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i guess dazh will be along soon to help us deal with that one ^ and tell us it’s an unconscious outpouring of pent up frustration and they are just misunderstood and left behind by us, the elite. We just need to sit them down with a nice cup of sweet milky builders tea and talk through their legitimate grievances with a British made mr Kipling french fancy whilst casually dropping into conversation editorial quotes from the tabloids till they become sleepy with mental exhaustion.
Or we could invite them all to a “Brexit means Brexit“ rally at the white cliffs of Dover with the promise of free liver and onion faggots “over there ->” and watch them throw their bloated carcasses from the cliffs like the lemmings they truly are thus solving all our problems.
Then we can break out the fancy loose leaf teas and coffees along with our baklava, cannoli and sfogliatella* pastries and toast our victory with a suitably aged grappa ....huzzah!
* must admit I am very fond of the pistachio sfogliattella from Quattro Venti in Ayr, guess I really am elitist eh? 😉
It’s indicative of how low we’ve gone in this country over the past 40 years that many people feel so angry they’re willing to vote against their best interests in a desperate attempt to shake up the status quo. They very rarely get a chance to directly change things so it’s understandable that they took they chance when it was presented to them.
Calling leaver voters names, patronising them, or dismissing their grievances only sends them into the hands of the nutters. The only way to avoid the no deal nightmare (either now or in the future), is to change their minds, it always has been.
Counter insurgency 101: You can’t change the minds of the radicalised, you can only change the minds of those on the fence. You then kill the leadership and as many grunts as possible and destroy their supply and communication infrastructure.
Dealing with brexiteers is no different to fighting a counter insurgency (apart from the killing).
Oh and I have no idea where people got the idea their lives are shit, it’s a lot better than everyone else’s. The minimum wage as a proportion of the median income is one of the highest in the world and has only been getting better.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47699571
Stop infantilising the working classes and encouraging their ethno grievance-mongering.
Wow that is scary and sad in equal measure, how have we got to this place?
I was asked this morning at breakfast how much money it would take me to betray my country, with the inference being that there was a state actor behind the scenes of Johnson's actions paying him off.
Ok, it seems almost common knowledge that the man is a narcissist that wanted the top job and was willing to do anything to get it, who has lied and was paid a boat-load of cash to spout inflammatory opinion by a tabloid broadsheet, but do you really think that he is being paid off to the tune of millions by a nation state to weaken the EU, or is this a purely disaster capitalist move?
Whilst I'm sure BoJo will benefit financially from Brexit I think he's in it mostly for the power trip of being PM and having lots of people fawn over him. The people wielding the real power behind the scenes are the ones that will be making millions.
but do you really think that he is being paid off to the tune of millions by a nation state to weaken the EU
I think a lot of finances for the Brexit campaign came from American and Russian sources, and that bojo is aware of that, he is happy to allow those foreign interests to influence UK policy so that he will profit in other ways, and doesn't care that it damages the UK as a whole. Think of it as the Blatter blueprint for his actions in FIFA.
https://research.hks.harvard.edu/publications/getFile.aspx?Id=1686
Little support found for economic grievances driving brexit, it was much more about culture and immigration - driven by those with more populist-authoritarian attitudes.
Ties in with the paper I posted a while back on the current wave of western populism being driven by ethnic grievances.
I am shocked, truly shocked that Daz is completely wrong on this being about the noble left behind working classes.
To be fair, Dazh is mainly focused on his class war against those his prejudice assumes are middle management IT professionals whom form the elite of the UK state. So give him some slack. You can’t expect him to have a total grasp on why everyone voted for, or against Brexit.
or is this a purely disaster capitalist move?
This is indeed a disaster capitalist project, but this is just the beginning of it. Think of Brexit as the starting gun for their project.
Once outside the EU and no longer covered by the protection offered by the ECJ, The ECHR and EU environmental and workers rights, it's open season!
When they talk of a 'bonfire of red tape' they're not kidding. They want to tear up workers rights and environmental standards in a race to the bottom. They also want to torch 'the post-war settlement' completely, privatising the NHS and doing away with 'the state' so that all it does is award contracts for the most basic of public services to private suppliers.
This will then enable them to slash taxes for corporations an the rich to essentially turn the country into a tax haven, handily placed off the coast of the EU. As far as workers rights are concerned we'll become a regulation-free sweatshop economoy
To do this they must create chaos. No matter what they say (in public), they know a No Deal Brexit will provide just that.
Just look at the players involved. Those who are determined to see Brexit At All Costs. This is a long term project to re-shape our society completely which will do away with the European social democratic traditions and make us a mini-US.
Obviously, the top 1% (Johnsons mates) will make unimaginable sums of money out of this. The whole thing about shorting the pound to make billions is just the beginning. For the super-rich, Brexit will be the gift that never stops giving
kimbers
Subscriber
Crispin Odey is going to be very happy
I read an news article on him over the weekend where he tried to shoot down the notion that he was not looking to profit from the pound/ business failing post Brexit. His defence was based on his hedge fund having 50.2% of the book based on long positions, and only 49.8% was taking a short position 🙄
i guess dazh will be along soon to help us deal with that one
Nope. I ignore shite like that, and I don't know why everyone else doesn't. TBH if you think that sort of rubbish is representative of the wider leave supporting group then you're as much at the extremes of this argument as they are. The culture warriors are all as bad as eachother as far as I'm concerned, and for some entirely bizarre reason the normally sensible majority are giving them the attention they want.
Dazh is mainly focused on his class war against those his prejudice assumes are middle management IT professionals
I am a middle-management IT professional so I've no idea where you've got that from.
I was chatting yesterday with a guy in the village I like. He rides bikes has done a few LEJOGs since he retired a bit early, is starting an open university course in environmental studies and most importantly had a custom tourer built locally and road the Tour Divide last year. Top bloke.
Turns out he is very probrexit.
I'm amazed and find it hard to process. As we were in a public social situation I didn't start an argument, but blimey.
I'd be quite interested to meet people like that - hopefully, they'll be able to help me understand why they think that way.
I cannot see any good reasons to leave, but he perhaps can, and might help me understand why so many people think it will be good, rather than "just wanting it over.
Where do I look for those opinions, because I confess to being in a bit of a remainder bubble...
His defence was based on his hedge fund having 50.2% of the book based on long positions, and only 49.8% was taking a short position
To be fair, to a simpleton like me, isn't that the definition of hedging?* If No Deal happens, his shorts do well, his longs don't, and vice versa?
*I am not a fund manager, so shoot me down with your knowledge-based answers!
Odey is still repugnant, obvs.
Johnson in 2016:
There will be no border in Ireland
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35692452
Johnson yesterday:
There will have to be a border in Ireland
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49890199
I'm more impressed with the lead story on the BBC. Finally! A story accompanied by a nice picture of good old Boris, rolling up his sleeves, sitting in front of his Apple Mac (TM) computer, drinking a nice mug of tea (with his picture on the front), looking just like an ordinary bloke from down the road, I mean that's the kind of ordinary guy I can get behind on this whole thing, he seems just like you and me, he knows what's what with this country and what we want.
BBC impartiality my arse.
His "plans" for a different solution to the irish border are being shot down in flames before they have even got across the channel
Quelle surprise.
C'est de la merde, possiblemente.
This whole thing has been a farce. They're running down the clock to no deal. They know they can't just sit there doing nothing, as that would be too obvious. So they're putting a series of unicorn-based nonsense before the EU, to be immediately rejected
This has the added bonus of these rejections all help reinforce their 'it's not us, it's them, being all unreasonable and punishing us' narrative
The Brexiteer morons will lap it up, obviously
Liz Truss is on Five Live giving it just that narrative at the moment, and saying 'we will definitely be leaving on the 31st... blah... blah... blah'
She's a very, very bright lady. It's nice to know such fearsome intellect is at the heart of government
unicorn-based nonsense
It's not a unicorn....
Finally! A story accompanied by a nice picture of good old Boris, rolling up his sleeves, sitting in front of his Apple Mac (TM) computer, drinking a nice mug of tea (with his picture on the front), looking just like an ordinary bloke from down the road, I mean that’s the kind of ordinary guy I can get behind on this whole thing, he seems just like you and me, he knows what’s what with this country and what we want.
For balance, they should surprise him with the cameras while he's porking some dodgy associate on a bed covered in taxpayer cash.
Conference week is always a free hit for the party concerned because the BBC have to cover goings-on, and the party controls the environment for the footage they'll need to do so.
I cannot see any good reasons to leave
There are loads of reasons to leave. They may not seem good to you but that is subjective and depends on what you see as worthwhile or not.
For example controlling Freedom of Movement is a good reason to many people. The fact very little would change afterwards is irrelevant, the control aspect is important to them.
Add up all the reasons people have and you can see why they voted leave. They may not have done cost/benefit analysis or looked at it in depth but people don't typically do that.
If you have a democracy and let people vote that is the risk.
Once outside the EU and no longer covered by the protection offered by the ECJ, The ECHR and EU environmental and workers rights, it’s open season!
Point of order, the HCHR is nothing to do with the EU other than having the word "European" in its name.
(The image at the top of the page is wrong too - treason hasn't been punishable by death for a couple of decades now.)
Interesting point raised today by gina Miller
the european withdrawal act specifically prohibits any north south border controls. so If Johnsons plan involves any which it would appear to do then its open to legal challenge!
I was asked this morning at breakfast how much money it would take me to betray my country, with the inference being that there was a state actor behind the scenes of Johnson’s actions paying him off.
Ok, it seems almost common knowledge that the man is a narcissist that wanted the top job and was willing to do anything to get it, who has lied and was paid a boat-load of cash to spout inflammatory opinion by a tabloid broadsheet, but do you really think that he is being paid off to the tune of millions by a nation state to weaken the EU, or is this a purely disaster capitalist move?
All of the above.
Being generous he never intended to win the referendum, he got promoted based on incompetence and has had the help of powerful (and probably dangerous) masters.
The more help he receives the deeper in debt he becomes.
There are loads of reasons to leave. They may not seem good to you but that is subjective and depends on what you see as worthwhile or not.
For example controlling Freedom of Movement is a good reason to many people. The fact very little would change afterwards is irrelevant, the control aspect is important to them.
Add up all the reasons people have and you can see why they voted leave. They may not have done cost/benefit analysis or looked at it in depth but people don’t typically do that.
If you have a democracy and let people vote that is the risk.
What seems completely missing though is the complete lack of any commitment to what would be delivered (in this case with FOM control) or expectation that this should be provided.
Take FOM (as per your example).."We will have an Australian style points system"
but I don't see any document defining this in detail. Brexiters seem happy it will be a points system that works for THEM.... no-need to see the details.
To make this even BIGGER .. we have been promised trade deals. Why haven't we seen the agreed trade deals? I know we can't sign them yet but nothing stops anyone with access to the foreign countries writing them and getting an agreement in principal. (Boris or Nigel could have done this*... they could have gone to Trump or any one of these countries just can't wait to sign a trade deal and written one...) Yet they have been to India and been told "we want visas" and the US "we want the NHS and chlorinated chicken" and failed to produce a deal they would dare share with the electorate.
*You don't need any official capacity to get a piece of paper from a keen prospective partner. Nigel for example could have returned with a deal in principal ... a "if I am elected I will sign our half"
Because every potential trade partner is waiting to see just how fubared the country is after B-Day, before dictating their terms to us. Imagine a vulture, circling a weakly grunting wildebeest lying on the plains, nursing a broken leg from a failed bid to cross the crocodile infested river unharmed.
Right now, because of the strong possibility of impending no-deal, we have no leverage, none, nada.
YouGov (@YouGov) Tweeted:
In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?
Right - 40%
Wrong - 49%
https://t.co/bMZl9iUJ4f https://t.co/GxJ9kV37dN https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1179345301179715585?s=17
Because every potential trade partner is waiting to see just how fubared the country is after B-Day, before dictating their terms to us. Imagine a vulture, circling a weakly grunting wildebeest lying on the plains, nursing a broken leg from a failed bid to cross the crocodile infested river unharmed.
Right now, because of the strong possibility of impending no-deal, we have no leverage, none, nada.
Yeah I get that BUT
they (Brexit supporters) are telling me countries will be falling over themselves to do a fantastic deal with us ... it doesn't seem to worry them at all that we didn't get any offers they dare share...or that if we actually had one it would be a hard bargaining chip to use with the EU ???
OR .. "we can control our own borders with an Australian style points system" ...
So where exactly is this points system?
"well we can't do it now the EU stops us"
"Yeah (perhaps)... but surely it must already be written - why didn't they share it and show us how it will work?
"we will write it after Brexit"... "the most important thing is to leave"
If PM BoJo put a re-heat ex-PM May's deal to the Parliament this time I am afraid all the remain MPs will vote it through, because they fear if they don't vote for it this time their remain hope with a deal will be taken away. In this case they will blame for not voting for the deal and as a consequences will be voted down in the next GE. Therefore, they have to tow the PM BoJo line and know their place by voting it through. In the next GE PM BoJo will win hands down having deliver "a deal" (assuming he gets a deal with EU).
The only way the opposition will come out of this smelling like a rose is to hope EU rejects whatever PM BoJo propose then go for a GE. At least this gives the oppositions a chance to win in the next GE.
Interesting time ...
p/s: any deal PM BoJo gets means the opposition will not have a chance to win any GE for at least 3 terms. See ... you wish for a deal you will be out in the cold for a very long time.
p/s: any deal PM BoJo gets means the opposition will not have a chance to win any GE for at least 3 terms. See … you wish for a deal you will be out in the cold for a very long time.
even by your own standards chewy, thats bonkers
even by your own standards chewy, thats bonkers
The only issue that unites the remain oppositions now is the fear of no deal but if PM BoJo takes away that fear i.e. achieve a deal with EU, then the remain oppositions will disintegrate as they have no more common cause to go for.
Forget about the oppositions' policy that will be promised to the people in the next GE because nobody will really give them a thought as they are still riding the PM BoJo waves. (if PM BoJo can make good his promise as in Tory Conference ...)
mrmonkfinger
Member
BBC impartiality my arse.
On the same day, it was referred to as the "Brexiteer Broadcasting COmpany" in a speech at the conference. Funny old world.
I forgot just how good/prescient "The Day Today" was, this could be our very own Brexit minister Stephen Barclay
The only issue that unites the remain oppositions now is the fear of no deal but if PM BoJo takes away that fear i.e. achieve a deal with EU,
the deal he's mocked up is a non-starter, even if by some miracle he got it through- the EU wont agree & even with the DUP & ERG he has still has no majority! , he's polling 10% behind May!!, many of those that would back him to leave would not trust him beyond that (see Labour leavers & scots)
they (Brexit supporters) are telling me countries will be falling over themselves to do a fantastic deal with us
The only things that will be listened to is any matching opinions that confirms their membership of the Leave Club is the right and proper thing to do.
Facts will not be considered, ever, don't bother.
the deal he’s mocked up is a non-starter, even if by some miracle he got it through- the EU wont agree & even with the DUP & ERG he has still has no majority! , he’s polling 10% behind May!!, many of those that would back him to leave would not trust him beyond that (see Labour leavers & scots)
It will be a bad deal regardless.
The next GE should be very interesting.
so the plan is.........
1(ish - which means 2) year transition to-
NI effectively staying in the single market (EU/Ireland will take that)- but Stormont (DUP) get to vote it down if they dont like it every 4 years (that will not fly with EU / Ireland)
But NI leaves the CU and checks are carried out away from border (still requires some custons checks nearby) but most handled by technology (that doesnt yet exist) & in Irish sea (surprised DUP agreed last bit) (either way wont fly with EU as its a gift to smugglers)
IF this is the basis for further compromise & more concessions on CU were given by Johnson & control not ceded to DUP, it might even get approved by EU & maybe Ireland, cant see how Labour would vote for us out of CU & SM tho- at the mercy of Trump FTA, Would it carry enough votes with DUP, Labour leavers, Tory rebels & presumably DUP??
As I said very surprised the DUP signed up to this
Im not even sure they know what theyve agreed to!
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1179404545698516992
At same time as introducing checks between Eire and NI from what I read.
Has he managed to both break the GFA and place a border in the Irish Sea with the same plan?
But surely border checks are specifically illegal under the GFA even if parties are willing to accept them?
Not illegal as such
but the GFA was a finely balanced fudge, it only exists because of the consent given by both sides, allowing people to feel part of NI &/or ireland as they choose and all that was only really possible because Ireland & NI were part of CU & SM- wouldve been impossible to create that outside of them
It does break the governments own brexit legislation which promised no border in ireland
ahhh now I see why the DUP are down with this
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1179400445111996417
Waiting for the new Irish Border plan......
An electric moot filled with snakes
a massive new cash bung (of potentially billions) to be agreed, being called a 'New Deal for Northern Ireland'
Yeah it's in Boris' letter
The magic money tree has another bumper harvest
Sharp spikes, surely he meant moot points.
When did you swap from out to in, Eddiebaby? And why? Just curious, being willing to change your mind is a quality.
eddiebaby
Member
Out.
Posted 3 years ago
eddiebaby
Member
I was chatting yesterday with a guy in the village I like. He rides bikes has done a few LEJOGs since he retired a bit early, is starting an open university course in environmental studies and most importantly had a custom tourer built locally and road the Tour Divide last year. Top bloke.
Turns out he is very probrexit.
I’m amazed and find it hard to process. As we were in a public social situation I didn’t start an argument, but blimey.
Posted 6 hours ago
Sharp spikes, surely he meant moot points.
Oh very good indeed!
When did you swap from out to in, Eddiebaby? And why? Just curious, being willing to change your mind is a quality.
Is this your new hobby EK ? Trawling through 3yr old posts, trying to find fault. People become informed and change their minds, it happens all the time .
Is this your new hobby EK ? Trawling through 3yr old posts, trying to find fault.
Are you new here?
Are you new here?
Why, haven't you checked?
Have you changed your mind yet, Taxi?
Taxi25 is a remainer no?
Not unless he's changed his mind since the start of this thread, Molgrips.
I think this was discussed before EK. I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum.
It was stated but not discussed, Taxi. I've changed my mind too, my preference used to be remain, then soft Brexit, then hard Brexit, then no deal. It's changed to remain first followed by no deal and then anything else. That change is due to the clear attempt to gain unfair advantage through Brexit and the fact I don't see why the UK should have a banking passport if it's not in the EU, no deal avoids those two problems in the event Brexit happens which I still hope it won't, and it hasn't yet.
Things have changed and I fully understand that after three years people understand the issues better. But what made you change your mind to the point you'd now risk an argument discussing Brexit with a Brexiteer (Eddie's case)? Same goes for Eddiebaby what are the thing that have made remain more appealing than it was three years ago?
Ed, don't get personal.
Why? Will you start calling me a "prick" again, Molgrips, like you did on the iDave thread, when you were a fan and I had enough experience to see he was a charletan. How about you stop ordering people around and let them get on with discussing why they changed their minds. You have a huge history of getting personal including petty insults. I've asked some pertinent non-insulting questions, I'd be interested in the answers to. This whole thread is about freely expressed personal views, in or out and why is what the thread is all about. Or are you a mod now?
If people are changing their minds then when and why? When two ardent leavers become reaminers that's interesting.
Nobody has to explain themselves to you EK. People post as they see fit, sometimes it's their own views other times their just expressing the views of other's, views they might agree or disagree with. You seem to have a problem with that concept in particular.
I agree with your first sentence, Taxi, the questions go unanswered, no problem.
Fascinating watching the Boris speech at the conference on TV. The audience was described by Madame as a mass of middle-aged white males in blue suits with a few token women (which the camera man seemed very keen to show). Industrial quantities of lying by omisison in the content.
Oh for the Love of God its another of those plans that everyone signs then resigns the day after when they read what they've signed.
Back on to Theresa's Turd to kick the effing turd further up the road in a vain hope someone drops a solution into their lap.
Still got to actually sort out the long term Unicorn/Fairy position.
Anyway if Boris gets the MP's to vote for it and it passes he can then proceed with no deal as he doesn't have to comply with the Benn act and all he has to do is scupper the other part of the legislation that is required to actually implement the deal.
How about you stop ordering people around
It's just friendly advice, that's all.
Edukator - you do come over as antagonistic and preachy ( I know - pot kettle black)
Anyway if Boris gets the MP’s to vote for it and it passes he can then proceed with no deal as he doesn’t have to comply with the Benn act
And of course the MPs know this and have been sharpening their knives for ages.
Just catching up on today's offerings.
1. Brexit Patriots. So if 10% turn out that's 180000. That means there are 1.8m in total. What happening to the 17.4m?
2. chewkw, it's "TOE the line".
Good night.
This proposal is of course complete rubbish and does not even come close to meeting the EUs red lines. they are just being polite / playing the game of pass the blame.
They’re just making it look like they’re doing something while they run down the clock to no deal, which has been their preferred destination from day 1.
They don’t want a deal. Never did. But they can’t just sit doing nothing forever - or until the end of October.
They’ve done nothing for weeks, then offered up something they knew would be immediately knocked back (for very good reason).
Another week closer to their No Deal nirvana
“The reaction of the Brexit steering group was not positive”
Guy Verhofstadt, European Parliament’s Brexit Steering group chair says Britain’s latest Brexit proposals do not have “the safeguards Ireland needs” https://bbc.in/2n5AgrG
Land border for goods? Sea border for goods? No, let’s give the people and businesses of Northern Ireland both to deal with! And let’s buy DUP support by giving them a veto on those remaining measures to keep goods moving that we’re not tearing up ourselves. When it comes to maintaining harmony with the rest of Ireland… you can trust the DUP… honest.
The DUP are also on board because they can effectively veto the alignment of NI with the EU potentially, Beccle it even starts or after 4 years.
That's ignoring the fact that Stormont is still suspended. Lol
So yeah, as others have said. It is just a bs offer to run the clock down whilst trying to look "sincere".
Another week closer to their No Deal nirvana
There’s a very straightforward and certain way to stop it, but remain heroes like Swinson, Soubry and Grieve have other priorities.
The DUP are also on board because they can effectively veto the alignment of NI with the EU potentially, Beccle it even starts or after 4 years.
That’s ignoring the fact that Stormont is still suspended. Lol
So yeah, as others have said. It is just a bs offer to run the clock down whilst trying to look “sincere”.
The Guardian is saying that Bojos deal has some backing from useful idiots within the Labour Party, if he gets it through Parliament and then the EU reject it - what then?
The problem we have is Dominic Cummings.
Year Zero.
Dominic Cummings is as much of a Conservative as Pol Pot was. Left or Right means nothing to a true revolutionary. Break it, re-make it.
Breaking things is the easy part.
We broke it apart twice over the course of the previous century - putting it back together, shakily then stabily, defines us.
Making things takes vision, demands compromise, realises the ambitions of people with no axes to grind - builds a community of equals from the ashes of conflict.
We got there, we made it - it might not be perfect but then what is?
We are Europeans, are we not?
Everything that is happening now needs to be filtered through a Cummings prism.
Norms are inverted, up is down, right is wrong, in is out. All is a game. All is Game Theory.
A failed prorogation is just jolly japes - did that not work? - let's try another.
The man is a danger to us all.
but remain heroes like Swinson, Soubry and Grieve have other priorities.
They cant organise themselves, too many ideas to large an ego’s. I feel remain is a dead man walking now.
Boris / May’s deal will pass with maybe another tweak. Then we can all just finally get on with our lives.
JOhnsons proposals will not get thru the EU, not a chance. NOt even with tweaks so parliament can vote for it if it wants ( something I consider highly unlikely) but that is not what matters - the EU will not accept this even as a starting point.
Its also illegal under UK law!
JOhnsons proposals will not get thru the EU, not a chance.
They will, not in the current form but they will. Boris has the new leader of the EU on his side, Macron. He wants us out of the EU as much as Boris wants us out so he can continue the EU project un-hindered.
Pretty sure the DUP have only provided support for it as they no neither parliament or the EU can agree to it's terms, and even if somehow they did they can just veto it at Stormont (if that ever reconvenes).
I guess the EU have no choice but to say they'll consider it carefully, otherwise they just fall into Cumming's trap of being blamed for the inevitable no deal. I do wish someone high up in the EU had the balls to just say it it how it is, call the BS out, draw attention to the hedge fund backers and make it clear it's the Tories about the **** over the UK not the EU. Sadly it won't happen
call the BS out, draw attention to the hedge fund backers
While dribbling and wearing a tinfoil hat?