect of coming from the queen ( by my understanding)
No one is above Scots law.
So - Johnson agrees he will ask for A50 extension if a deal cannot get through parliament by 19th. Surely that hugely plays into opposition hands, because now all they have to do is not vote for his deal and he's a goner?
His lawyers says that - not him. Subtle difference
"Government documents submitted to Scotland’s highest civil court today state that the prime minister will seek a Brexit extension from the EU if no withdrawal deal is reached by 19 October.
Boris Johnson said he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than seek a further delay, and the revelation in court appears to be in direct contradiction of that statement and throws the question of whether the UK will leave the bloc on 31 October into fresh doubt."
The UK government loses the first part of the case in the scottish courts where they tried to delay it so any judgement would be impossible to enforce.
Will this new case be known as the "Cherry on the top" case?
So he's not going to die in a ditch then?
I guess the statement served its purpose at the time but was never ever meant to be fulfilled. Much like pretty much every other Brexit promise before and since the referendum.
So he’s not going to die in a ditch then?
Not likely.
I've put ten quid on "swinging from a lamppost"
I am sure that will get straight back to the folk in court and just mean they will wrap it up even tighter than they would have done.
No, it served a purpose then and it still serves it. It's his dead cat, it's something that the man in the street will remember, especially when someone spins the extension asking as either him being forced into it, or someone else doing it.
Boris Johnson said he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than seek a further delay
Yeah but he also said he'd lie down in front of a bulldozer to stop an LHR runway, and in the end he didn't even vote against it.
So he’s not going to die in a ditch then?
I quite liked that idea when he first mooted it, but now I would prefer that he does end up being forced to request an extension. That will be funnier to watch.
A source confirms all this means is that Government will obey the law.
It does not mean we will extend.
It does not mean we will stay in the EU beyond Oct 31.
We will leave
My thoughts are that there is no substance behind this threat/promise, but if enough people say it with enough conviction then it will potentially influence enough people to accept the Johnson plan just in case they actually have a way of doing this. Its a game of chicken and they can run with it right up until the trigger dates in the Benn act, so Johnson wants to get a HoC vote on his deal before the EU summt, while this sword of damocles is still hanging over them.
As soon as he extends half his votes will go to BXP Limited and the fothcoming GE gets a whole lot messier than it already will be.
Boris Johnson said he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than seek a further delay
Given the various known and inferred funders a different interpretation might be that he will be found dead in a ditch if he doesn't deliver a no deal?
Was that aimed at Stewart @MSP? Because, even though I disagree with him on most things, not least as regards Brexit, he has openly fought for what his party should stand for, he has not quietly hidden away on the backbenches, nor could you accurately describe the way he has been acting as to “slink off into the darkness”. He has challenged the shift in his party, and politics in general, away from considered debate and into pure rhetoric. I think he has done so more openly and clearly than many (most?) politicians who are more aligned with my own politics, as it happens.
He’s announced his candidacy for the mayor of London.
I am tempted to vote for him - not because I agree with his Tory ideology but because A) He is open to changing his mind and considering the opinion of the other side and B) He has some interesting thoughts on the centre ground needing to be radicalised - trumpian anti-trump debate.
Boris Johnson said he would rather be “dead in a ditch” than seek a further delay
Given the various known and inferred funders a different interpretation might be that he will be found dead in a ditch if he doesn’t deliver a no deal?
According to BBC "Boris Johnson will send a letter to the EU asking for a Brexit delay if no deal is agreed by 19 October, according to government papers submitted to a Scottish court."
PM BoJo and Tories will certainly be "dead in a ditch" if there is further delay and not out by 31 Oct. 🤣
Might be a dumb question but how do the mechanics of asking for an extension actually go?
Can he ask, the EU say ‘yeah sure’ but then he goes “thanks but we’re leaving anyway”?
Ie: can the government just take us out anyway or do parliament or the EU actually have to ‘do’ something for us to be out?
amedias
Member
Might be a dumb question but how do the mechanics of asking for an extension actually go?Can he ask, the EU say ‘yeah sure’ but then he goes “thanks but we’re leaving anyway”?
Ie: can the government just take us out anyway or do parliament or the EU actually have to ‘do’ something for us to be out?
legaal eagles on twitter have been saying no he cant just ask to leave its alla bout that Padfield Principle
Padfield (1968)13 established the principle that there are no unfettered discretions in public law, and that statutory powers must be used to promote the policy and objects of the statute, to be determined by the courts as a matter of law. Much of what follows can be traced back to that fundamental principle
But there are other ways.....
All this talk about Hungary vetoing the deal is pretty outlandish, Orban would face a huge backlash if they vetoed a deal & threw Ireland under the bus
that said Johnson's Spectator mates & andrew nneil have been chummy with Orban's rather unpleasant anti-semitic propaganda people
https://twitter.com/jpublik/status/986283182558535681
All this talk about Hungary vetoing the deal is pretty outlandish, Orban would face a huge backlash if they vetoed a deal & threw Ireland under the bus
It is either them or PM BoJo and Tories under the bus or ditch. 😀
Orban would face a huge backlash if they vetoed a deal & threw Ireland under the bus
Does he care though? Only takes one of the 27 to veto an extension & its no deal & ERG are happy chappies.
If an extension is vetoed or not granted.. surely revoke A50 should be the default option?
Will this new case be known as the “Cherry on the top” case?
Actually it's the noboff case.
What hat article says is one specific allegation is over egged. However your own link shows that parts of this set of EU directives will come into place in 2020 and those parts of the directive will outlaw many of the tax evasion / avoidance schemes
First the directive has been in place for some time, 2020 is a compliance date. This is an important distinction because directives generally do not have direct force of law as it is left to the member states to introduce laws that are in compliance with the terms of the directive. This is based on the principle of subsidiarity.
Second, therefore one has to look to the status of the UK's compliance with the directive and that is the bit of the article you chose not to reproduce because it explains how the UK has complied or is in the process of complying with the directive's terms. This has not proved a particularly onerous task as the UK has had rules in the areas covered for many years. Unfortunately my collection of Annotated Finance Acts only extends to 1985 so I can't reproduce the first iteration of the CFC regime introduced in 1984 if my recollection is correct. However, the first iteration of the exit charge was introduced in 1988. The introduction starts with the following description on page 9
Company migration When a company ceases to be resident in the UK, there is a deemed disposal at market value of all its assets except the UK trade assets of any UK branch or agency of the company...
Third, these proposals weren't originally formulated by the EU, they are based on work carried out by the OECD, which is the key body when it comes to organizing international tax co-operation. Their model tax treaty and commentary thereon is given great weight by any court interpreting Double Tax Conventions. The UK is of course an independent and proactive member of the OECD and will continue to be after Brexit. Therefore as the OECD develops further recommendations you can expect them to continue to be implemented in the UK.
Much the same analysis applies to the money laundering stuff which is based on the work of the Financial Action Task Force, of which again the UK is an independent and proactive member.
TL/DR TJ is talking out of his arse as usual.
Does he care though? Only takes one of the 27 to veto an extension & its no deal & ERG are happy chappies.
EU already threatening to withhold funding die to Hungary & Poland attack on judiciary
But both countries have promised to use veto to protect each others funding
Vetoing extension could jeopardize that, would be a very reckless move by Orban
As unlikely as it is… the EU saying no to an extension perhaps should be welcomed. We can than “stand up to the EU”, take back control, Revoke A50, and then choose our own timetable for leaving, if we ever do. This is how we should have acted years ago. Decided here how we want to proceed, got a mandate for that from the people, and then started the countdown to leaving. We needed a PM going to the EU with a starting position backed by their government, our parliament, and the voters in a referendum. As it is, we have no plan HERE with enough support across parliament or across the country. It really doesn’t matter what the EU says, we are defeating ourselves. That we started a countdown to force ourselves to come up with something under pressure, is our own stupid faults. Most MPs made that mistake, led by poor party leaders. Stop it. Stop the clock. Go back to the EU when we can agree what we want, and can tell them and push for it.
Stop.
The.
Clock.
Mefty’s post doesn’t reflect the UK’s response to the proposed measures over the last 10 years at all. And it definitely doesn’t reflect Johnson’s response when Major.
No it is completely consistent over the last ten years we have introduced one of the most Draconian approaches to tax avoidance in the world.
. Go back to the EU when we can agree what we want, and can tell them and push for it.
That'll be never then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47779783
Taxi is right
until theres a majority in parliament itll never work
Another squirrel hunt.
No it is completely consistent over the last ten years we have introduced one of the most Draconian approaches to tax avoidance in the world.
that is utter nonsense. The UK and its dependent territories are the biggest facilitators of tax avoidance in the world and laws on it are so slack the tories and their chums just ride straight thru them
One key aspect is at the moment the various eurosceptic papers are all run by people who take advantage of the UKs slack tax avoidance and come 2020 they will not be able to do so
follow the money folks don't be taken in by smokescreens such as this. Mefty is using minutiae to obscure the larger picture
Now mefty - does the daily mail ustilise tax avoidence by being owned by a bermuda company so it pays no tax in the UK? After the EU tax avoidance directive comes fully into place in 2020 will this still be possible if we are in the EU?
https://www.accountancydaily.co/uk-overseas-territories-top-tax-haven-risk-list
Etc etc
Once again mefty is totally distorting the true picture because in his eyes no tory can do wrong and greed is good
As Bonnie Greer pointed out on last night’s Question Time, huge chunks of America identify as “Irish”
I said a little while ago to a Chicagoan fried of mine, that it seemed like every American I'd ever met claimed to be a quarter Irish. Her reply, "hey, I'm a quarter Irish!"
Q E anecdotal D.
And of course this
https://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2019/05/index-puts-uk-heart-global-tax-avoidance
"The Tax Justice Network says this is at the root of the $500bn in corporate tax dodged each year globally by multinationals.
Moreover, it places the lion’s share of responsibility on the UK, which has effectively outsourced corporate tax avoidance to a “spider’s web” of Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies."
"The first such study of this scope, the corporate tax haven index ranks countries by their complicity in “havenry” based on scores reflecting the degree to which they enable avoidance.
"It lists the top 10 offenders as: the Virgin Islands, Bermuda, and the Cayman Islands – all British territories – and Jersey, a British dependency; The Netherlands, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Singapore, the Bahamas and Hong Kong.
These jurisdictions alone are responsible for more than half (52%) of the world’s corporate tax avoidance risks, the index indicates."
The top 10 countries that have done the most to proliferate corporate tax avoidance and break down the global corporate tax system are:
1. British Virgin Islands (British territory)
2. Bermuda (British territory)
3. Cayman Islands (British territory)
4. Netherlands
5. Switzerland
6. Luxembourg
7. Jersey (British dependency)
8. Singapore
9. Bahamas
10. Hong Kong"
Etc etc
David Camerons family fortune is built on tax evasion and avoidence
Remember the panama papers?
I think that lot rather proves my point.
Now the Barclay brothers who run a load of eurosceptic press - where are they based again? How much UK tax do they pay? will they still be able to avoid paying tax after the directives come into force fully in 2020?
arron Banks - yes another one who made his fortune thru tax evasion thru his isle of man bank
Rees Mogg - you guessed it - another serial tax avoider.
Andera Lothesome - guess what
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/09/brexiters-put-money-offshore-tax-haven
follow the money
Ok Ok - I am now labouring the point but Meftys bullshine needs to be called out for what it is
Not just tax avoidance. Money laundering too.
To be fair, it isn’t ‘deliberate’ in the truest sense of the word. But lax, cowboy rules combined with under-resourcing on the enforcement side means an open field.
Bit like all the arsewipes I see using their phones whilst driving every day. Starve enforcement of resource and you never catch anyone, whilst emboldening others.
We might learn one day, you never know......
PM BoJo and Tories will certainly be “dead in a ditch” if there is further delay and not out by 31 Oct
Tell me when and where so I can come and gloat pay my respects.
I don’t disagree with mefty but my slant is that the EU are more likely to enforce or force the UK to actually properly police it.
As I bang on having a law and enforcing it are subtly different.
I think there are many reasons people are bank rolling brexit, disaster capitalism and and not having the EU directives seem a valid reason whereas the populist rants of taking back control seem hollow.
The only answer I have been able to come up with to our favourite “so what will you be able to do after we’ve left that you can’t do now?”
Is to not have to worry that my shell tax avoidance money/laundering company Would be scrutinised 🙂
(Edit - assuming hard Brexit an no transition)
PM BoJo and Tories will certainly be “dead in a ditch” if there is further delay and not out by 31 Oct
Tell me when and where so I can come and
gloatpay my respects.
Perfectly fine to gloat or to p*ss on them if they try to reheat ex-PM May's deal. 😀
No Deal is the only way. 😁
I think no deal is looking less likely by the day.
Parliament has ruled it out, it's legally ruled out via the Benn legislation and there are court cases in the pipeline that will strengthen this.
Unless PM Cummings has managed to find a unicorn it seems the worst case scenario is now a May's deal 1.1
Not ideal but I can cope with that.