[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

While UK politicians drown in BS and self indulgent posturing at least we can turn to the Italian PM for a dose of common sense

Bravo Paulo Gentiloni.

Yep, all down to the EU, nowt at all to do with those British and American tanks sitting on the Rhine for seventy years

And what do you think that the creation of the Coal agreement in the 1950, did to prevent war between the two traditional western European superpowers. a) did not provide a reassurance of peace, or b) prevented war, which up until that point had happened 3 times in recent memory?

Probably worth reviewing [url= http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html ]Churchill's 1946 speech[/url].

He seemed to think peace would need more than tanks and he called for a [i]"United States of Europe" ..."which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship" ..."to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom."[/i]

There also needs to be a political, economic and cultural will not to use those tanks on other Western European countries.

There is no doubt in my mind at all that closer trade and political ties between European nations diminishes the possibility of conflict between them (nothing to do with Russia).

In which case Ninfan has missed out the French tanks in Germany, unless he includes them in "our" as part of the EU.

He just mentioned those under NATO military command.

Igm, WWI broke out between 2 military alliances. During the Cold War, the nations of Western Europe (and more importantly North America) were united in the same military alliance. I’d suggest that the political union that became the EU certainly played its part in meshing them together, but NATO (and it’s nuclear weapons more than its tanks) was the decisive factor in stopping the Cold War turning hot.
Tj, you can make that argument against any military deterrence task. Deterrent is better than war, no?

He just mentioned those under NATO military command.

The tanks down the rhine after WWII were there four years before NATO existed, and they were US, French and British. Ninfan needs to more clearly explain what he's talking about.

Anyhow, as others have said, there has been peace in Europe during the EU years and as nations join the peaceful area expands. The lack of trade wars is major factor in peace, or looking at another way trade tensions have previously contributed to friction and war.

Britain's politicians have spent the last 18 months declaring a trade war on the EU witl clearly stated plans to tip the playing field in the UK's favour by making labour and taxes cheaper and dismantling legislation thats "hampers" industry through better, healthier and safer working condtions. And the safety of food, drugs... .

No they have not. In fact the whole past week saw the issue of what equivalence etc. might meant etc

Our regulatory regime across many sectors will remain closely aligned. Why wouldn’t it? It would be stupid to have domestic standards that differed a lot from those in export markets.

More unnecessary scare stories

It would be stupid to have domestic standards that differed a lot from this in export markets.

Doesn't that mostly apply to physical goods though THM?

The goods we export will still have to meet certain standards in the countries we export to, so it makes sense to stay closely aligned there.

But as far as I know there is nothing to say that, for example, the workers making those goods need to abide by an equivalent of the European Working Time Directive. Is there?

Has the right-wing press gone into meltdown this morning? Does the Daily Heil have the single word [b]TRAITORS!!![/b] as a headline, with the rebels photographs and a snipers cross-hairs over the top of them?

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

(In specific areas there is some regulatory arbitrage across Europe and there will still be room for fudges with Basel 4 regulation)

Hence the EBA and EMA stories were massively exaggerated for effect.

I don't honestly think Davies can do anything right now. He's like a spider that's had all its legs pulled off.

🙂

I think what we are seeing again and again is that Labour are running a much tighter ship than the Tories can dream of right now, it was the same in the election, Corbyn drove the narrative and The Tories just u-turned & squabbled, May has been undermined by her Brexiteer MPs at every turn (Patel, Gove, Johnson, Mogg, etc)
while safely out of power Labour were able to maintain their constructive ambiguity (good one DD!) over Brexit and ran a far more disciplined, yet genuine campaign.
Yesterday only 2 Labour MPs defied the whip, the Tories were lucky it was only 11 and now bitter recriminations are being lashed out as May has to go to Brussels looking even weaker.

Funny thing is a year ago we were being told it was Labour in chaos & the Tories were all about strength & stability !

Double post, but see also the sex scandal stiff labour have chakrabati'd their scandals while May has Damien Green locked in a cupboard somewhere, unsure when to let him out for fear of the kick-back (and presumably a big pile of crusty tissues to deal with)

No they have not.

I was quoting the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, the best source of government policy for foreigners:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/

So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum 😉

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

A few years ago Britain was trying to dismantle financial regulation from within the EU claiming it would increase EU GDP. Fortunately the other EU states realised it would only benefit the City and **** everyone else.

Nope

GrahamS - Member

But as far as I know there is nothing to say that, for example, the workers making those goods need to abide by an equivalent of the European Working Time Directive. Is there?

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

Are we all enjoying the rebels/traitors being denounced for their disloyalty by the likes of John Redwood and Bill Cash?

You really couldn't make it up, could you? 😆

No services is another obvious example. The UK has been at the forefront of regulatory developments in financial services and our regulation is closely aligned with EU

But is there any reason that it [i]has[/i] to be. Obviously customers in the EU will need to meet their own local legal requirements.

But if, as a hyperbolic example, a European customer uses a UK call centre service, do they (legally) care what hours the staff work, what equality laws protect them etc?

How do we keep enough regulatory alginment with the EU such that there is no border in Ireland, but also be able to conduct trade deals with other counties, like the US for example, which may want to us to allow chlorine washed chicken (or something else illegal in the EU). What stops it going across the border into the EU? This whole thing seems impossible.

Democracy failed when David Cameron decided to hold the referendum and allow people to vote for something that isn't (at the moment) possible to achieve.

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

I'd be interested to see how they will enforce that. Most of Europe (including the UK) seems happy enough to buy goods from countries where working conditions are less than ideal.

Hence the EBA and EMA stories were massively exaggerated for effect.

Oh, that’s good news. I hadn't heard that they had cancelled their plans to leave.

Democracy failed when David Cameron decided to hold the referendum

😀

nope

Every time you write "nope" you're plain wrong, THM.

Self-consumed malcontents 😆

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GrahamS - Member

The EU have made it 100% clear that they will not allow undercutting by a reduction in standards. WTD may well come under that.

I'd be interested to see how they will enforce that. Most of Europe (including the UK) seems happy enough to buy goods from countries where working conditions are less than ideal.

The difference is that if there is undercutting / dumping from outside the EU the EU can put tarriffs on the products. This is the mechanism the EU will use if the UK tries it.

The EU wil take the quality stuff from overseas to meet its standards and you can have the cheap rank rotten stuff that meets the UK's lower standards.

On the contrary Ed your link does not support your incorrect observation. But thanks for falsifying your own point

That is the only thing that links with the idea of “every time”....

Deliberate twisting information Is very bad for informed debate.

Deliberate twisting information Is very bad for informed debate.

Other people on this thread can read and make up their minds who is "deliberately twisting information" and refusing to recognise the dreadful truths about what (mainly) Tory politicians have been saying and trying to do.

Sun's out in paradise, my local taxes have paid to heat an oudoor 50m pool, best go and make the most of the generosity of my fellow citizens and being in a place where profit isn't the only reason for doing anything and everything. Have a look around you, what do you see?

They can indeed - your link doesn’t even address the topic under discussion. At best Fallon talks about how a lack of competition harms the supply of credit to smaller firms. You are making up the rest.

A lovely sunny view, and lots of hard working, talented people who are paid to tell he truth not make things up. Great panorama.

Fallon also talks about markets and competition helping customers then illustrates it (as a good idea!) with an example where government interference allows less efficient but smaller companies to flourish.

Ed - I don’t think your link really addresses the earlier points. It does expose Fallon as an imbecile though.

Talking about "working conditions for labour", isn't China the elephant in the room?

Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

But no change in terms of distorting reality to make false points. Uk has been at the heart of EU regulation for financial services. London’s position as #1 global financial centre is based on other positive factors

Oh yes, Ninfan. Treaty of Brussels. NATO comes later.

Airtragic - WWI not as simple as you suggest. Multiple treaties forming a couple of loose webs that over the course of the war might come to be seen as alliances but didn’t start that way. Also my point was about peace within Western Europe (ie particularly UK, Germanic states, France) not going to war every 30 years. NATO does play a part along side ECHR, EU (and predecessors), but even there it arguably started as a political organisation that morphed into a military alliance.

Armies can win wars, they are less good at keeping people together other than by suppression.

So we end up with Labour delivering Brexshit - Jezza will be delighted at the strength of the underground momentum

[url= https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/12/12/voting-intention-conservatives-42-labour-41-10-11-/ ]Long on babble - short on facts..[/url]

I don't think JC is in any danger of getting the keys to No 10 just yet - but keep spreading the lies..

teamhurtmore - Member
Amazed at Ed’s choice of website. Is that one on his favourites bar?!?

Dunno. But I’m tempted to if they lampoon their own folk in that sort of high brow satirical way.

Oh wait a minute, Fallon wasn’t serious when he wrote something with that big a hole in the fundamental argument was he?

After all this and the polls suggest that - how bad must the oppo be??

THM - now I know you’re trolling. Quick stick a smiley on it. 😉

On the contrary - genuine question. We have a gov in disarray on their usual blow up topic (EU) a weakening economy, stagnant real wage growth etc one would not expect polls to be indicating what the link suggests unless the oppo was very weak indeed

And what’s not to like with a Jobs First Brexshit?

how bad must the oppo be??

Genuine non-bickering question to the whole of STW. I haven't got a UK vote but if I had, which party should some who believes in EU membership, a fair progressive tax system, equality in education and health, a high level of pulic services ans state owneership fo monopoly service providers vote for?

Britain needs a new political party. France got one in a year, surely this is a opportunity for some enlightened humanists to start a new party.

Edukator, we have that pretty much in the Lib Dems. Unfortunately the masses are of the opinion that they were entirely to blame for every misdemeanour encountered during our brief flirtation with a coalition government.

edit: random duplicate post

Edukator. SNP

THM - if that poll didn’t support your argument of the morning then you’d be cautioning against looking at one poll. That’s why I’m suggesting you’re playing.

On the other hand, when you check the right/wrong to leave polls (see questions below) they are all currently (and for many months) pro-remain.
The government is doing something the country doesn’t want.
Democracy needs to get its act together.

If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union, or leave the European Union?