Forum menu
In years to come suspect will be seen as the biggest con job ever.
That's been obvious for years.
There was a great spectator article suggesting Boris has done a deal with Macron. A deal for fishing and wine in exchange for a veto.
Comedy genius if he pulled that off.
While I'd have no doubt that Johnson would sell out our fishermen in a flash if he could..
Macron is a lot smarter than bozo !
I'd also take the word of an 'expert' over the spectator who have missed the mark time & again on Brexit!
https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1170675088406077440?s=19
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more "acceptable" than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses ?
Who say they are more acceptable? The Brexiters I have talked about it with don't think that. Immigration is bad full stop.
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more “acceptable” than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses
Hmm you suggesting Bracists aren't consistent in their racism 🙂
@kimbers, I hope you are right… but I would not rule out several EU countries saying… “you’ve had your time, now choose… WA, No Deal, or a referendum… off you go, now”…
MPs should have given themselves the option to vote to revoke in the final hour… only producing legislation that is entirely dependant on the EU extending could prove to have been a massive misjudgement…
Is that the logic?
Yes. As I understand it.
Labour change the rules so it is an option.
Momentum, and some others, feel it should have been mandatory and therefore want to always do it even if, in most cases, its just a checkbox exercise.
Whether or not its overly useful is a different question and why I avoid that level of politics. All I would note, again, though is this is completely in line with the other major parties so not really worth getting het up over and grabbing the pitchforks and torches unless they actually start voting people out.
The Brexiters I have talked about it with don’t think that. Immigration is bad full stop.
Yup. Indeed there are examples of some of the dimmer ones thinking brexit would stop those Nigerians, ****stanis etc coming to the UK.
That said there was the specific campaigning aimed at the Asian community arguing that if we left then it would be better chance of more immigration from Commonwealth countries. They had the "Save our Curry Houses" brexit campaign.
Whether or not its overly useful is a different question and why I avoid that level of politics.
Well, the trigger votes have already led to MPs leaving the party … so I guess that not everyone has your sanguine indifferent view of them.
so I guess that not everyone has your sanguine indifferent view of them.
You seem to be missing the point. As I have already said it will impact some MPs but just having it on their agenda doesnt mean much in itself.
If it wasnt Momentum policy to always run reselection then it would. As it stands though it is meaningless unless you know a lot about their local politics which I dont and I really doubt you do.
why in a Brexiteers mind are Nigerian Nurses, ****stani Doctors, India engineers, Bangladeshi care assistants and Aussie Bar Keeps more “acceptable” than Polish Plumbers, Estonian Electricians, Swedish Engineers, Hungarian Computer Programmers and French Nurses ?
Ah, but all those dark people illegally sailing to Italy, or coming through Turkey, then making their way to the UK would be excluded if we weren't in the EU.
https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labours-trigger-ballot-system-works/
https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-to-avoid-failing-a-trigger-ballot/
Some light reading for anyone considering taking @dissonance’s comments at face value.
Bozos first trip to Ireland as PM?
What are the odds that there's a classic Johnson gaffe that hardens everyone's resolve?
Some light reading for anyone considering taking @dissonance’s comments at face value.
Feel free to actually list where I am wrong rather than trying to imply it.
Come on.
Give some facts.
Remember once a ****ing gain. The question is whether or not the fact momentum have it listed as an item on their list actually means anything. Not the finer details of what the full process means.
What are the odds that there’s a classic Johnson gaffe that hardens everyone’s resolve?
My money's on another 'Road to Mandalay' incident involving some Loyalist songs and a bowler hat.
😁
Feel free to actually list where I am wrong rather than trying to imply it.
As you said, you can’t be bothered with the details of how this process works, or how it is being used politically… for those that can be bothered, I provided some links that sketch out the basics.
unless they actually start voting people out.
Two things, thing one: why implement a change unless you expressly want to use it? Thing two, which battle do you the link the left of Labour is fighting? Long term control of the PLP, or beating the tories?
I provided some links that sketch out the basics.
No you finally bothered paying enough attention to find one highly partisan article.
You also missed all my references to the fact it could be used aggressively but lets deal with the context.
You and others got all excited over a tweet without having a clue as to the background, until you did a quick google now.
So whilst Johnson really is purging the tory party enmass from on high we have idiots comparing to Labour bringing their MP (re)selection process inline with the other parties (actually its still harder to deselect than for the others but hey why lets details get in the way).
Thing two,
I love leading questions like this. I would go for in general both although obviously there will be exceptions either way. After all its always more fun to hate someone with similar but slightly diverging views than someone with completely different views.
The same can be said of the centrists although I suspect there would be more exceptions in favour of the long term control of the party at least whilst it was under Cameron and co. As it is diving hard right the number will reduce.
To be fair to Labour, I'm not sure any MPs have been deselected have they? The Tories have managed to expel 21 in one go. Whereas, under the Labour leadership, their MPs have walked all by themselves.
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
I love leading questions like this
It isn't a leading question. I'm actually interested (amazing I know) what your thoughts on it are
You know like a discussion, rather than just stating argument positions
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
Oh no, absolutely not kelvin. How could such an innocent process be responsible for that? :o)
You don’t think that they were pushed out? And that the trigger ballot process was one of the key tools used to do that?
Certainly not in Mann's case.
In fact Mann is completely in sync with his constituents (EU). Mann has just been completely at odds with Corbyn from day one. That and a load of AS tittle tattle.
Mann has been the architect here.
I have never liked Mann, but that “tittle tattle” comment reminds me how one of Labour’s biggest problems is the way a small minority of those who seek to defend Corbyn, in all circumstances, respond to criticism of anything going on within the Labour ranks.
Thing two, which battle do you the link the left of Labour is fighting? Long term control of the PLP, or beating the tories?
Both I'd say, but one has to come before the other. The received wisdom that you can't beat the tories with left of centre policies is wrong. From day one I've seen the 'Corbyn' project as an effort to realign labour for the long term behind a pro-investment, progressive, redistributionist programme which looks something like a mix between Germany and the Scandinavian countries. To do that they need to abandon the short term election by election approach and look ahead, and they can only do that if they control* the party.
The problem with new labour was that they didn't see winning election as the means to an end, but the just the end. That's why they squandered they opportunity they had. Sure they made a lot of lives (temporarily) better by paying them off with benefits funded from borrowed money, but they didn't make any real attempt to radically change how our society and economics works so that it serves ordinary people. The labour leadership today are trying to do that, and it's a long term project.
*By 'control', what it really means is democratic control by the members, but seeing as the wishes of the membership and current leadership are tightly aligned it's pretty much the same.
Yup. Indeed there are examples of some of the dimmer ones thinking brexit would stop those Nigerians, ****stanis etc coming to the UK.
They haven't even noticed that since the referendum EU immigration has dropped but overall immigration is about the same - i.e. more non-EU. It's almost as if we need immigrant labour. Of course after no deal and the collapse of UK industry there won't be so many jobs to fill, so that'll fix it eh?
To do that they need to abandon the short term election by election approach and look ahead, and they can only do that if they control* the party.
& in the meantime whilst they are gaining control of the party whilst not defeating the Tories, Britain is crashing out of the EU thereby damaging the country in such a way as to make the socialist idyll much, much more difficult to achieve in the forseeable future. That's the plan?
Bercow's had enough. Off at the end of october
I loved this particular 'leak'
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1171046516452204544
which yougov have shotdown
either its a double double bluff & cummings is just preteding to be desperate or hes **** it
Im loving the rumours that bercow might not leave the speakers chair to keep parliament open
hes stepping down now so hes so crazy he might just do it
whilst they are gaining control of the party whilst not defeating the Tories
You can't beat the tories if you don't have the party behind you. That's one lesson learned from the New Labour period. It's highly ironic that the left are often accused of being the stalinists, for there was no better than Blair and Campbell at ruling with an iron fist. The difference between them and the current leadership, is that now they want the party to be a broader movement dedicated to a mission much bigger than simply keeping the tories out of power.
Iron fist?
However did Corbyn and others avoid that then?
However did Corbyn and others avoid that then?
Why enforce it when you have the numbers to ignore any troublemakers? Blair and Brown essentially dictated policy, and used Campbell to enforce message discipline around it. Lets not forget also that they imposed parliamentary candidates on constituencies with little or no consultation or discussion, and degraded the role of members to little more than subscribers and ovation providers at party conferences.
Seems we never lost our sovereignty.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/09/no-deal-brexit-officially-blocked-law-10711993/?ito=social
Woo!
Why enforce it when you have the numbers to ignore any troublemakers?
So, there was no iron fist, just a thumping great majority.
I wonder if this was in that infamous plan we weren't allowed to read on someone's desk.
so is Johnson gonna break the law?
I reckon he'll go try to get some sort of deal through then resign when it doesnt pass
give it a few years & he'll be rehabilitated by his usual columns in the torygraph, a spot on celebrity bake-off etc
So, there was no iron fist, just a thumping great majority.
Nope. More if you can have most MPs jumping to your tune (since they were mostly handpicked by you and have little or no local support) then you leave those few holdouts who have a lot of local support well alone. Especially if they rather inconveniently hold the same values as a large number of the members of the party and so going after them might prove rather painful.
Far better to just parachute in handpicked candidates to each constituency as it opens. If they have no local basis then they will be dependant on your whims.
Zut-alors!
( I dont believe it though)
so is Johnson gonna break the law?
Who knows. The problem is he is completely without scruples and its whatever suits him best. Although even then its unclear as to whether he is thinking short term or long term best interests. He might be dreaming of how Churchill had several bad periods but still came out well.
Then on top of that you have Cummings and co who want to burn things down so they can rebuild and its unclear how much influence they have on him. Whilst I doubt Johnson would want to be the one responsible for the destruction of the union or the tory party as it would look a bit shit in the history books who knows whether Cummings can convince him it would look good.
Not leaving on the 31st and having an election before leaving are still till favourites on Betfair.
so is Johnson gonna break the law?
Not a chance.
Even by the standards of an Old Etonian Tory MP, he really leads the world when it comes to looking after No1, so there's absolutely no chance he's going to risk prison on any crusade.
No, what he we wants is to be loved by his fans, it's the only thing that feeds his ego. Even if it's the off-duty football hooligans chanting his name as they throw barriers at the Police outside parliament.
He would love to get Brexit done, He'd really love to get No-Deal done by Jan 2020, he'd be forever in the good books of every super rich tax cheat in the UK if he could do that, but I don't think he even thinks he can pull that off now, so all this "over my dead body" posturing stuff is for the fan base. He'll make a huge amount of noise and fuss, but will stop short of doing anything that might actually lead to him seeing the inside of a Cell.
I wonder if he thinks about Jeffery Archer, he, like Johnson was a bullshit artist who managed to weasel his way to the top of the Tory party. Archer thought he was above the law and I've read even as he was convicted of Perjury did think he'd go to prison, until he did. Of course they made him a peer so, well wasn't all bad for him.
Lemon driZzle? That really is cheating.
@binnery - I guess it's pretty easy to keep track of 16 MPs.
Nicky Morgan has to be next to go?
anyone else enjoying gove having to declare not wanting to give info due to rights under the ECHR? 🙂
Grieve motion passed to disclose yellowhammer and prorogue info...
What does this practically mean though, if parly is due to close tonight?
It's means that BlowJo really shouldn't have expelled 21 of his MPs
Saw this from "Brexit News" being shared by a Pro-leave person on Facebook. Without wanting to sound overly dramatic it almost sounds like they're trying to incite civil war...
View: Bojo hints he could break the law rather than beg Brussels for another delay. A British Prime Minister who is willing to fight parliament on behalf of the people.
He is fast becoming a hero!
And he will go down in history as the greatest British PM ever!In fact, BoJo could become a greater PM than Churchill. The British Parliament is now full of William Joyce's who are, openly and without shame, behaving like Lord Haw-Haw himself.
The EU are a greater enemy to British sovereignty than their, Reich, founders ever were.
Johnson is up against, so many, things Churchill never was. For one, his own Parliement has been infiltrated by the enemy.
The EU is an advanced, ingrained establishment that has almost gained complete control of our country by stealth. It controls our politicians, our media, our academic institutions and by Common Purpose, mostly all of our public authorities.
This enemy has, over the last 40 years, with the help of corrupt politicians, bought Britain piece by piece! The plan was almost complete before Cameron "blew it" with the Referendum!
This is why, now, we see panic in Parliament! Remainers without shame, doing their dirty, underhanded, anti-democratic, anti-British, deeds in full view, without shame! These kinds of plots were always held behind closed doors. Not now, there is too much panic and not enough time to hide their swampy deeds.
If Boris becomes the Martyr of Brexit and does whatever it takes to rid Britain of EU rule, he will have stopped the enemies secret plan to conquor Great Britain, the ultimate prize being, The city of london and all the money it commands!
The same enemy who, when they realized they were going to lose WWII, they had to come up with another plan. They knew tanks, bombs and guns would always meet resistance so they had to think clever and go long. The EU was and is, simply, a Nazi trojan horse dressed up in, neo-liberal, colours that ALMOST went un-noticed!For Boris to fight alongside the British people, against this "enemy" and for him to beat them; will make Boris greater than Winston Churchill!
Whether you like brexit or not, you have to admit, Cummings and Boris have played an absolute belter. Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U, either by an adjusted May deal, or with a no deal. You have to tip your hat sometimes..
That's the internet that is
Pretty much 2 Wk’s time
Why, what's happening at the end of September? No Parliament sitting to vote on any form of WA, and no EU summit for any extension to be discussed. The only options for no deal are if the EU either don't offer any extension or parliament vote not to accept the extension they offer.
DONE with the E.U, either by an adjusted May deal
Lol! You should probably recall that May's deal effectively keeps us fully in the EU until we can resolve other issues, I. E. The backstop, with the caveat we become a silent partner sitting on our hands.
Personally I'd take that over a no deal scenario, but "done with the EU"? Hahaha!
Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U, either by an adjusted May deal, or with a no deal.
Neither of those are possible in “pretty much 2 Wk’s time”… even if they are 2 of the most likely outcomes… at some point. And neither of them take us out of the orbit of a large trading and standards setting body, or remove our borders with it.
Whether you like brexit or not, you have to admit, Cummings and Boris have played an absolute belter. Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U, either by an adjusted May deal, or with a no deal. You have to tip your hat sometimes..
Nope sorry he's destroyed his own party, made a need for a law to come into effect meaning no deal is illegal, suspended parliament trying to be clever which backfired and in 2 weeks time parliament will still suspended so nothing will be done.
maybe our new brexiter can give us a few more details ............
What's blojos negative majority standing at currently?
Cummings and Boris have played an absolute belter. Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U,
They haven't and we won't.
If this is trolling, it's woeful.
If you actually believe it, you're deluded.
And with that they threw the dup under the bus
Whether you like brexit or not, you have to admit, Cummings and Boris have played an absolute belter. Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U, either by an adjusted May deal, or with a no deal. You have to tip your hat sometimes..
I’ve read some drek on here, but this is surely amongst the most deluded 🙈
DONE with the E.U
😂😂😂
Funniest quote of the day
Neg 10mps.... Fatality!!
Finish them!
If this is trolling, it’s woeful.
That did cross my mind but then I realised he probably is a Brexit supporter they're really clutching at straws since they found out what democracy and Sovereignty is.
Pretty much 2 Wk’s time and we will be DONE with the E.U,
How's that then?
Nope sorry he’s destroyed his own party
Thing is from Cummings viewpoint that isnt necessarily a bad thing.
Obviously brexit and damage to our political system is the best outcome but short of that damaging the political system by destroying the tory party and spreading general hate, bile and mistrust is a win.
Cummings doesn’t give a toss about the Tory party.
It’s just another part of ‘the establishment’ that needs to be destroyed
He’s just someone who wants to torch everything and watch the world burn
He isn’t offering any answers or solutions as to what comes next
Cummings doesn’t give a toss about the Tory party.
Yup. Got to wonder how the interview went with the traditional where do you see yourself in five years"
"laughing at the few remaining torys crying as their party goes extinct along with all the others"
"good good. When can you start?"
He isn’t offering any answers or solutions as to what comes next
Thats not entirely true. If you look at his blog he has plenty of ideas. Its just they are mostly just copy and pastes of other peoples ideas with no real indication of how to apply them to the Uk political system.
Thats probably best discussed on the Should Cummings resign thread though.
The interview went ok because Boris doesn’t give a toss about the Tory party either
Just a convenient temporary vehicle for both their oversized egos
https://twitter.com/libdems/status/1171169901198872576?s=21
A laughed at the “majority” bit… and then realised that as no one is likely to get a majority, all policy proclamations from them are just as open to being squeezed into something else by Parliament… and LibDems probably wise (they’ve been burnt more than others) to make it clear that delivery depends on which other parties they have to work with. All policies have to be mutable in a hung parliament… be upfront about it…
looking like Johnson is going to try resuscitate mays deal, with NI only backstop, & stuff the dup....
A. will we get our bribe back?
B. will the Dumbojo fan club vote for it?
C. will my chocolate be subject to tariffs?
Has Cummings given Johnson a bomb to drop into the debate tonight?
Maybe he got them to behave like spoilt brats shouting away.
Really is a tad depressing watching it.
Especially with all the tories announcing about how the people should have the say but dont extend that to the brexit vote.
I don't think so, Johnson looks pissed and powerless.