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The likes of Tesco have decimated the “nation of shopkeepers” we used to have ~40 years ago, but unless you happen to be a shopkeeper it’s a net benefit to everyone else. People vote with their feet, if they’d all rather pay more for their weekly shop and spend half their Saturday trailing round a dozen different shops then we’d have boycotted the big supermarket chains. But we haven’t, because most people seemingly are all in favour of supporting local businesses until it hits them in the wallet.
It's not a net benefit if we lose in other ways like cheap supply chains from supermarkets suppressing suppliers; more pollution from out of town drives, broken communities from travelling further afield, lower wages due to anti competitive practices of the supermarkets, exploitation of non-local labour etc.
It's a race to the bottom driven by the consumer and yes we are partly in control of that because we can choose not to shop there.
But there is no point pretending it's a net benefit when there downsides are more than just the price saving. Perhaps not always as tangible.
Until we find the end-game (the collapse) of a 'market' we might be in favour of them but time and time again we shown how a market can distort things and get carried away and ultimately serves less and less people in their best interest as we push for lower and lower prices.
Also given the cost of living in this country and specifically house prices - how do the wages of the average supermarket keep that afloat - more debt? Well we know where that it is always heading don't we.
It's fine being competitive (and I'm a great believer with tradesman you generally get less not more when you pay a lower price) but you always have to ask at what cost to the broader economy. And is it truly competitive or is there a distortion in the price you are comparing.
Soooo Johnson's long gestating plan is some custom posts 5 miles either side of the border
Which will never fly
So no deal it is?
Esther McVey is the perfect demonstration of Dunning-Kruger in action.
So no deal it is?
I am going for Extension signed by someone on Johnson's behalf.
and spend half their Saturday trailing round a dozen different shops
It’s a small disagreement in the grand scheme of things. But I don’t t think most/many/some would see the shop taking longer. I can do all of my food shopping on the local high street which includes greengrocer, fishmonger, bakers, butchers, hard wear store, post office, and a Co Op (no genuine general store corner shops left) for everything else. We can get round these quicker than by going to the nearest supermarket including travel time. It helps being a small town.
no it’s not a rich place full to bursting with middle class elites and hipsters. If you view where I live on the Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation map, I’m in a big patch of red.
Expensive way to shop when an option for a supermarket is Lidl/Aldi.
The likes of Tesco have decimated the “nation of shopkeepers” we used to have ~40 years ago, but unless you happen to be a shopkeeper it’s a net benefit to everyone else. People vote with their feet, if they’d all rather pay more for their weekly shop and spend half their Saturday trailing round a dozen different shops then we’d have boycotted the big supermarket chains. But we haven’t, because most people seemingly are all in favour of supporting local businesses until it hits them in the wallet.
I am just back from the netherlands where they have used local planning to prevent the spread of large supermarkets and out of town shopping centres. The result - the town centres are still full of useful shops and losts of footfall of shoppers. Tesco does ot even operate in the netherlands and their monoplolistic tactics do not work there
Supermarkets / out of town shopping are only advantageous for those with cars. the dominence of them destroys town centres and high streets hence to continual bleating about empty shops on the high street.
Switzerland isn’t in the EU.
I know mate that's why I posted it as an example of the red tape we might face in the services industry post-Brexit.
I'm in Spain today, and all I had to do was book a flight and hotel.
kerley
I am going for Extension signed by someone on Johnson’s behalf.
Possibly Nobile Justicium?
The Brexiteers are just going to love Scotland if that happens...
Sorry @molgrips, I thought you were pointing out that the barriers, cost and hassle already exist. My misunderstanding.
Anyway, the point still stands that freedom to work across borders benefits our service based economy, and all of us living here… too many people view it as a cost rather than a major benefit for the UK. Depressing that Labour as well as the Conservatives are sticking to their redline of ending that freedom, rather than explaining why we need it.
Joris Bonson (as Mrs Binners has now taken to calling him) was just interviewed on radio 4.
Its quite clear that any border proposals (which he still refused to give any details about) Are the same unicorn based nonsense that they were when David Davis was spouting 'because...erm... technology'
The EU will throw it straight out, of course, which is exactly what they want, obviously
Another worrying addition to the toxic narrative being espoused by Mr Cummings this morning is the statement that if the EU grants an extension, the UK will behave in a 'mutinous' manner. So trying to get the EU to reject an extension if they are legally forced to request one
I really do just despair at their pathetic world war 2 rhetoric
I saw Cummings drawing a picture of the prophet Mohammed and doing a poo on it.
Esther McVey is the perfect demonstration of Dunning-Kruger in action.
Yep. Those new fangled 3D architects building houses in 3D is a revolution.
It does, however, beg the question...can 2D architects only design flats?
I am going for Extension signed by someone on Johnson’s behalf.
'Nob off' action all ready underway in Scotland, funded by a renewable energy company owner and represented by Jo Maugham's legal group.
He's here all week folks!
Utter * idiots who deserve to be dragged out of their insular existence and tarred/feathered/thrown in a * pit.
Idiotic comment TBH. How terrible that others don't share your lofty enlightenment, and how very dare they!
It's all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances? Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances. Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
What he said.
Save your ire for those born to riches, have lived in many countries, have had the most expensive elite education … and generally have the world as their oyster … and have used the people who voted Leave to help their richest of friends further enrich themselves and to further their own king of the world play boy fantasies.
Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
Posted 7 minutes ago
I agree, but have some discussions with leavers on twitter or facebook & it will soon descend into conspiracy theories, abuse and threats of violence, it becomes easy to consider leavers stupid
Franing the Benn act as 'surrender' definitely helps with that, even if you show them how its not surrendering control to the EU (its to parliament) Johnson knows exactly what he's doing & its poisoning the country
Soooo Johnson’s long gestating plan is some custom posts 5 miles either side of the border
Cos a customs post 5 miles away isn't a border post. Brilliant!
I agree, but have some discussions with leavers on twitter or facebook & it will soon descend into conspiracy theories, abuse and threats of violence, it becomes easy to consider leavers stupid
Of course it does. That's because people say stuff on the internet they wouldn't dare to say in real life, and also because in general humans find it impossible to admit they were wrong or tolerate dents to their pride. If I talk about brexit with leavers I ask questions about why they're pissed off, invariably that leads to them acknowledging that the problems are to do with UK policy not our EU membership, and I'll then leave it there in the hope it makes them think rather than press home the point that they were wrong. Obviously many leavers are lost causes, but even then the best thing to do is acknowledge their grievances but agree to disagree on the solution. The only ones I'll happily shout down are the overt racists or far right sympathisers, but thanfully I don't come across many of them.
My colleague, who's from South Armagh, has just listened to the proposals and noted the locations that would mean setting up customs infrastructure in... Crossmaglen, Newry, Bessbrook.
Good luck with that, Boris. I remember the enforcing of border controls in those areas went really, really well last time
Its quite terrifying the willful ignorance of these morons. They seem to have little or no interest in the feelings stirred up by this and even lesss interest about the potential consequences
Supermarkets / out of town shopping are only advantageous for those with cars.
Or internet connections, bus routes...
Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances.
Pre-referendum I would have agreed with this. Hell, I was one of them.
However, having spent the intervening three years trying to educate myself and trying to help others along the same path only to be met with "project fear I'm not listening lalalala if you love the EU so much why don't you move there democracy sovereignty blue passports foreigners" I can only conclude that people still ignorant to the facts today is because they want to be. That's nothing to do with personal circumstance, it's simply wilful ignorance.
Does Johnson realise that border controls are to catch people doing stuff they shouldn't?
VAT scam? that'll be lane 4 please.
VAT-scam and Robbin' ?
That’s nothing to do with personal circumstance, it’s simply wilful ignorance.
You're assuming they've all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven't. They voted, then moved on to other things. That's what most people do with politics. 3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven't done what they promised. As I've said many times, this is a bigger issue to them than whether brexit is the right or wrong thing to do, and it reinforces whatever complaints they thought were valid before the referendum. So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won't trust it now.
3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven’t done what they promised.
They're wrong about that too
Because the parties have done exactly what they said in their 2017 manifestos
It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances? Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances. Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
We've had 3 years of this **** , there's no excuse for not being informed at this moment in time. I can understand those who got duped in the first ref as it was a persuasive, powerfully emotive argument for an exciting, different future and remain had nothing but dry facts and the status quo, but now???
Are leavers not seeing this message -
those born to riches, have lived in many countries, have had the most expensive elite education … and generally have the world as their oyster … and have used the people who voted Leave to help their richest of friends further enrich themselves and to further their own king of the world play boy fantasies
because as a "remainer", it's in my face 24/7.
Useful idiot doesn't even cover it if you're still a "leaver".
Because the parties have done exactly what they said in their 2017 manifestos
Cameron clearly promised that he would implement the result, and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do. As much as we'd all like to deny this simple fact or get around it with 'it was only advisory' loopholes, I'm afraid it happened. I know how you all like clear messages, you hammer the labour party repeatedly for supposedly not having one, but there's nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
dazh:It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances?
What does my personal circumstances have to do with calling out utter populist mass idiocy on a scale that will affect this country for years?. The brexit vote has already impinged upon my health due to a cancellation of a medical trial (secondary progressive ms) so don't get me ****ing started on personal circumstances.
taxi25
People think they earn more than their taxi driver.
Which makes sense ... or why would you pay for a taxi
- on a regular basis
Of course you have to pay tax, you have to pay a controller etc. and I have to pay you with money I paid tax on. You have to drive to where I am and then drive to the next pickup so your time must be correspondingly cheaper than I value my time to make this economic
- on a regular basis</ul.
Of course if 4 people split a taxi it's different.
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t.
Not in my experience, they are watching every move every day. The main difference is they trust the Mail/Express/Right Wing think tanks. Everyone else is liar, or a fool who believes in lies.
Joris Bonsons border proposals have just been referred to by an EU negotiator who's seen them as 'a fairytale full of unicorns'
It looks increasingly like they're not remotely serious about a negotiated solution and are just running down the clock to a no-deal Brexit.
I don't doubt for a minute that between now and then we'll need to be ready for all manner of dubious stunts from Cummings to get us there
Joris Bonson (as Mrs Binners has now taken to calling him) was just interviewed on radio 4.
I was on the way to work with that on, it did not put me in a good frame of mind.
We're very clearly crashing out.
My favourite bit was when he said "This So called Surrender act". Eh? Hang on Boris, "So called" by you! ya twazzler! He isn't going to moderate himself anytime soon, it's just a game and so far he is winning...
His real genius (if you can call it that), is the ability to wind up the rhetoric and adopt just the right divisive, non-conciliatory phrase at just the right moment. He's try to keep everyone at each others throats right up until it's too late, that point is approaching fast...
so don’t get me **** started on personal circumstances
None of us have the right to criticise you for your many asterisks in that case. But, if you can, please stay angry with the wilful deceivers and seducers, not the wilfully deceived and seduced. It’s the only way out of this mess. We need more people to see what Johnson & Farage and others are up to, and to reject it, rather than have them focus on defending their own decision 3+ years ago.
and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do
Do you mean “trigger A50 today” Corbyn? If so, perhaps even you can begin to see how he is complicit in getting us so far down this rabbit hole.
A very interesting take on the present state of the Tory Party (if that's what it even still is?) in this morning's Grauniad
The Tories have lost their ideology. Now they are merely the party of resentment
Do you mean “trigger A50 today” Corbyn?
Nope, I'm referring to the consensus there was in the referendum campaign among all leaders that the result should be implemented. Corbyn obviously got a bit excited with his knee jerk reaction and quickly railed back. I don't however remember any party leaders saying that the referendum was invalid or non-committal. If they did think that, then they should have boycotted it, then they would have firmer ground to stand on today.
Those party leaders were wrong to say that, but hey, most are now gone. Corbyn clings on. And just because “all the party leaders” talked nonsense 3+ years ago, that shouldn’t commit the rest of us to honour their foolish (or wilful) words. No one is bound to a damaging path just because political parties chose the wrong leaders after Cameron got his majority.
If Boris gets canned, will he still get a PM leaving honours list? Will we finally have a revolution if he tries to knight Cummings...?
I'm getting more and more frustrated with the BBC news coverage, in an effort to stay impartial they just play into Tory hands by not challenging them on the blindingly obvious underhand shenanigans they're pulling
I’m getting more and more frustrated with the BBC news coverage, in an effort to stay impartial they just play into Tory hands by not challenging them on the blindingly obvious underhand shenanigans they’re pulling
This morning’s was letting Johnson get away with “no one knows who drafted the surrender act” on the Today programme… despite the fact that they had earlier in the week spoken to people involved in drafting and checking the Benn act.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
Agreed.
Now, who’s proposing that?
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
I would accept that as a compromise. It has the added bonus of the brexit MEPs losing their trough.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
You mean exactly what was promised, even by Farage, right up to the point where the leave campaign 'won', whereupon it rapidly morphed into something very, very different indeed?
Do they not still get a boat-load of money for pension and stuff?
dazh
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t. They voted, then moved on to other things. That’s what most people do with politics. 3 years later the only thing they understand is that they voted for something and the politicians haven’t done what they promised. As I’ve said many times, this is a bigger issue to them than whether brexit is the right or wrong thing to do, and it reinforces whatever complaints they thought were valid before the referendum. So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won’t trust it now.
Cameron clearly promised that he would implement the result, and the other party leaders agreed that was the right thing to do. As much as we’d all like to deny this simple fact or get around it with ‘it was only advisory’ loopholes, I’m afraid it happened. I know how you all like clear messages, you hammer the labour party repeatedly for supposedly not having one, but there’s nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
The first issue was the hubris that led to the first referendum question... the actual question was meaningless without leave and do what.
This was then compounded by May...and certainly not helped by Corbin either.
Brexit means Brexit ???
Both were too terrified of actually spelling it out and too preoccupied with party.
HOWEVER: A significant number of Brexit supporters receiving their social media daily and discussing what they see. Whether they see the news or not they will be receiving an interpretation of it laced with poison.
Kelvin : if you can, please stay angry with the wilful deceivers and seducers, not the wilfully deceived and seduced.
I'm not angry with brexit voters per-se, (not that much anyway...there are some who realise they were lied too and would now vote differently) but i'm bloody livid at the rabid brexit at all costs leave means leave i want out now i knew what i what i was voting for and i want no-deal this is the end of democracy yada....yadda....yadda type of brexit voters, Despite the overwhelming evidence that it will seriously damage the economy and the utter lies that the leave side used/continue to use still shout "I want my brexit".
I live in galloway so i guess we have the hope of independence and remaining at least, then again we do have that cockwomble Alister Jack as our MP but he'll be gone next election, he was in a friends restaurant a while ago with all his guffawing toadying tory ****ers spaffing over him after a local shoot and was offered quinoa as part of a starter, his reply was "Quinoa?, thats what lesbians and poofs eat". Other members of the shooting group were making reference to "****s" in jokes
Says it all eh?
People think they earn more than their taxi driver.
Which makes sense … or why would you pay for a taxi
Which makes no sense ?? Do you mean if the taxi driver makes more than you, then you shouldn't pay him 🤔🤔
“Quinoa?, thats what lesbians and poofs eat”
Not according to some movies I've seen on the internet.
It’s all very well you being so enlightened and comfortable with our cosmopolitan and outward looking place in the world, but would you disagree that this is enabled by your own personal circumstances? Many who are ignorant to the facts about brexit are not that way because of their own laziness, but because of their upbringing, education (or lack of), employment status, and other personal circumstances. Maybe some empathy would be a better idea than getting out the pitchforks?
perhaps or perhaps when someone has a pitchfork and is calling for you to be hanged (or more likely hung) or burned alive sometimes a pitchfork is a better response than pointing out why they are wrong then being hanged or burned alive.
I am more than happy to leave the EU and fulfill the referendum as long as we are in the single market and retain freedom of movement.
That way everybody is happy.
It wouldn't be my ideal choice, but I could live with it.
The downsides would be:
Westminster control over development funds - that's traditionally been bad for anyone not in the South East.
No control of the single market, or the regulations we'd have to conform to, to remain a member.
The real downside though, as a compromise it's no things, to no people - the Hard left won't like single market or freedom of movement because it doesn't allow them to "Protect UK Jobs and conditions" in the way they like. Eastern EU countries will still under-cut workers pay, Western EU will be more competitive inside the EU for our Services sector and people from poorer EU countries will drive down wages here.
The hard right won't like Freedom of movement will allow Muslims in and Sharia law in the UK (I can't pretend they aren't thick).
The Centre-Right Tories won't like it because regulations will hurt 'efficiency' aka their ability to do exploit and do evil for cash.
The centre-left might accept it, but really they / we know it's a daft compromise. No voice, all the rules.
Also, the EU won't let us in for free, we'll end up paying at least as much as we do now, in real terms.
Daz, you're as comfortable throwing around lazy stereotypes as those you accuse, but sadly you've fallen for the brexiter rethoric that remainers won't compromise, without asking why they should. Your approach of following meekly along delivering any kind of brexit that can be achieved won't solve any of the problems the disaffected suffer, and will be the equivalent of spraying petrol on the flames, whichever way brexit goes now. The break up of the nation, everyone poorer all around, except of course the lucky few. The only thing brexit achieves is swelling the ranks of the disaffected, the final humiliation of those you purport to represent.
So even if you come up with bullet-proof case that they made the wrong decision, they won’t trust it now
You say that as though such a case isn't plain. Is that what you think?
Whatever, it's not that they won't trust it, they'll never take any interest in it. As you note, they've voted, now just want it done, and hang the expense.
Fortunately there are still some who are actively trying to steer us off the rocks, who are prepared to push back at the wreakers, and prevent disaster. I'm not holding my breath any more however.
but i’m bloody livid at the rabid brexit at all costs leave means leave i want out now i knew what i what i was voting for and i want no-deal this is the end of democracy yada….yadda….yadda
Not going to disagree with you on the rabid UKIP/brexit party goons, but I'm certain they're in the minority of leave voters and have a vastly disproportionate representation in the MSM and social media. The great majority of leavers are driven by a mixture of hopelessness and nostalgia.
It's indicative of how low we've gone in this country over the past 40 years that many people feel so angry they're willing to vote against their best interests in a desperate attempt to shake up the status quo. They very rarely get a chance to directly change things so it's understandable that they took they chance when it was presented to them.
Calling leaver voters names, patronising them, or dismissing their grievances only sends them into the hands of the nutters. The only way to avoid the no deal nightmare (either now or in the future), is to change their minds, it always has been.
You’re assuming they’ve all been watching the news every day and discussing it with their mates and following every twist and turn. They haven’t. They voted, then moved on to other things. That’s what most people do with politics.
Who exactly are you referring to as "they" here?
"They" being the bulk of the electorate, sure, absolutely right. But "they" aren't the ones on social media ranting and raving all day, that's an entirely different "they," and if they are so passionate about it then they should take their bloody fingers out of their ears and read some words.
If you're going to vociferously argue about a subject, you really should take some time to research that subject first. If you don't and instead steadfastly dismiss anything you don't want to be believed, well, it should come as no shock when people call you names.
there’s nothing clearer than what Cameron said, and the leave voters understandably expect it to be honoured.
That was in the same breath as saying he would see it through, before running away the day afterwards. Why is no-one holding that to account? Any promises Cameron may have made went with him that day.
They might expect it to be honoured, sure. But we should manage those expectations rather than go "oh, OK then."
dismissing their grievances
Funny how you should latch on to this in the last couple of pages when it's exactly what I've been telling you we should do for months.
We should absolutely listen to their grievances and do something about it. But brexit won't solve the vast majority of their grievances, indeed it will almost certainly compound them. Giving them what they think they want is irresponsible and would be doing them a disservice.
taxi25
Which makes no sense ?? Do you mean if the taxi driver makes more than you, then you shouldn’t pay him
No I mean if I pay someone more than my time is worth to do something I could do myself
-
on a regular basis
then I should do it myself. Nothing specific to Taxi's.... could be cutting the hedge or bleeding brakes, servicing a fork or fixing a dripping tap.
I don't care what you earn, I only care if that service is financially viable. Your costs are what they are... but we both pay tax and NI so most services are going to mean unless the person paying for a service takes home more per hour than the person doing the service has to charge then its cheaper to do it myself.
What you actually earn is irrelevant to me as is what I earn ... what is relevant is how much I earn/hour AFTER tax and NI vs what I have to pay for a service.
Since we are both paying tax and NI that means I need to be paid gross/hr more than the cost.
Lets take Cougar's plumber... £35-£50 for the first hour for a dripping tap .. out of which the plumber has to drive, pay tax and NI .. turn up and do a 15 min job but quite fairly charges for an hour of their time.
The plumber then has to pay Tax and NI... so if you call them out unless it saves you £50 worth of earning time after you paid for tax, NI, fuel and controller you would be financially better doing it yourself.
Quite simply would you take home more in 15 mins than the plumber charges to fix the dripping tap.
If the answer is yes then you can work 15 mins longer and pay a plumber and its economically viable... if not then you'd be better knocking off 15 mins earlier and just fixing it yourself.
The same thing goes for someone making your sandwiches or cuppa....
Lets say a cuppa costs 5p to make and takes 2 mins... but they charge £2.55 at McBucksCosta or wherever... that service is costing £75/hour... of post tax earnings.
Of course it's nice every so often to get a treat but if you buy one before work and one on the way home that's £25/wk wasted. I believe these places charge even more.
Please note: That doesn't mean I think the taxi is a rip off or the coffee shop is a rip-off... or Cougar's plumber is a rip off for that matter. They all have their own costs. I know many of the independent cafe's go bust when Star-Costa opens up.... just like a LBS and competing with CRC/Wiggle etc. they have high street costs, utilities etc.
Why are so many people are dis-satisfied with our European/UK life... IMHO because they think they have a right to all these services... or the immigrants are undercutting ??? What seems to be missing is the immigrant is walking to work and not buying expensive beverages or a prepared lunch that we seem to have adopted as a "I was born in a wealthy country right".
If the answer is yes then you can work 15 mins longer and pay a plumber and its economically viable…
Unless...you don't get paid by the hour and working 15 minutes later won't earn you any extra money
if not then you’d be better knocking off 15 mins earlier and just fixing it yourself.
Do you have the skills to do the same job as a trained professional, to the same standard, in the same amount of time? If not, you might want to take the whole afternoon off.
Unless…you don’t get paid by the hour and working 15 minutes later won’t earn you any extra money
Do you have the skills to do the same job as a trained professional, to the same standard, in the same amount of time? If not, you might want to take the whole afternoon off.
The first one is a bit of a red herring... it's either worth it to you or not.
If i scrimp and save this month I might have £50 and a dripping tap and some forks need new bushings and complete service... do I buy 20 cups of tea at £2.50, pay for the plumber or pay for a full service kit for my forks?
the second...I guess depends what the job is as it if it needs a trained professional..
If its a dropping tap I don't need to do it in the same time as I conveniently live at home... I can replace a pair of taps for £20, let alone change a washer. The time to drain takes the same time regardless of who turns the stop cock .. it won't empty quicker just because a qualified plumber turns it off... still the plumber is still cheaper at £50/hr than making a cup of tea at £75/hr
Making a sandwich or cup of tea ... I might be missing something but missing why this is a job for a trained professional? 😉
Doing a full fork service ... I'm sure I'm way slower and they cost way less per hour than the person making tea after you take away the cost of a service kit. They also have a better selection of tools than I have... However a significant part of the cost is the courier so its rarely worth sending a single item. Basic aircan/lowers clean and new oil??? Not worth the courier.
Fixing a broken boiler ... I'd reckon £50/hr can be a bargain... so back to my £50... I'll repair the tap not buy any cuppa's out for 2 months and send my forks to a professional.
I don't it's quite that simple.
Price isn't about value, but rather perceived value. At a base level, of course a service has to turn a profit. But that's not necessarily proportional to the cost.
I'm fairly confident that [insert coffee shop chain here] will know to the penny exactly how much it costs them to serve a cup of coffee, from raw ingredients to barista wages to rent of the building etc. In order to stay in business, they need to sell products higher than that base cost overall (they may sell some things at a loss even, in order to increase footfall - supermarkets are masters at this, you go in for a 99p litre of milk and come out with a 42" TV, or places like McDs who entice you in with a 99p cheeseburger knowing that the markup on soft drinks is insane).
BUT the reason they charge three quid for a cup of Joe is because they know people are willing to pay it. Their pricing will be a science, driving the maximum profit from their products. Put prices up, you get more per unit but will probably sell fewer units, it's a balancing act and I guarantee that Starbucks et al will have this calculated with astonishing precision.
Back to the plumber. £50 for a call out is a lot of money, but if every other plumber in the area is charging the same, what are you going to do?
I was sitting chatting to the dutch part of my family over the weekend - after walking around a lovely dutch town.
I have decided I am really really angry about all the brexshit nonsense. I am a european. these brexiteer shits do not speak for me or for my country.
Arrgghhhhhh!
Back to the plumber. £50 for a call out is a lot of money, but if every other plumber in the area is charging the same, what are you going to do?
I don't think that's a lot of money and I'm far from wealthy.
Opportunity costs and all.
No I mean if I pay someone more than my time is worth to do something I could do myself
Sorry yes that's perfectly sensible 👍
I don’t it’s quite that simple.
Price isn’t about value, but rather perceived value. At a base level, of course a service has to turn a profit. But that’s not necessarily proportional to the cost.
I’m fairly confident that [insert coffee shop chain here] will know to the penny exactly how much it costs them to serve a cup of coffee,
I'm sure they do... I'm also confident Joe and Jane's family coffee shop don't...but I do know that the high street rents are crippling... be it a bikeshop or a coffee shop
But anyway... I'm agreeing.
Back to the plumber. £50 for a call out is a lot of money, but if every other plumber in the area is charging the same, what are you going to do?
Fix the leaky tap myself....my perceived value of a plumber is fixing my boiler that's not working and pissing water in the middle of winter for which £50 for the first hour is a bargain if they fix it in a couple of hours.
Why is every other plumber charging the same... because they can fix your boiler if you call them out for a trivial task like a leaky tap then why would they charge less?
Who exactly are you referring to as “they” here?
I'm not talking about the white supremacists spouting rubbish on facebook about enemies of the people etc. Go to any council estate or run down northern town and you'll see exactly who I'm talking about. And not just the white people. I've no idea why remainers listen so much to people who shout very loud and then think everyone is the same. The nutters are in the minority, but they are winning support from the wider leave constituency because remainers are doing a great job at coming across as condescending elitist w******.
condescending elitist w******
Pah on Facebook I was called a presumptive ****.
I’m not talking about the white supremacists spouting rubbish on facebook about enemies of the people etc. Go to any council estate or run down northern town and you’ll see exactly who I’m talking about. And not just the white people. I’ve no idea why remainers listen so much to people who shout very loud and then think everyone is the same. The nutters are in the minority, but they are winning support from the wider leave constituency because remainers are doing a great job at coming across as condescending elitist w******.
Remainers are coming off as condescending elitist lying traitors because that is what the facebook ads tell them and it's not just remainers, it's now the traitors who want a surrender deal... in fact its anyone who doesn't just lie to them.
Promise them a unicorn and you just need to believe....and that's fine.
Question them and you are a lying traitor.
I’ve no idea why remainers listen so much to people who shout very loud and then think everyone is the same.
Who thinks this way? Many people on here have been saying that anyone claiming they have 17 million voters backing them now just because their policy platform includes leaving the EU, based on lots of people voting Leave for very different reasons with very different expectations and motivations in 2016, are the ones over simplifying for their own ends.
Fix the leaky tap myself
Of course, and it's what I'd do too. But not everyone has the ability / knowledge to do that.
The nutters are in the minority,
I don't disagree, that was kinda my point.
Go to any ... run down northern town
I don't need to, I live in one.
I’ve no idea why remainers listen so much to people who shout very loud and then think everyone is the same.
We don't, the only people who think like that is people like you who like to construct straw men arguments in order to make fictional points on the Internet. We're well aware the shouty gammons are a minority, I've been saying this for months and I even said as much in my post you're replying to.
but they are winning support from the wider leave constituency because remainers are doing a great job at coming across as condescending elitist w******.
Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly the reason. Absolutely nothing at all to do with the absolute torrent of propaganda that's been fed to them hand over fist for years.
I am sorry but you have to be really thick to still believe in the whole Leave propaganda After all that has happened in the past few months.
Lies after lies. Gaffe after gaffe.
I'm not so sure as it's down to being "thick," at least not entirely. I think most of them just want to believe it.
"Everything that's crap about your life, that's all someone else's fault" is a very attractive argument.
because remainers are doing a great job at coming across as condescending elitist w******.
Ah, your brush strokes are too broad. Come to Marlow in Bucks where my Dear 'Ole Dad lives and is the heart of the Toriest of Tory Shires, His friends will soon reveal to you that the ranks of condescending elitist ****ers are full to the brim of leavers as well.
Yeah you're gonna running down Greg's stockpile binners
It's no deal all the way, unless Ireland suddenly cave (they wont)
I'm also surprised DUP are happy with this
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1179136001647792129
Why are they calling it a deal? That requires some form of negotiation or prospect of agreement. 'No Deal fig leaf' would work better.
In the trump world a deal is doing as you're told.
Joris bonson is singing from the same book, bully, bluster, confuse.
Joris bonson hasn't realised that he can't bully, bluster and confuse 27 United counties yet.
It's quite embarrassing that he's PM.
Crispin Odey is going to be very happy
dazh:
The great majority of leavers are driven by a mixture of hopelessness and nostalgia.
That’s a very specific claim, yet also doesn’t seem to me to really explain much?
What’s the source for this claim please. And what ‘hopelessness’? And, ‘nostalgia’? For what?
It’s word salad, means **** all
And the so-called boris eu deal is nothing more than an excuse to say to the voting electorate “we tried, but the nasty eu refused to agree” therefore he gets to execute “no deal”. His eu deal is nothing more than fairy dust snorting unicorns dancing on the head of his ****
When you realise there's a heap of black money behind the Brexit campaign, you have to wonder how "grass-roots" this is:
^ jesus wept. What the **** has this country become?